pchapman 278 #26 June 12, 2008 I saw an interesting situation once in Canada. The DZO didn't have a commercial licence, but flew the occasional load. Everyone considered it normal. He figured it was justified because all the Operations Manual paperwork, which was approved by the government, shows him as the Chief Pilot. The legality may be a iffy when it comes to having to fulfill all the applicable regulations. But he can say that the government, who knows what licence he has, specifically allowed the company to do things a certain way according to the Operations Manual, and that includes him flying... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bfilarsky 0 #27 June 12, 2008 The only way for a private pilot to legally let people jump out of an airplane is if he is paying for the entire flight himself. There is no common purpose - the pilot himself is not skydiving, so he has no other reason to go to 13k and back down again. Therefore, he cannot even accept pro-rata shares from the jumpers. There is no club exception. But, if the pilot pays for the flight (and follows the other regs for dropping jumpers, such as having a NOTAM filed, etc) then it is perfectly legal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #28 June 12, 2008 Quote Sparky you know I agree with you most of the time but please tell me when did turning on each other ever benefit the sport of skydiving? Ok, I'm not Sparky but I'd like to respond. I thought skydiving was self regulating and self policing? So when were people going to bring this up and get it straightened out? And let me say I've been on some planes with some "old timers" that scared the shit out of me too! It goes both ways. I'd like to have experienced people be the example on how to follow the rules and operate above board that way they can expect the people around them to operate above board. When we accept a little violation there and a little violation here where does it end? There are minor infractions and major infractions I'll agree. But in my book this is a MAJOR infraction. And the FAA usually thinks so too. You want more FAA scrutiny? Stuff like this happening is EXACTLY what is going to bring more of it on. It's just going to take the right Inspector who's buddies with the right Senator to get things changed. Are we going to clean our own house or have others do it for us? No one is turning on anyone other than someone clearly violating the FARs in a big way for a lot of years. What else was overlooked? It can only leave me wondering. Get your house in order and it takes away ALL of these questions. You people out there listening? I hope so.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #29 June 12, 2008 QuoteSparky you know I agree with you most of the time but please tell me when did turning on each other ever benefit the sport of skydiving? Where do you draw the line on how illegal a DZO operates before you feel taken advantage of? As I posted before, if the DZO/pilot can’t be bothered meeting the requirements but still conducts his business as if he has that means he is lying to his customers and stealing their money by charging for his services. I don’t know about you but I get piss when someone lies to me. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #30 June 12, 2008 You did not answer My question Michael... QuoteWould you rather jump from a plane with a pilot who has over 10,000 hours flying jumpers and a private license...(who may also have thousands of skydives as well) Or some green horn rookie with a commercial rating who has never flown a jump pane before? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #31 June 12, 2008 Quote Quote Sparky you know I agree with you most of the time but please tell me when did turning on each other ever benefit the sport of skydiving? Ok, I'm not Sparky but I'd like to respond. I thought skydiving was self regulating and self policing? So when were people going to bring this up and get it straightened out? And let me say I've been on some planes with some "old timers" that scared the shit out of me too! It goes both ways. I'd like to have experienced people be the example on how to follow the rules and operate above board that way they can expect the people around them to operate above board. When we accept a little violation there and a little violation here where does it end? There are minor infractions and major infractions I'll agree. But in my book this is a MAJOR infraction. And the FAA usually thinks so too. You want more FAA scrutiny? Stuff like this happening is EXACTLY what is going to bring more of it on. It's just going to take the right Inspector who's buddies with the right Senator to get things changed. Are we going to clean our own house or have others do it for us? No one is turning on anyone other than someone clearly violating the FARs in a big way for a lot of years. What else was overlooked? It can only leave me wondering. Get your house in order and it takes away ALL of these questions. You people out there listening? I hope so. I totally agree with you Chris, if we don't police ourselves then someone else will step in and it usually takes an incident to get the "ahem" conversation going. But in this particular case we get so much knee jerk reaction that most people lose sight of reality. Lets say you have a large commercial dropzone that does everything by the book and has 10 fatalities over a ten year period... no problem right? But then some whacko kills himself at a small Dz where fatalities are rare or unheard of and now all of the sudden we have to act? Lets all just jump on the bandwagon and fry this guy? Sorry, but rules are broken every day in this sport. Sometimes it means nothing and other times people scramble to make sure thier logs are complete. That is reality. Faa offices also interpret rules differently from region to region. I know for a fact the some DZ's have been given the green light to use private pilots as long as they were not paid while others considered building flight hours as compensation. What may be considered illegal in New York might get by as A-OK in Montana. Wink-wink Would a different certificate changed the outcome of this incident? Would a pilot rig changed the outcome of this incident? Would an AAd made things possibly worse? I mean come on, we could what if this thing to death but one thing is for sure in my mind and that is the pilot was not responsible. He did not push the guy out, he did not want to kill him, he wanted to save his life by landing him safely to the ground. That was Bobs intention from the moment he let that dork get on the plane. We have to stand behind Bob and that is what I intend to do. This was not his fault! Can you even imagine what it would be like to land that 182 after what just happened? Show just a little compassion people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #32 June 12, 2008 Pilots, could you please explain to me what the added value of a commercial rating over a private one is? What's the difference?"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #33 June 12, 2008 QuoteYou did not answer My question Michael... QuoteWould you rather jump from a plane with a pilot who has over 10,000 hours flying jumpers and a private license...(who may also have thousands of skydives as well) Or some green horn rookie with a commercial rating who has never flown a jump pane before? To answer your question. I want someone who is honest and has some degree of integrity. I have never met or even heard of a private pilot with 10,000 hours and having thousands of skydives does not make a good pilot. We will have to agree to disagree on this one. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #34 June 12, 2008 Quote Lets all just jump on the bandwagon and fry this guy? Um no. It's too bad a nut case choose to ruin Bob's day. However Bob knew that the FAA did not take a faviorable view of his use of a PPL to fly jumpers, by being busted once before for that very act,maybe he should have moved to Montana, then. So he very well knew the risk involved in repeating the act again for another 14 years, and in fact he is quite lucky that he got away with it as long as he did. However the very risk of any accident getting the FAA to snoop around his neck of the woods was always there. It could have been a run out of fuel and crash in town or a mid air with a MD 80 or any other host of shit that would have the Fed's poking around and asking questions. He & he alone was willing to take that risk, again, and lost. Sucks to be you, comes to mind. He should have made sure his duck's were in a row and i's dotted and t's crossed so that if any accident were to happen or even a simple ramp check would not yeild him a big pain in the ass called the FAA. If you roll the dice, you might just lose. I'm sorry the dz had to deal with the shock and truma of such an event, but I don't feel sorry a gambler who was willing to risk another dealing with the FAA by choosing to be uncompliant repetedly. We didn't throw Bob under the bus, he let it get parked on him by the FAA, by his own choice.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
donutair 0 #35 June 12, 2008 Experience and training. Same thing as an A license vs. a D license. You want to do rw with someone who has 25 jumps or 500?Life's the Pitts at Invertedair.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Armour666 0 #36 June 12, 2008 QuoteYou did not answer My question Michael... QuoteWould you rather jump from a plane with a pilot who has over 10,000 hours flying jumpers and a private license...(who may also have thousands of skydives as well) Or some green horn rookie with a commercial rating who has never flown a jump pane before? I would take the comercial rating why, if I land off and cause some sort of damages the USPA insurance coverage WOULD NOT BE VALID or even worse if I go in and there are damages I don;t want my estate to be target of a lawsuit to recover damages but my family in a position they shouldn't have to be in. From the USPA website. Insurance programs “This insurance is valid for skydives made in accordance with USPA's Basic Safety Requirements and the Federal Aviation Regulations. Most drop zones assure that jumpers have this type of insurance by requiring current USPA membership to jump there. All claims must be brought in the U.S. or Canada.” All the experience in the world won't stop a inshurance company from trying to recover thier money or prevent a payout if they can help it. Thats my reasonSO this one time at band camp..... "Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CazmoDee 3 #37 June 12, 2008 I'd do RW with someone with only 25 jumps.I'm behind the bar at Sloppy Joe's....See ya in the Keys! Muff 4313 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #38 June 12, 2008 QuotePlaying devils advocate here but let me ask you this; Would you rather jump from a plane with a pilot who has over 10,000 hours flying jumpers and a private license...(who may also have thousands of skydives as well) If said pilot has 10,000 hours and is such a great pilot why can't he get a comercial ticket? It should be an easy task in that case. If they won't get that ticket for financial reasons, or simply to thumb their nose at the rules... then what other corners are getting cut for financial reasons, and what other rules are being ignored."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #39 June 12, 2008 QuoteLets all just jump on the bandwagon and fry this guy? Yeah, that's the way it works. Here's another example - A rig is out of date by a day. The jumper shows up at the DZ, and his rigger (who packed it the first time) goes ahead and pencil packs it for him so he can jump for the weekend. The rigger will do the actual repack on Monday. Is the rig any safer with the new signature than before? No, it's the same rig. What the rig is with the new signature is legal. If something should go wrong, quite literally, the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed. It's the same thing with pilots and the commercial cert. Indeed, in many cases there are ppl holders who are ten times the aviators of some of the 21 year old comm pilots with 251 hours who are trying to dry the ink on their cert. However, the 21 year old kid is legal, and if something should go wrong, again, the paperwork is in order. As far as the witch hunt goes, this is not a witch hunt. A witch hunt implies that the hunted has done nothing wrong, and is beign unjustly persued by the mob. In this case, the hunted has proven themsleves to be a witch, and deserve to be hunted. I mean, come on, this guy has been busted and had his ticket pulled for this in the past. You think this guy deserves any slack? In terms of the 'community' goes, anyone knowingly breaking the rules would get the same treatment if the shit hit the fan. We're all grown ups here, we know the rules and we know what can happen when we break them. If you choose to operate that way, repeatedly, be ready to man up and take what you've got coming. Don't want the fallout? It's easy, toe the line, and it will never be your burden. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #40 June 12, 2008 Thanks Strato, I always enjoy your pep talks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #41 June 12, 2008 Scott, you know I like and respect you a lot, but differ with you on this one. If someone wants to do a job, any job, they need to look into the qualifications and meet the qualifications in order to perform the duties of that job. In this case specifically, he did not have the qualifications from both the commercial license and the updated medical. It doesn't mean he's unsafe, but it does mean that he is too lazy/cheap/rebellious/unqualified/unhealthy/whatever to persue doing his job legally, and any one of those reasons can affect his piloting skills and judgement. The rules are in place, not a secret, aren't unreasonable in nature, there's no reason not to follow them. We really do need to take care of each other, keep each other in line, and evaluate ourselves so that things like the FAA coming down on the head of a pilot/DZO/jumper don't happen. This situation makes all of us as jumpers (and even moreso for DZOs) look bad. You know that the most dangerous people out there in any field are the ones that don't know what they don't know. At least following the rules (via commercial rating or whatever) proves some degree of competency and knowledge base. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bfilarsky 0 #42 June 12, 2008 Quote Pilots, could you please explain to me what the added value of a commercial rating over a private one is? What's the difference? Picking nits here, but technically its a certificate. Certificates you can get include Sport pilot, private pilot, commercial pilot, ATP, rigger, A&P, etc. A rating is for a type of aircraft, say ASEL (Airplane Single Engine Land) AMEL (multi), etc. Now to answer your question, about the only thing a commercial certificate says is that the pilot has 250 hours (there is an exception with pilot mill type training, technically called Part 141, in which case I believe its around 200 hours or so) and can fly an airplane to the standards you would expect someone with those hours to be able to. The checkride is pretty easy (Of all the checkrides I've done, including private, instrument, commercial & CFI, it was the easiest) You only need 40 hours for a private pilot. As for the comparison to skydiving, I would consider it more like a C license, as there is a certificate beyond commercial, which is ATP (Airline Transport Pilot) which required 1500 hours. As for privileges, a commercial pilot can get a flight instructor certificate and teach, they can be paid to fly an aircraft which is provided by someone else (they can't provide an aircraft and contract service in it, without an air charter or air carrier certificate), or they can engage in a few operations specifically mentioned by the FAA, one of which is flying skydivers. Clear as mud? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,882 #43 June 12, 2008 QuoteQuotePlaying devils advocate here but let me ask you this; Would you rather jump from a plane with a pilot who has over 10,000 hours flying jumpers and a private license...(who may also have thousands of skydives as well) If said pilot has 10,000 hours and is such a great pilot why can't he get a comercial ticket? It should be an easy task in that case. . Who said he can't get one? More like won't, or doesn't need one. I'm a private pilot with an instrument rating (which is significantly harder than a commercial) and a glider rating and 1200 hours as "pilot in command", 900 in a "complex" airplane. Why don't I have a commercial? Because I have absolutely no need for one, any more than I have need for a license to drive a semi or a bus. If I wanted to fly jumpers or do crop spraying, I'd get a commercial certificate.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
duroejc 0 #44 June 12, 2008 My priority is Commercial Cert. then more hours. To me the CPC demonstrates a basic level of competance, if the pilot has that level of competance- they should demonstrate it. If it is required for the type of flight flown- they should have it. I have no qualifications to evaluate anyone's flying skill or ability- as do most of the posters here- that is why a structured method is in place to do that with people who are. If you disagree with the need for a CPC for skydiving operations - then there are avenues to appeal that- Yes- Peckerhead we all make mistakes but it is evident that after being sanctioned for operating without a CPC once before this pilot continues to blatently do so. That to me is a separate issue- one of integrity and one that raises questions and doubts about what other self-proclaimed frivolous regulations are being skirted. I've read in the other posts how this pilot/DZO is a great guy who has a full refrigerator of food every weekend at the DZ- very nice - but to me I'd rather skip the hugs and hotdogs and know that the planes, pilot, manifest and all phases of the skydive operation are managed to be both safe and compliant. You think folks like me are polking this guy and the DZ in the eye- I think the oposite- I care about his safety, buiness reputation, personal assets, and the skydivers at D-burg - it appears more than they do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #45 June 12, 2008 You have been jumping 8 years, Bob has been jumping 37 years. Keep it up, you only have 29 years to go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #46 June 12, 2008 Quote Who said he can't get one? More like won't, or doesn't need one. Well, actually this guy did need one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #47 June 12, 2008 Glad I could cheer you up. All kidding aside, if I was to lie my way on to a dz as a tandem I, (I don;t have a TI rating) after all I have dressed an ton of students and packed a ton of TDM rigs as a rigger, so I know the system in a out & filmed a bunch so I know the dive flow, but I took you mother up and did a hook turn and killed her, would you not expect me as well as those who didn't check to see if I met the requirements to face the fire? I don't really want to see this dude fried, sounds like a nice guy with a full fridge, and I really do think it sucks that this moron used him and his plane and dz to off himself. But the bottom line is it was his choice to not meet the requirements he knew he had been busted before for and there was a very good chance the same FSDO inspectors could bust him again at anytime, accident or no accident, a simple ramp check by the Fed's. As a small business owner myself I can't see taking such a risk as that, one that could not olny make the press and look bad to the public, but one that could keep my business from earnng money while my ticket is pulled for 45 to 90 or forever. There used to be a crazy ass DZo in Longmont Colorado, who if I remember right had the Fed's take his airmans C for life or he never had one ever, anyway he was busted time and time again and they told him if you keep it up were going to really bust your ass! Well he kept flying jumpers and one day the US Marshalls showed up and placed him under arrest and took him away and he did time in the Federal pen. I assume the time Bob was busted he was told to get his shit together or face action again, he didn't listen to good advice from the ruling party. you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
duroejc 0 #48 June 12, 2008 Relavence of time in sport to this discussion? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #49 June 12, 2008 QuoteRelavence of time in sport to this discussion? None! SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #50 June 12, 2008 Ok, I'll try to put this another way why I view it the way I do. The Caravan crashed in the NW on a ferry flight with nine jumpers. I started to talk about possible icing conditions. I have not flown a caravan in icing conditions (even though I have training on plenty of other aircraft that can). There is specific training required by Cessna for flying Caravans in icing conditions to be legal. Now, my training on other planes should suffice right? Wrong. My wife convinced me to take the online training Cessna put together (fifty bucks of my own cost and I don't fly the damn thing) JUST so I could have a point to talk from when recommending the training. And I LEARNED something. I am approaching 9,000 hours. I have an ATP. And taking a training course TAUGHT me something. I'm sure Bob is an accomplished stick and rudder guy and a nice DZO. But he didn't comply with the regs and he was already suspended once before. First offense I can grumble a little. Second infraction? It makes the whole sport look like a bunch of loose cannons.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites