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humanflite

Is this the worst AFF ever? Whats happened here ?

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k guys, well I was just looking on you tube for some AFF videos as 5 is my next jump and I came across this horror show :o:S

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exmZkwSAJxc

The main trauma starts after about 1 minute and continues to the end!!!

wtf? What is this dude doing wrong apart from non existant arch?


Can someone please explain how this dude has got himself into this position and how to avoid the same thing!!

I was totally calm about 5 until I saw this as 4 went great. I've so far had no stability issues in the air,controlled and stable exits, have a decent arch, and apart from the AFF instructors telling me to straighten out my legs into the airflow and point my toes more in levels 1 and 2 its been going superb...

But like I say, reassurance needed please ;)
This has got me panicked about 'what ifs' that I never considered during my jump planning. Im gonna ask my instructor what the recovery method is but your thoughts would be great.
Im thinking he's gonna say, 'a hard arch'...but still.
Im worried!

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I'm not very experienced, but it looks to me like there were two problems: one, he wasn't arching enough, and two, he wasn't able to stop himself from turning. He probably froze up due to panic (and maybe sensory overload) and couldn't remember what to do. At least he remembered to pull, even with the spin. I wonder how many line twists he had, though.

Anyway, I wouldn't get too hung up on all the "what-ifs". Just practice a whole bunch on the ground and visualize everything on the ground and on the plane. If all else fails, just arch and tap your toes together, and remember to keep looking at your altimeter.

Remember also that your state of mind is going to affect (effect? I can never remember which to use) your jump. If you're worried about everything that could go wrong, you'll be tense and scared and the jump will go poorly. After my first jump from full altitude a couple weeks ago (I was a static-line student), I was talking to my instructor and getting really down on myself for everything that I perceived I had done wrong. The gist of what he told me was that any jump where I landed safely was a good jump, and that if I get down on myself I'm just going to continue doing poorly and I won't enjoy it as much.

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That really bothered me that they put suicide in the title of that video. There was no evidence of the guy getting hurt let alone killing himself. :S:S[:/]



True.

I will say that the AFFI, from my watching the referenced video, had balls of steel. I'm curious about some of his/her judgement calls. He didn't tackle the first really bad spin. Maybe with only one AFFI in the air, it is better to not knock yourself out, but to rely on training of the student (which appears to have kicked in on the out-of-control = pull now). Is that part of the current USPA AFFI training (yes I understand this particular student was not in the US)?

I've never been in an AFFI's shoes, but I think I would have had the Brunswick talk around the fourth or fifth jump. Or at least spent a week or so watching the student do arch and turn drills on the ground.

I love teaching, but don't think I'll ever walk a mile in an AFFI's shoes. I have lots of respect for those who do the job. Thanks guys.

(ps - I did have a dream last week that I was an AFFI and had a super-slow response student)

- David
SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)

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I've de-briefed plenty of AFF students in my time and I see a couple of things here . . .

First off, yes, this would give you pause considering it's your next level. But let's put it into perspective. It used to be almost everyone had an uncontrolled spin problem in my days as a student. But the training is so much better nowadays there's a very good chance you won't.

And if it happens, and you have the same problem as in the vid, the answer is also in the vid. If the skydive gets out of control, just stop the skydive. Live to fly another day.

But there are things you can do before you allow things to progress to that out of control.

In the first videos the student's main problem isn't spins it's staying face to earth. In the later videos he's trying hard not to repeat that problem, and he is successful, but then he runs into the spin problem.

And the problem in this case is he simply isn't trying hard enough to correct his heading. He's locked into what he thinks is the correct position for belly to earth freefall and he can't figure out why it isn't working.

It isn't working (and here's the big secret) because flying means continually adjusting.

Let's say you take a fully articulated life size model of a skydiver and place its arms and legs into the position you practiced on the ground and gave it a nice overall arch. If you throw that model out of plane what do you think will happen? That's right. It will stay belly to earth but it will spin like a top. It will spin because the model has no brain and it can't adjust, and if it can't adjust, it can't fly, and if it can't fly, it can't hold a heading.

So in a nutshell no locking in, you've got to fly your body, you've got to stay fluid.

He also had his head down. Your body will follow your head so look in the direction you want to go. If you are spinning right you better be looking left and high on the horizon.

And although you termed this a horror show, and I can fully understand why, I saw some good stuff too. While this student did let his flying get away from him he kept control over the most important part of the skydive. He kept his altitude awareness and in the latter jumps at least, he got a parachute out unassisted and while belly to earth. Any other problem he has is minor and can be fixed. (When, and if, you become an Instructor you'll see what a real horror show is like, and this wasn't it).

Believe me, in a year this student will be a shit hot free flyer, in two years he'll be a shit hot canopy swooper, and in three years he'll be so obnoxious his Instructor will turn the other way when he sees him coming. And of course he won't remember he ever had a spin problem.

And kudos to that Instructor too. We never get enough credit for it, but one of the hardest in-air things we do is when we release a student we know has a spin issue. It's like intentionally dropping a hammer on your foot, and every time it's like, "Okay, here we go!"

So remember. The only way not to turn is to counter turn. And at first you'll have to exaggerate the moves, but as you gain experience it will become so subtle it will be almost unnoticeable, and then you'll be flying with your brain and not so much your body.

So good luck on this upcoming level five. Take a picture of the horizon and fight to keep that picture. And above all else keep an eye on the clock.

And let us know how you make out!

NickD :)

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I had problems with my release dive (AFF4), but my AFFI tackled me before I could get 1 single rotation... something as simple as looking at my alti sent me into the a wild spin.

AFF 5 + 6 (release, 360 turns left and right with docking) went by like a breeze, everything finally clicked.

It's all about having a nice arch, but at the same time relaxing 110%... I feel loose and like jelly now and have zero stability problems... it feels literally impossible to spin now, I can send myself into a extremely fast turn, but I can pull myself out of it within 0.5 second.

I dunno, AFF4 was hell, but the moment I relaxed and really FELT the air skydiving just made sense.

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> Is this the worst AFF ever?

Nope. I've seen much worse.

>Can someone please explain how this dude has got himself
>into this position and how to avoid the same thing!!

There are dozens of ways to screw up an AFF. In fact, the number of ways to screw it up vastly outnumbers the number of ways to do it well. Best, then, to concentrate on how to do them well; you could spend years studying how people do AFF's wrong, and it won't help you do them right.

>I was totally calm about 5 until I saw this as 4 went great.

Then don't change anything.

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Well said Nick!

For the OP I'll add this. The student is looking down most of the time. You can't stop a turn you that you can't see starting and if you're not looking out towards the horizon, you're not going to see the turn begin.

Take your time and enjoy the skydives. :)
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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Watch this one and you'll feel happy again. I laughed my ass off at the barrel roll 2.09 minutes in the vid. Music's great too ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVq8IUqQl7g&feature=related



lol :D
Good one. cheers

Thanks for the advice guys.
NickDG, some fantastic info there. Cheers
Not worried about this scenario at all now. Thanks again ;)

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I've de-briefed plenty of AFF students in my time and I see a couple of things here . . .

First off, yes, this would give you pause considering it's your next level. But let's put it into perspective. It used to be almost everyone had an uncontrolled spin problem in my days as a student. But the training is so much better nowadays there's a very good chance you won't.

And if it happens, and you have the same problem as in the vid, the answer is also in the vid. If the skydive gets out of control, just stop the skydive. Live to fly another day.

But there are things you can do before you allow things to progress to that out of control.

In the first videos the student's main problem isn't spins it's staying face to earth. In the later videos he's trying hard not to repeat that problem, and he is successful, but then he runs into the spin problem.

And the problem in this case is he simply isn't trying hard enough to correct his heading. He's locked into what he thinks is the correct position for belly to earth freefall and he can't figure out why it isn't working.

It isn't working (and here's the big secret) because flying means continually adjusting.

Let's say you take a fully articulated life size model of a skydiver and place its arms and legs into the position you practiced on the ground and gave it a nice overall arch. If you throw that model out of plane what do you think will happen? That's right. It will stay belly to earth but it will spin like a top. It will spin because the model has no brain and it can't adjust, and if it can't adjust, it can't fly, and if it can't fly, it can't hold a heading.

So in a nutshell no locking in, you've got to fly your body, you've got to stay fluid.

He also had his head down. Your body will follow your head so look in the direction you want to go. If you are spinning right you better be looking left and high on the horizon.

And although you termed this a horror show, and I can fully understand why, I saw some good stuff too. While this student did let his flying get away from him he kept control over the most important part of the skydive. He kept his altitude awareness and in the latter jumps at least, he got a parachute out unassisted and while belly to earth. Any other problem he has is minor and can be fixed. (When, and if, you become an Instructor you'll see what a real horror show is like, and this wasn't it).

Believe me, in a year this student will be a shit hot free flyer, in two years he'll be a shit hot canopy swooper, and in three years he'll be so obnoxious his Instructor will turn the other way when he sees him coming. And of course he won't remember he ever had a spin problem.

And kudos to that Instructor too. We never get enough credit for it, but one of the hardest in-air things we do is when we release a student we know has a spin issue. It's like intentionally dropping a hammer on your foot, and every time it's like, "Okay, here we go!"

So remember. The only way not to turn is to counter turn. And at first you'll have to exaggerate the moves, but as you gain experience it will become so subtle it will be almost unnoticeable, and then you'll be flying with your brain and not so much your body.

So good luck on this upcoming level five. Take a picture of the horizon and fight to keep that picture. And above all else keep an eye on the clock.

And let us know how you make out!

NickD :)



Again. thanks for this golden reply NicDG ;)

I will remember this info and hopefully will fly through my level 5 on the weekend :)Will let you know how I get on and will no doubt have more questions as I progress!

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without a long answer (since I agree with the details already provided) arch, relax and get your head up

relax is the hard one - let the tension out of your chest, let the wind push your arms backward, don't push down on the air, let the wind flow around you

when your head is up your arms are back farther;)
Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

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Yes, Lutz was a putz, but more so for how he behaved after the jump. I was behind Lutz with another AFF student on that Perris Otter jump and I've written about it elsewhere here. He was a victim of a gear problem none of us foresaw. And although he was taught what to do in that situation, it's why they are called students, after all . . .

But, someone upboard said something, about the in-thread video that needs addressing.

It was they thought the AFF jumpmaster should have tackled the student to stop the spin.

There's a fine line here and some things to take into consideration. The first thing is sure, you can stop your student from ever winding up in a mega spin but you are teaching him how not to spin. And you almost can't do that if you don't let it happen.

If it gets to the point where the student is so out of control he should have stopped the skydive and hasn't, then if still high enough you do have to intervene. And this is where good ground training comes in. It's much better to drill into them on the ground what to do when everything goes south, than to have to fix them in the air. But if not and you have to stop them from spinning you can't approach on the same level. That's a buzz-saw.

And even with a full face helmet you're just asking to get knocked out. We realized this many years ago when none of us wore helmets. So the best way was get over their backs, into their burbles, and drop down on them.

But hey, guess what? That doesn't always work either. I did that successfully many times until moving over a mega-spinning level five at about 7000-feet and just as I started down she reached in and pulled her reserve handle. The reserve pilot chute popped out, inflated, and then took off like a bullet. It hit me square in the head and knocked me stone cold out. I woke up in a plowed field, spitting out dirt and broken teeth, with my Stiletto out and no memory of deploying it. I had no AAD in those days and can only think I must have done one of those dream sequence pulls.

AFF is a tough business. I think it takes about five minutes to look good doing it, but at least twenty years to get so you can really handle anything on the ground and in the air.

So go easy critiquing Instructors on YouTube. But on the other hand I think sadly, at least a third, maybe more, of the current Instructor corps should never be allowed to even talk to a student. And instead of addressing that problem USPA went and made the AFF rating even easier to obtain. The ones who really know how to do it should be teaching the majority of students and for more money. As it is now once they really get good enough they have to quit teaching skydiving and go out and get real jobs . . .

NickD :)

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That would be affect, like when something has an influence on you or create a change. Effect is like a result of somthing. . . like cause and effect. I know; I am a dork.

WOW, I am so not happy that I watched that video! >:(
Carpe Diem!

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.....first thing is sure, you can stop your student from ever winding up in a mega spin but you are teaching him how not to spin. And you almost can't do that if you don't let it happen.
.....



Let it happen - how many times usually? Perhaps after 2nd trial, the student should have been reset to AFF 3 with 2 AFFI's to train a bit more on arch, legs .... ?

Watching those spins and reelings several times is a bit appalling :S

dudeist skydiver # 3105

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