What if it happened>?

[pack40 0]

You might not think so but YES.


Hungarian extract:

39. sz. LÉGÜGYI ELÕÍRÁS

3. EJTÕERNYÕS UGRÁS ÉS KÖRÜLMÉNYEI

3.3.6. Biztosítókészülék nélküli ugrást engedélyezhet az üzembentartó szakágvezetõje

segédoktató megbízással rendelkezõknek azonnali nyitással,

ejtõernyõs oktatónak (beugróknak) 4000 m magasságig,

ha nem áll fenn az ejtõernyõ nyitása elõtt az összeütközés lehetõsége az ugrásfeladat alapján.

3.3.7. Biztosítókészülék nélküli ugrás végrehajtásához hozzájárulhat az üzembentartó szakágvezetõje:

azon nem polgári személyek ugrásánál, akik erre vonatkozó külön írásbeli engedéllyel rendelkeznek, vagy ilyen engedély meglétérõl írásban nyilatkoznak,

azon külföldi állampolgárok ugrásánál, akik erre vonatkozó engedéllyel, jogosítással rendelkeznek, illetve ennek meglétérõl írásban nyilatkoznak.

Vhu. 56/A. Biztosítókészülék nélküli ejtõernyõs ugráshoz hozzájárulhat az Üzembentartó szakágvezetõje formaugrásnál (amikor ugrásfeladat alapján fennáll a nyitás elõtti összeütközés veszélye) az ugró írásbeli kérelmére és igazolására, hogy biztosítása kiterjed a magas kockázatú ugrásra is.

OVER

[kelel01 1]

I'm sorry, but how often do people go in at terminal? I've heard like two stories about that, and it sounds like every one of you has seen one at some point in time or another. Did these rigs have Cypreses? I'm getting freaked out here . . .

Kelly

[rjf98 0]

At the risk of sounding harsh. Going in is a reality in our sport. If the thought of it doesn't make you a little nervous.... QUIT NOW!

Don't ever think that it's not a possibility or that it can't happen to you. Yes most fatalities happen under fully inflated canopies, yes, most terminal impacts could have been prevented with a cypress (shit Ron will probably read this and I'll have to listen to him rant about that) but a cypress is a back up... it's electronic and shouldn't be relied on.

[Rich crawls off of his soapbox]
Welcome to skydiving and the community of fellow jumpers that supports your decision to test fate every time you jump. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do.

• Quote

[FrogNog 1]

I try not to take the doom and gloom in big chunks. I like to think that once I get to altitude and the door is open, half the risk is gone.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[phoenixlpr 0]

And so what? Do you think I dont read Hungairan??? Im Hungarian!!! That part you have quoted is not relevant in case of using rig that happaned to be in a "crash". You extract in just about regulation who can jump without AAD.

[BlindBrick 0]

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I don't think I would jump a rig that someone has bounced in. Just does not seem right.

;(

OTOH, arguably the previous jumper just soaked up all the bad karma in the rig. Might turn out to be the safest rig your ever jumped. If nothing else, wearing it should remind you of what can happen and why you should always be on your toes.

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[dkf1979 0]

I'm with schattenjaeger . This whole thread is just not right. I believe the rig needs to be buried just like the passenger was.

http://bodypilot.bounceme.net

[pack40 0]

Sorry, I thought I am posting to another topic,
So here is the relevant part.
For the non-Hungaraian speakers it says that the
"eligibility to jump" of a parachute system exipres if a catastrophe happend with it.

39. sz. LÉGÜGYI EL?ÍRÁS
és végrehajtási utasítása
az ejt?erny?s tevékenységr?l és az ejt?erny?k alkalmazásáról
1. AZ EJT?ERNY?
1.4. Ejt?erny? alkalmassága, nyilvántartása
4. Egyedi alkalmasság megsz?nik:
d) az ejt?erny?vel katasztrófa kategóriájú esemény történt;

OVER

[phoenixlpr 0]

True. You are right.
Its a bit weird.

[livenletfly 0]

nothing's been said that you shouldnt already know being a licensed s/d.
we were all freaked out (me especialy) as low timers. it will go away as you progress and staying current is the best thing you can do. however, always know the risk your taking jumping from aircraft. theres 1000 ways to be kiled or kill yourself and others. from walking across the runway loading till your in the packing tent, your at risk. the key is not to dwell on it! too many jumper jump with ignorance instead of courage and knowlege.
blue ones
keep jumping
as far as jumping dead guy gear. im all for it. i hope somone will keep my gear current if i died. however if i didnt know the person it would probably bother me. knowing them would be different for some reason. i dont know why.

>

[wingnut 0]

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At the risk of sounding harsh. Going in is a reality in our sport. If the thought of it doesn't make you a little nervous.... QUIT NOW

thank you... this goes along with the "discusion" billvon had about dz waivers..... some people in this sport don't relise that they canactually die of no fault of thier own and that nothing is "safe"..........


i hear tandems say that skydiving tandem is "safe".... i containmyself from going over there and asking them " you relise you could die on your jump right?"....


sorry didn'tmean to get off topic........

______________________________________
"i have no reader's digest version"

[ally 0]

very true.

[upndownshop 0]

PD, Sun Path, and alot of Dz's have Demo gear. I know that PD and Sun Path have you sign a one page waiver, but does that really hold? If we are on the road traveling state to state handing out equipment how does that affect the waivers?
I am sure that someone has been hurt under a demo item before.
I am sure that PD for example had their waiver drawn up by an attorney.
I would imagine that the gear store demo's or rental fall under the DZ's waiver.
Good question. Glad you brought it up.

I don't think there is any problem jumping a "dead mans" gear done it plenty of times.

I don't think I would if it was a suicide though, otherwise I say keep em flying.

[dorbie 0]

Quote

thank you... this goes along with the "discusion" billvon had about dz waivers..... some people in this sport don't relise that they canactually die of no fault of thier own and that nothing is "safe"..........

i hear tandems say that skydiving tandem is "safe".... i containmyself from going over there and asking them " you relise you could die on your jump right?"....

Well by the same token driving to the DZ isn't safe. In fact I saw a study that suggested it was about the equivalent risk on average (compared to tandems, fun jumpers take about double the risk on a jump in the study I saw). Most people would consider going on a car journey safe. By safe they don't mean zero chance of death or injury. Going on a ride in Disney Land is also considered safe:

http://www.mouseplanet.com/btmrr_accident/030905btmrr.htm

When people complain that tandem passengers treating a skydive like a fairground ride I immediately think about incidents like the one above.

Getting annoyed at people's use of the word safe w.r.t. skydiving is a bit unfair when you measure risk objectively.

[nael 0]

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Well by the same token driving to the DZ isn't safe.

This has been said many times before but the fact of the matter is, we are jumping out of planes with nothing but some material to stop us flattening ourselves on this beautiful planet, it's as safe as it can be made, but I would definately not consider skydiving a safe sport.

Any one of us could be in the incidents forum next week even if we do everything right. Does that sound like a safe sport?

Edited to add I dont think tandem passengers realise they are greatly increasing their risk of death by doing it. Of course its fun for them, I don't think they know just how much can go wrong, and how quickly it can go wrong.

www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store

[dorbie 0]

Quote

Quote

Well by the same token driving to the DZ isn't safe.

This has been said many times before but the fact of the matter is, we are jumping out of planes with nothing but some material to stop us flattening ourselves on this beautiful planet, it's as safe as it can be made, but I would definately not consider skydiving a safe sport.

Any one of us could be in the incidents forum next week even if we do everything right. Does that sound like a safe sport?

Edited to add I dont think tandem passengers realise they are greatly increasing their risk of death by doing it. Of course its fun for them, I don't think they know just how much can go wrong, and how quickly it can go wrong.

It's been said before for good reason. I understand your sentiment, however any one of us could die in a car accident next week. This is not some subtle point, RISK is at the heart of my definition of safety. It doesn't matter how you describe it, "Leaping out of a plane with a chaotic deployment of fabric & line separating you from certain death with a thousand things that could go wrong.". The numbers of tandem fatalities compared to tandem jumps compare reasonably with DoT statistics on highway fatalities by passenger journey for example (in one report I read).

Contrary to your statement tandem passengers are not at a greatly increased risk of death IMHO, they could die yes, they take a chance of death or serious injury when they jump for sure, but I suspect most people perceive skydiving as far more dangerous than it is when compared to other things they do, for example driving many miles in a car every day.

What does the probability of dying per jump have to be before you would consider skydiving a safe sport?

Hint: zero is not an acceptable answer.

[skiskyrock 0]

You could be sued, sure. Juries can do any damn thing, sure. But look at it this way... assuming you are loaning your rig to a liscenced skydiver you'd have these points in your favor:

1) The plaintiff has a license that certifies that they have demonstrated the ability to perform a skydive safely, including gear checks.

2) They are jumping a rig that you yourself would be willing to use, and would have in the normal course of events. (Might be a good idea to have them pack the main or have a packer do it, however)

3) They are engaged in a sport that is considered crazy anyway by the majority of jurors.

4) No corporate deep pockets are involved.

I can't imagine a rational jury overlooking all of that, if it was presented by a competent lawyer.
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[wingnut 0]

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I am sure that someone has been hurt under a demo item before

had a friend die under a demo canopy...... so yes it has and does happen... andno the canopy wasn't the cause of his death,it was the freefall colision he had before he managed to deploy.......

______________________________________
"i have no reader's digest version"

[JonBonGraham 0]

Quote

If your rig wasn't maintained (at the very least legal) and that contributed you might face criminal charges as well as a civil suit.

I wouldn't be at ALL surprised (in the UK at least) if someone who lent a jumper a rig that, for example, had an out of date reserve/CYPRES or some other defect that was absolutely nothing to do with the reason for the fatality (ie. the guy did a low turn on a rig that had an out of date reserve), then that someone would get sued for lending out a not properly maintained rig that someone went in wearing.

Durham University Freefall Club

Grounds For Divorce website (band I'm in)