My 3rd cutaway went not ideal, thoughts?

[unkulunkulu 0]

Hello, everyone.
I just wanted to share my experience with you and hear your thoughts and suggestions.
So here goes.
Jump #703, first of the day, 20th since January. Main canopy Odyssey 130 (elliptical canopy comparable to Crossfire) wl 1.6, 40th jump on the canopy, previous experience about 250 jumps on Sabre 2 135.
A bit cold outside at about 0 C on the ground, so using winter gloves with additional thin gloves underneath.

1. Breakoff at 1300m, pitch at 1000m
2. Line twists, altitude about 800 (neptune shows 0.8), decided to work on them.
3. Actually worked out of them at about 600m (in the video neptune shows 0.6, the audible is silent, set to 600m), but the canopy continues rotation.
Trying to stop the rotation, gather that my riser input doesn't help, hoping to get the toggles unstowed before hard deck.
[I'm waiting for the audible here, not looking at the alti :(]
4. Only have time/mental capacity to unstow one toggle, time to cutaway.
5. The helmet shield is fogged up, hindering the ability to clearly see the toggles. Getting one hand on each toggle, but not sure I grabbed the cutaway handle firmly enough, use the left hand to assist in cutting away. Forget/unable to LOOK at the reserve handle, cutting away 3 secs after the decision to do it was made.
6. From experience of two previous cutaways (both from partial mals on the same system), start A BIT TOO LAZILY looking for reserve handle, thinking 'nah, the RSL will beat me to it'. In the process understand that RSL doesn't work for too long, starting to look for the reserve handle MORE ACTIVELY, unable to clearly see it, find it along the MLW, pull it, in the saddle by about 200m. Took about 5 secs from cutaway to pulling silver.
7. Assess winds, make sure the power lines on the right don't continue invisibly to underneath me, land into the wind.

The reserve loop is not cut however the CYPRES did fire probably during saddling.

Well, a lot happened on this jump. Talk about chains of events/decisions.

On the RSL subject: found the rsl shackle open and still attached to the reserve risers. Found a snapshot from a video from a friend in the plane, shows RSL attached when I'm out of the door.

Some conclusions I drew (a better word would be better understood the training) for myself, hopefully in the order of importance:
1. RSL's really do malfunction! They don't lie on the FJC! Don't count on them/relax because you know you have one/wait for them to activate. Make an objective to pull silver as quickly as possible after the cutaway.
2. More attention on explicit altitude awareness, had I seen 0.6 with my own eyes, I would have cutaway good 100m higher.
3. LOOK silver, lock it in the vision prior to cutting away (if using two hands on the handle), the objective is to pull the silver at the highest possible altitude, not cutaway ASAP and then spend time in freefall looking for it.
4. A weird idea to 'get in actions' before cutaway altitude. Somehow I thought that trying every trick I know before cutaway altitude is a good idea. Now that I think of it just unstowing the toggles in itself just before cutaway altitude is counterproductive: will probably increase canopy rotation speeds and not enough time to stop the rotation anyway: better concentrate on correctly performing EPs.
5. Spend more time in a hanging harness, I had two cutaways almost in a row two years ago, went quite well and fun, slacked a bit on this since then, probably used the hanging harness 5 or 6 times.
6. Reinforce the sensation of the cutaway handle in thicker winter gloves, not just 'simulate' cutting away and be done with it. Would have helped with performing the EPs more confidently.
7. Spend less time after breakoff and before pulling in smaller groups, quickly flare, wave off, deploy, saves a bit of extra altitude.
8. The thing with the canopy continuing rotation after clearing the linetwists. The 'input' on the rear I made is clearly not enough in this situation, if I count on it stopping the rotation I should do it much stronger and probably concentrate on eliminating any weight shifts in the harness from before.
An interesting catch with the toggles is that if the canopy is rotating to the left it's arguably more important to unstow the left toggle, on this jump I instinctively thought that once the right rear didn't do the job, I should unstow the right toggle. Probably the correct objective is to unstow both. My action of just unstowing the right one probably only made things worse :)


Don't really know what exactly to do with the fogging up visor during the execution of the EPs, probably know how to find the handles with limited vision, but this comes from my own experience, I think now I know how to do it, not a universal advice...

While the video is not as dramatic as can be found on the internet, this jump opened my eyes on a lot of things. Getting the cypress to fire on a jump is not a good idea I guess.
Hopefully my experience and mistakes could be useful to someone.
Any advise/corrections are welcome, thanks for your time :)

Will upload the video in 12 hours, having a slow upload link here. Attached photos in the plane, rsl looks connected.

[pchapman 261]

Just a total wild guess on the RSL getting opened:

Pics show RSL sitting with the pull tab facing outboard. As the risers are cutaway, the larger ring on the riser flips down, and smacks the pull tab ring, disconnecting the RSL.

It is at least a newer looking RSL, not like an old all brass one that could be a little sticky and not closed entirely.

One could have hooked up the RSL facing the other way. Yet I've never seen this ever mentioned as an issue to watch for. But RSLs can flop around, and including moving around facing 'the wrong way', even if hooked up facing the right direction.

However: It seems that hooking the RSL in from back to front in the riser ring, keeps it from rotating around easily and makes it harder for the tab to end up facing outboard. I think that method of hooking up the RSL may be superior?

In general RSLs aren't well restrained and finding the pull tab could be tricky if one expects it to be in the same place all the time.

[unkulunkulu 0]

Quote

It is at least a newer looking RSL, not like an old all brass one that could be a little sticky and not closed entirely.

My RSL is actually of the brass kind, like in this photo: http://blueskiesmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/TonyHathaway-RSL-.jpg

Probably looks white on one of the photos as a consequence of the photo being a picture of a screen showing the video.

I was told by a rigger afterwards that the RSL could be in a "not completely closed" state. Will check it more thoroughly from now on. I was in fact disconnecting the rsl the previous evening along with the three rings to check the length of the white loop on the risers as I read an article on this recently.

Quote

However: It seems that hooking the RSL in from back to front in the riser ring, keeps it from rotating around easily and makes it harder for the tab to end up facing outboard. I think that method of hooking up the RSL may be superior?

Good point, I thought about differences between the ways to attach the RSL but didn't think about that.

[chuckakers 370]

unkulunkulu

Don't really know what exactly to do with the fogging up visor....

I've always had issues with a fogging visor. I have found that cleaning it really well with rubbing alcohol and a soft cotton cloth works like a dream (fogging is typical much worse if the surface has dirt or oils on it - even a little). I know some manufacturers limit what they consider acceptable cleaning products, but whatever. I use what works.

Keep some cleaning supplies in your gear bag and re-clean at the first sign of fogging.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[pchapman 261]

Hooking up RSL back to front:

I think that was something I just did because it seemed better, without thinking of it as an explicit rule.

(For it to swing facing the wrong way, it is easy if hooked up front to back. If back to front, it would have to lift up and over the top of the riser ring to do so, and more easily fall back into the normal position. Hard to describe but easy to see if one plays with an RSL.)

I checked some manuals:
For Vector, Wings, Javelin, Icon, Mirage, and Infinity, none mention which direction to hook up the RSL. So there's no written guidance on that.

However in photos, Vector, Javelin, Mirage, and Infinity all show it back to front. (Icon didn't show it, and Wings is unclear in the photo)

[Edit: added Mirage info too]

Interesting.
(Of course I still don't know how the RSL actually did disconnect, whether from facing the wrong way, or whether it just wasn't quite closed.)
Have others out there been told to hook up an RSL in a particular way?

[councilman24 36]

What struck me reading this, coming from a feet county and experience, it seems to me that an altimeter reading in 100's of meters, essentially 300ft resolution. is not precise enough. Especially with digital altimeters where you don't have analog needle between digits. I don't use a digital altimeter but certainly am used to thinking in increments one third the size of 100 meters. And 2000' vs 1800' makes a difference in an exit decision.

Are all decision altitudes and altitude guidance taught and always given in whole 100's of meters (where meters are the unit of common use)? I recognize that 10 meters, around 30' may be to fine but I think I'd want a digital to read 1.15, 1.10, 1.05, 1.00, 0.95.....

Thoughts from the rest of the world besides the U.S.? Do any digitals read as above in meters?

Aside from that something needs to change. You were a 3 second longer search for the RC from dying. Almost another cutaway/no pull fatality. Perhaps a reason to use a french link (as we used to on students) on the rsl and a hook knife for the vary rare need to disconnect in the air. I've always thought this shackle (photo) might be a better choice. Have to push blue button to pull pin and separate sides.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[unkulunkulu 0]

Uploaded video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFsz3W_KkWk

[unkulunkulu 0]

Actually neptune does change its indication to higher precision, i.e. under canopy it shows 445m etc. But probably it changes indication based on vertical speed but not quite sure.

Quote

Aside from that something needs to change. You were a 3 second longer search for the RC from dying. Almost another cutaway/no pull fatality. Perhaps a reason to use a french link

I thought that something needs to change with my EP execution/practice Good advice is welcome in this regard.

Or are you talking specifically about RSL reliability?

[mxk 1]

pchapman

I checked some manuals:
For Vector, Wings, Javelin, Icon, Mirage, and Infinity, none mention which direction to hook up the RSL. So there's no written guidance on that.

However in photos, Vector, Javelin, Mirage, and Infinity all show it back to front. (Icon didn't show it, and Wings is unclear in the photo)

On my Vector3, I originally used the back-to-front attachment because that's how it was shown in the photos. I later changed it for two reasons. First, with that tab facing forward it is easier to disconnect in freefall by grabbing the tab with the left hand and pulling forward rather than sideways or toward your body (and I did practice this procedure in freefall). Second, with the main deployed, the front-to-back orientation seemed more natural for the shackle (no twists in the tape), and again, it would be easier to disconnect if you wanted to get rid of the main without deploying the reserve.

If this incident is actually a case of the RSL being disconnected by the departing main, I think it would be a good argument in favor of the back-to-front attachment. Would be nice to hear from some of the manufacturers about whether their photos represent the recommended practice or if that's just the orientation they chose to make the photographs clearer.

[Di0 1]

chuckakers

***Don't really know what exactly to do with the fogging up visor....

I've always had issues with a fogging visor. I have found that cleaning it really well with rubbing alcohol and a soft cotton cloth works like a dream (fogging is typical much worse if the surface has dirt or oils on it - even a little). I know some manufacturers limit what they consider acceptable cleaning products, but whatever. I use what works.

Keep some cleaning supplies in your gear bag and re-clean at the first sign of fogging.

I keep a bottle of this and use it occasionally (and sparingly) when I start to notice fogging. On my BH Aero it's not an issue, beside my last ~500 jumps were hop and pop with open faces, so I haven't used in a while but when I was doing RW only and I had an older Oxygin, I remember being happy with it.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012Q2S4W/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[parachutist 1]

pchapman

Hooking up RSL back to front:

I got this advice from UPT's rigging dept a few years ago. It was a solution to the RSL tab damaging the right riser's 3-ring loop. All of our Sigmas were showing wear on the right riser loops, while the left ones were in great shape. If you hook the shackle on back to front, I was told, then you won't have that problem. A few years later: we still get a bit more wear on the right risers, but it's not as pronounced as it was before we started hooking up the RSL back-to-front consistently.

[pchapman 261]

mxk

I originally used the back-to-front attachment because that's how it was shown in the photos. I later changed it for two reasons.

Good points you made. Front to back does swing the tab out to make it more accessible rather than having it sometimes pressing inwards against the body.

Thus both RSL orientations have their advantages.

To repeat what we have basically said, we still don't know whether RSL orientation had any effect on this incident, nor what the manufacturers really think about RSL orientation.

[wan2doit 6]

This may seem a bit yuckie but when I was trained in scube and free diving we were told to spit into face mask and smear it all around - would that apply to full face helmets possibly ?

[wan2doit 6]

This may seem a bit yuckie but when I was trained in scuba and free diving we were told to spit into face mask and smear it all around - would that apply to full face helmets possibly ?

[lyosha 46]

Those are some pretty aggressive check altitudes for a jump in below freezing weather and heavy gloves... what are your summer altitudes?

[timrf79 0]

No expert by any means, but my thoughts reading your post:
3rd cut-a-way in 700 jumps, seems a bit too often. You may need to look at your gear, packing or deploying technique
Break-off and pull altitude, I like to break at 5k feet (1500m) and pull around 4k feet (1200m).
When I "pull" at 4k, that means wave, arch, reach, pull, by the time canopy is open, slider stowed, leg straps adjusted, chest strap removed I am sub 3k (900m).
Fogged up visor, this should not happen, big issue...

[danielcroft 2]

Just a suggestion: you may want to reconsider selecting the same riser and toggle color. Even with the luxury of time and not my impending death, it's hard to tell which part of your system is which.

As you mentioned, it does look like you exacerbated the spin by releasing your right side.
I'm back to front on my RSL attachment.
You probably don't want to assume any part of your system will save you under any circumstances. What's the downside if you don't rely on any of it?
It appeared that you leveled out your wing early on in dealing with the malfunction and then reached up to get out of your line twists which seemed to change the level of your risers. I'm sitting at my computer so, I don't mean to second guess your actions, just observations.
Having jumped an Odyssey myself (115 at 1.5:1 and a 100 as well) I've found their openings to be a little inconsistent myself. I enjoyed the wing, though.

[Di0 1]

wan2doit

This may seem a bit yuckie but when I was trained in scuba and free diving we were told to spit into face mask and smear it all around - would that apply to full face helmets possibly ?

I was taught to do the same. However, even if that worked, one thing is to do that when you're about to go underwater, another is to do that in front of everybody on an airplane load. I mean, after all peeing in your jumpsuit probably also helps keeping you warm and cozy but I wouldn't really recommend it as a skydiving technique. LoL

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[yoink 321]

wan2doit

This may seem a bit yuckie but when I was trained in scube and free diving we were told to spit into face mask and smear it all around - would that apply to full face helmets possibly ?

Probably. A more hygienic option is just to make up a dilute dish-soap solution and use that instead.

[keithbar 1]

No tears shampoo pleas

e

i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .

[Hajo 0]

So now for my 20 cents ...

visor:
as you use a G3.. my experience is that it is not unusual for this helmet to fog the visor. I removed all liners in the front/mouth area, still foggy in cold/humid conditions. even anti-fog spray doesn´t make any spectacular changes (maybe I should use the alcohol advice for cleaning, I just used alcohol in a different way ..)
my solution is to open it up during linestretch (Crossfire2) or right after checking the airspace before doing something else...
but I suppose on a ride like this, you think about everything else than just to open the visor ..

canopy:
you fly the Skylark one?
"Odyssey – modern 9-cell fully eliptical high performance canopy.
Recommended only for experienced canopy pilots!"
So much for the thoughts what happens with swing/shifting weight in harness, symmetry, ..
Saw your cutaway with the Sabre2, similar twist but more forgiving ..

RSL:
can´t provide any input here, except that I only know it with the tab towards the jumper, not towards the riser..
again something new to learn and take care of ..

the canopy ride (my pov):
If I would pitch at 1000 meters, the opening wouldn´t be finished at 800 meters. but I fly a Crossie ..
0:25 > symmetrical risers, no tension knots visible
0:30 > twists in right steering line visible
0:31 > on the left side also
why important? twists in steeringlines contribute to tension knots
solution: untwist them
0:31 > you grab both risers on the left side (not only the rears)
0:34 > pull the right rear, not both ..
0:36 > release of right toggle speeds up rotation

you stated to know most of those issues, that´s the good part.

improvement:
review your packing method may help. seeing that linetwists are not uncommon to you, keep in mind that a highperformance elliptical puts you faster into trouble.
untwist your steering lines after every jump if neccessary.
take a canopy course if you didn´t have it already, focus on flying HP canopies (not focus on landings only ..)
practice riserturns on hop-n-pops to get familiar with that on the Odyssey (should come with the canopy course).
try everything to ensure the visor to be not foggy again
talk to an experienced rigger about that RSL issue, might save your life.
pitch higher.
get toggles in contrasting color.

Note:
this is my personal view and not the ultimate wisdom.
maybe I saw something wrong due to the quality of the youtubevid or to the lack of coffee ..
glad you survived and good that you be so open to discuss.
I guess at round 800 jumps, I wouldn´t have done that because I was the best in the world those days ...
and immortal of course ...

--------------------------------------------------

With sufficient thrust,
pigs just fly well

[unkulunkulu 0]

Forgot to thank thank you to all of you who gave advice. Will try to implement it. Surely a chance to revise altitudes and a new canopy control course is in order now that I'm more familiar with this canopy, last one I took was just when I transitioned to it. Riser turns are no problem and of course I use it regularly after opening as well as later, it was just unexpected that it will require that much more input to make a difference in this situation. Some excercices come to mind that may teach me to know the canopy better in this regard.

Untwisting lines, yes, getting that into habit after landing. When I was packing myself more frequently I used to untwist them during packing but now that I'm more often give it to the packer I have to introduce new procedures.

Quote

So much for the thoughts what happens with swing/shifting weight in harness, symmetry, ..
Saw your cutaway with the Sabre2, similar twist but more forgiving ..

especially considering that I didn't manage to untwist that one, which I guess might mean that the harness shift was more serious.

Quote

If I would pitch at 1000 meters, the opening wouldn´t be finished at 800 meters. but I fly a Crossie ..

I used to jump a safire2, that one would not make it in 200m too. But the odyssey looks similar to pd pulse for me: quick but soft. Not really sure when neptunes switch indication from 0.8 to 0.7: I guess 750m would be correct.

Quote

review your packing method may help. seeing that linetwists are not uncommon to you, keep in mind that a highperformance elliptical puts you faster into trouble.

I don't know what frequency of linetwists should be considered too common. I would say that since the first linetwist cutaway around jump 500 I had a total of 3 or 4 occasions of linetwists. This cutaway is first occurrence on this canopy (on-heading openings are only about 50% of the time though tbh).