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shermanator

should it be required to jump without an AAD?

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The replies are exactly what I expected by my question.

I now ask, why is it that there is not also a strong outcry against those who put way too much confidence in their AAD, making statements such as "cut away and just wait for your AAD to fire"


shoot, I had more to say, after getting responses, but now that I have been up for 38 hours for work, my brain is fried and I can't remember.



because just like your initial hypothetical situation, for a person to really just "cut away and just wait for your AAD to fire" would be an absolutely moronic thing to do. I s'pose for most of us such a suggestion is so absolutely not realistic, that nobody takes it seriously.

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If the jump is too dangerous to do WITHOUT an AAD, why is it suddenly acceptable because you HAVE an AAD? That's an equally foolish outlook, in my opinion (instructors/coaches are a different matter).



If you go to the World Team website, you will find that AADs are mandatory for participation in their world record jumps. I think trying to build a 400 to 500 Way formation in freefall MIGHT be too dangerous without an AAD. Apparently the World Team's organizers think so.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

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"cut away and just wait for your AAD to fire"



I have never heard a single soul say that and have never seen anyone write that. Why is it you hear this all the time?



In the incidents forum a newbie suggested this as a possible cause of the recent fatality in Perris. He was quickly educated by some of the more experienced jumpers in the forum. Aside from that I've never heard of this.
I got nuthin

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I now ask, why is it that there is not also a strong outcry against those who put way too much confidence in their AAD



Unless I've been reading this forum in an alternate universe, there as always been one hell of an outcry here against putting too much confidence in an AAD.

You might find a couple of posts from people who do put too much faith in them, but there are a dozen to one posts pointing out what a bad idea that is.

Posts some examples that haven't been shot down, please?
Owned by Remi #?

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Maybe we should have 2 AADs... one for our Reserve and the other for our Main... then we'd have no need to bother trying to deploy anything[:/]

Where i did my AFF that's exactly what they had, my FJC was a present from my wife, she specifically chose that DZ BECAUSE of the 2 AADs on student gear.
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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I now ask, why is it that there is not also a strong outcry against those who put way too much confidence in their AAD, making statements such as "cut away and just wait for your AAD to fire"



Because they usually don't die if they do that.
Appart from that i have never hear that statement. I also recall one DZ grounding jumpers for a month if they had an AAD fire, was ist Eloy?

Franco
If it does not cost anything you are the product.

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I also recall one DZ grounding jumpers for a month if they had an AAD fire, was ist Eloy?



I don’t know about Eloy but that is the law at Perris. If your AAD fires and you are not disabled in some way you fucked up.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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I reackon YES. And we also jump with only one parachute so that we can also boost the confidence of the packer while we are at it.

I've been doing that for a couple of years now. I have lots of confidence in the packer.
"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"

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I think the number has gone down with the introduction of Zero P and the corresponding increase in deployment altitude. We're talking almost 1500 ft difference from the 80's. 7+ seconds.
Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

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I reackon YES. And we also jump with only one parachute so that we can also boost the confidence of the packer while we are at it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And we should also make X jumps with no audible.
And we should also make X jumps with no altimeter.
And we should also make X jumps on an unmodified round.
And we should also make X jumps on a square with the steering lines removed.



Preferably all on the same jump!:D

Well ok, the last two might be tough...
"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

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I think the number has gone down with the introduction of Zero P and the corresponding increase in deployment altitude. We're talking almost 1500 ft difference from the 80's. 7+ seconds.



In fairness, the reduction in no/low pull fatalities compared to 25-30 yrs ago is probably due to at least 3 things: Common use of reliable AAD's; Increase in typical pull altitudes; and Common use of audible altimeters

...and the similar reduction in cutaway-no/low pull fatalities is probably due to RSL's and AAD's, probably in that order.

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I also recall one DZ grounding jumpers for a month if they had an AAD fire, was ist Eloy?



I don’t know about Eloy but that is the law at Perris. If your AAD fires and you are not disabled in some way you fucked up.

Sparky




Some of us are disabled most the time anyway...:ph34r:


That's why I don't use an aad...just what I need, someone ELSE tellin' me I fucked up! :)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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I now ask, why is it that there is not also a strong outcry against those who put way too much confidence in their AAD



I hardly see anyone putting too much confidence in their AAD. I do see people putting confidence in the fact that shit happens outside their control which is a reason people jumps with AADs.

Here is 47 pages of shit going wrong.

http://www.cypres-usa.com/CYPRES_Saves_List_20071018.pdf

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If there is a jump you would absolutely not do without your favorite safety device, then you should not do the jump WITH the safety device, either.



Disagree. My favorite safety device is my rig. Would I jump without it, no way....

Many of us jump for fun. Having fun means different things for different people, but for me it means knowing my gear, knowing my limits, and using the appropriate equipment. Frankly with no safety glasses and no altimeters I would probably not enjoy the jump so why do it.

Would I jump without my AAD, maybe, depends on the situation.

Everyone has their own limits and can decide what equipment they are comfortable with and what equipment is optional.
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

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>Frankly with no safety glasses and no altimeters I would probably
>not enjoy the jump so why do it.

Completely up to you. In my opinion, though, if you would never, ever jump without an altimeter (including a hop and pop) you may be overly dependent on that altimeter, and may want to re-evaluate how you judge altitude. Also, if there are jumps that you absolutely would not do without an altimeter, it might be a good idea (again, IMO) to not make that jump at all.

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In my opinion, though, if you would never, ever jump without an altimeter (including a hop and pop) you may be overly dependent on that altimeter, and may want to re-evaluate how you judge altitude. Also, if there are jumps that you absolutely would not do without an altimeter, it might be a good idea (again, IMO) to not make that jump at all.


Agreed and too late. Recently got on the plane with a jumper with about 60 jumps who is known for going low. He had forgotten his altimeter, so I gave him mine. So while I wouldn't board the plane without an altimeter, I don't have any problem jumping without one. IMO preferring to use safety devices whenever possible and being dependent on them are different.

Blue ones
Wayne
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

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...By not jumping one, my confidence in my gear, and myself, has risen.



Your logic is faulty. You, like most jumpers, have never NEEDED an AAD. Therefore, all the jumps that you have made without one do not show that one could do you good in the right circumstance. If you had a track record showing:

- Multiple hits in the head without losing consciousness
- Several instances of losing function of both arms or hands and still being able to deploy a canopy
- Having dozens of crises occur at low altitude without losing altitude awareness

Then, I would say that you had a case to say that you had built confidence in not needing an AAD. What you are saying is similar to saying that, "I have so much confidence in my packing, I don't need a reserve". Sure, if you have 1000 jumps without a malfunction, then you actually didn't need a reserve for those particular jumps. Will that hold true for jump # 1001? Who knows. But, it's the sort of thing that if you need it and don't have it, you'll never need it again. (Reserve or AAD)

High performance aircraft use ejection seats to provide a last resort for un-fixable problems. Things can happen in these airplanes that progress so quickly that there is no time to work out the details - for even the best of aviators. The seat is not a requirement for the aircraft to work, however, it is existing technology that any reasonable person can see the benefit of. It can be added to the aircraft without much change to the performance or cost, and even steely-eyed test pilots like to be able to go home at the end of the day.

Kevin K.
_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

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>High performance aircraft use ejection seats to provide a last resort for
>un-fixable problems. Things can happen in these airplanes that progress
>so quickly that there is no time to work out the details - for even the best
>of aviators. The seat is not a requirement for the aircraft to work, however,
>it is existing technology that any reasonable person can see the benefit
>of. It can be added to the aircraft without much change to the performance
>or cost, and even steely-eyed test pilots like to be able to go home at the
>end of the day.

An excellent example. If you are a GA pilot, and you decide that there is a flight that you will not make unless the aircraft has an ejection system/BRS - you'd be well advised to not make that flight.

Once you ensure that the flight is safe enough to make without an ejection system, AND you use an aircraft with an ejection system or BRS - then you are even safer.

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Jumping with an AAD beyond student status is and always will be a choice as it should.



I think that you're wrong here... please take a look at the Dropzone pages of this site to find where AADs are REQUIRED.

  • Take a look at the Sapnish DZs for example
  • and even some over in the States (Orange VA, Suffolk VA for example)

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    AADs are mandatory at Skydive Orange. In fact they are required at all leading Virginia and Washington DC / Maryland area skydiving places!



  • You also have the choice to *NOT* jump at those DZ's
    Mike
    I love you, Shannon and Jim.
    POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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