should it be required to jump without an AAD?

[mjosparky 3]

I think you are missing the point. An AAD and a reserve are the same thing. You can jump without and AAD legally but not without a reserve. An AAD adds another layer of safety but also another layer of complexity to the equation. An AAD causes some jumpers to believe that when they cutaway they can stop thinking. The reserve is just that, a second parachute. But just like the main if the jumper does not think and pull it at an approbate time it is useless. Skydiving is a thinking persons sport, you quit think at freefall speed and you will die.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[airtwardo 6]

Skydiving is a thinking persons sport...


***



I'm FUCKED! ~

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[StreetScooby 5]

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I don't know why you all continuously misread pro-AAD arguments to say that.

No one is saying that. What people are telling you is don't rely on your AAD. Rely on yourself. Don't do more in the sport than you're ready to do (e.g., head down at 50 jumps). Ask yourself this question: when would you even need an AAD?

We are all engines of karma

[strop45 0]

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An AAD causes some jumpers to believe that when they cutaway they can stop thinking

If this is so, then I agree its a bad thing, but I'm not so sure that that this is the case. I still practice my EPs the way they were taught to me,and in the event of things going wrong, my number one plan is to follow my EPs, not try and second guess the AAD. I turn it on at the beginning of the day and then forget it. No thats not 100% true, because I have an AAD in my rig, I always try and pull by 2500 at the latest. If I didn't have an AAD, maybe I might try and push this a bit???

So even if the actual AAD doesn't have any significant effect on my chances of injury or death, having it does make me pull higher. There is no doubt that the use of reliable AADs has reduced the number of injuries and deaths from low/no pulls.

Incidentally I have no choice but to jump with an AAD, here just like a reserve, its a legal requirement for all jumpers....

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[redlegphi 0]

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An AAD causes some jumpers to believe that when they cutaway they can stop thinking.

While I'm sure that there are skydivers out there that believe this, I tend to think they're rare since, as you say, this is a thinking man's sport. I tend to believe that most people who have the basic intelligence required to jump out of a plane and survive are smart enough to realize that the AAD is not a primary safety device and is there as a backstop.
I, personally, don't want to jump without that backstop. And not because I'm going out and doing 10-way headdown jumps that I'm completely unqualified for. Rather, I accept that shit happens, even on the most basic jumps, and that having an AAD can increase my odds of surviving some forms of that shit should they occur.
Had I started jumping prior to the development of reliable AADs, would I have jumped without them? Probably, just like I would have driven without a seat belt prior to their invention. But we have AADs and we have seat belts and I'm going to keep using both.

[skydiverton2 0]

Airbags in cars should be forbidden also,
Remove the ABS system from your car.
Away with the seat belts.
Throw away your motorcycle helmet.

Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habid.
.
.
Also in case you jump a sport rig!!!

[billvon 2,396]

>If this is so, then I agree its a bad thing, but I'm not so sure that that this is the case.

It has certainly been the case in at least one instance I can think of, so it does happen. Does it happen often? I don't think so - but it is something that must be guarded against.

[Buried 0]

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or lack of altitude aware ness

just an fyi, this part doesn't hold true with wingsuits. if you are unaware of your altitude and fly past the firing range, it will NOT go off. it's pretty easy to stay below the firing speed

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[billvon 2,396]

> Airbags in cars should be forbidden also,
>Remove the ABS system from your car.
>Away with the seat belts.
>Throw away your motorcycle helmet.

If you wouldn't even drive your car across a parking lot without a seatbelt on - it's likely you are overestimating their power to protect you.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I don't know why you all continuously misread pro-AAD arguments to say that.

No one is saying that. What people are telling you is don't rely on your AAD. Rely on yourself. Don't do more in the sport than you're ready to do (e.g., head down at 50 jumps). Ask yourself this question: when would you even need an AAD?

The problem with this never ending discussion is the clashing of agendas. People like you and Bill are concerned with the tendency of people to want to do more advanced jumps before they're ready, and some might sieze on better technology as an excuse to skip putting in the groundwork. Other lines are: my training was better, and I'm a natural.

Doesn't support the statement made - that if you won't do a jump without an AAD - you shouldn't do it. It's perfectly valid to decide you won't engage in this risky recreational activity without that backup, just as you won't do it without the reserve. Yes, people did millions of jumps before the AAD. Yes, I've done some without. Doesn't take away from the number of people that died. Or even this year.

Against that we have the gal at Perris who improperly activated it at sea level and then died through apparent inaction. I don't see this as a AAD fault. Maybe gear overeliance, and definitely operator error.

[redlegphi 0]

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> Airbags in cars should be forbidden also,
>Remove the ABS system from your car.
>Away with the seat belts.
>Throw away your motorcycle helmet.

If you wouldn't even drive your car across a parking lot without a seatbelt on - it's likely you are overestimating their power to protect you.

I disagree. It's more likely that you're preparing for a worst case scenario that, while unlikely to happen, still could happen.

[klingeme 0]

I've done over a 1,300 jumps without needing my reserve, but the 3 times I needed it, I was glad it was there.

[mjosparky 3]

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Other lines are: my training was better, and I am a natural.

This attitude has been the biggest killer of jumper over the last 10 or so years. With or without an AAD. Jmo.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Pulse 0]

It's a choice....plain and simple. And if everyone can respect one another's choices we'll be golden!

I think forcing someone to make X-number of jumps without an AAD would be a little weird and fairly worthless. What would it teach? If nothing notable occured wouldn't it be a little like the few jumps I've made with one since I've had my license? It didn't teach me anything.

I look at it this way. I first learned about AAD's during my first jump course. Before that I didn't know they existed. I was obviously willing to accept the risk before I started jumping and that hasn't changed.

A few have eluded to the idea that if you're not jumping an AAD, then you're not doing EVERYTHING to stay safe. Keep in mind, this is also true if you're not jumping a 300 sq. foot parachute. And why stop there? GO BIG.....STAY SAFE!

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[DeVoll 0]

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> Airbags in cars should be forbidden also,
>Remove the ABS system from your car.
>Away with the seat belts.
>Throw away your motorcycle helmet.

If you wouldn't even drive your car across a parking lot without a seatbelt on - it's likely you are overestimating their power to protect you.

I wont do that but it is not becuase i am overestimating THEIR POWER TO PROTECT ME!!!!!!! That is stupid to say! i just know that i am safer by just making that part of my rutien. An air bag and pre tenshioner will not work at low speeds but who is to say i wont end up driving across town instead of just across the parking lot??? Same as a hop n pop, are you willing not to tighten you chest strap all the way??? Your not going to terminal right????

[feuergnom 22]

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The replies are exactly what I expected by my question.

I now ask, why is it that there is not also a strong outcry against those who put way too much confidence in their AAD, making statements such as "cut away and just wait for your AAD to fire"


shoot, I had more to say, after getting responses, but now that I have been up for 38 hours for work, my brain is fried and I can't remember.

because just like your initial hypothetical situation, for a person to really just "cut away and just wait for your AAD to fire" would be an absolutely moronic thing to do. I s'pose for most of us such a suggestion is so absolutely not realistic, that nobody takes it seriously.

just some weeks ago our rigging loft got a reserve repack from a jumper doing exactly this kind of thing. what an assclown

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[billvon 2,396]

>I wont do that but it is not becuase i am overestimating THEIR POWER
>TO PROTECT ME!

If you will not even consider driving across a parking lot without your seatbelt, you may (IMO) be relying on the seatbelt to do more than it can do.

>An air bag and pre tenshioner will not work at low speeds but who is to
>say i wont end up driving across town instead of just across the parking
>lot?

Uh - I surely hope that YOU can say that you know where you are going!

>Same as a hop n pop, are you willing not to tighten you chest strap all the way?

Sure. I often do not tighten my chest strap all the way for both hop and pops and high altitude jumps.

[chrismgtis 0]

Sometimes I wish I had an AAD that popped higher. 750 feet scares the living shit out of me. Though right now I don't have one at all. I just pray that I don't have a heart attack in the air or something.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[xenaswampjumper 0]

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I made over 500 jumps without any AAD, back in the seventies. We didn't consider them to be safe or reliable in those days. Those were also the days when "no pull / low pull" was the leading cause of death in the sport.

I'm even more surprised at your question after what happened last weekend at your home dropzone, where a highly experienced and respected skydiver died after being unable to pull his reserve handle after a cutaway. The reason may never be known, as only he really knew what went wrong. He had made an informed decision to jump without his AAD while it was away for its 8 year service. I'm sure he considered and weighed the risks and made a not unreasonable decision to jump without it for the month it usually takes to get the job done. Lots of people make the same decision with no adverse consequences.

Tragically, he guessed wrong.

I'm saying this as respectfully as possible, because I know how much pain this has caused everyone, as the memorial service was only held yesterday.

But thankfully, accidents like Shindig's are now a rare occurence thanks to AADs. In the old days we knew far too many good skydivers - and wonderful people - who died this way. I can think of several I knew myself, right here in So Cal (Tom DeMotts, Glory Severt, and jeanni McCombs, to name three right off the top of my head). And I'm VERY please that this type of fatality has ALMOST entirely disappeared. At least now we can focus on how not to do ourselves in under an open canopy.

As we go sailing out the door at altitude, none of us ever knows, "This is the jump where I will need my AAD". Most of us will hopefully never face that jump at all. The rest of us can either thank God we were wearing one that day, or leave our friends and family in a lot of pain and with questions that may never be answered.

WELL SAID!!!!!! I had this "argument" with someone at my DZ that sold their cypress to pay rent. They looked me straight in the face and said "if you feel you need a cypress then you shouldn't be skydiving". I looked them straight in the face and said "I'll remember to put that on your epitaph at your funeral"

They are a personal choice, but one that if needed was most assuredly needed!!! We are but human and prone to mistakes, let alone the fact that we can't control others who are in the air with us................

till later have fun & love each other seeya mb65johnny gates....
In skydiving, the only thing that stops you is the ground..............
PMS# 472 Muff #3863 TPM#95