Opinions of new jumpers (was - Clewiston fatality)

[RandomLemming 0]

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This is the sort of comment that shows me how much skydiving has changed in 20 years.

Why wait for the S&TA? Why is the responsibility for safety assigned to one person? When you're standing at the loading area, speak up! You're the one in danger - take control of your situation.

I'm not sure what things are like in the US, but one of the reasons I'm currently on a hiatus from skydiving is related to this.

I've found things like speaking up to try and organise an exit order, just so I know roughly what I'm going to be looking at in the sky to be more effort than it's worth. Asking about landing patterns has got me equally depressing responses on many occasions.

It seems to me that in this sport, if you're the 'new guy' you need to just show up, spend money and shut up. Challenging anything about the way things are done isn't valid at 100 jumps.

This sport needs to grow up and move past the point where ideas, questions and advice are only considered from people if their jump numbers are high enough. You need to start evaluating the message on the strength of the message, not how long the messenger has been participating in your sport. Rejecting things out of hand just because the messenger hasn't been around long enough is stupid. Reject ideas, questions and challenges on their merits, sure, but not the way it is done around here.

[hopnpopper0429 0]

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This is the sort of comment that shows me how much skydiving has changed in 20 years.

Why wait for the S&TA? Why is the responsibility for safety assigned to one person? When you're standing at the loading area, speak up! You're the one in danger - take control of your situation.

I'm not sure what things are like in the US, but one of the reasons I'm currently on a hiatus from skydiving is related to this.

I've found things like speaking up to try and organise an exit order, just so I know roughly what I'm going to be looking at in the sky to be more effort than it's worth. Asking about landing patterns has got me equally depressing responses on many occasions.

It seems to me that in this sport, if you're the 'new guy' you need to just show up, spend money and shut up. Challenging anything about the way things are done isn't valid at 100 jumps.

This sport needs to grow up and move past the point where ideas, questions and advice are only considered from people if their jump numbers are high enough. You need to start evaluating the message on the strength of the message, not how long the messenger has been participating in your sport. Rejecting things out of hand just because the messenger hasn't been around long enough is stupid. Reject ideas, questions and challenges on their merits, sure, but not the way it is done around here.

There is a reason why experience does matter. Would you rather have a doctor in residency operate on you or a doctor with 20 years experience? Do you feel safer with a pilot who just got their commercial rating and is able to fly skydivers or a pilot who has been flying skydivers for 10+ years?

People with 1000+ jumps have opinions that are more valid than someone with under 500 jumps (not to even mention under 200 jumps) simply because they've seen/heard/experienced more. I will always take advise from a more experienced skydiver seriously.

There is only one drop zone which I know that has a very strict rule for landing, Cross Keys. No turns over 180 degrees bellow 1000' (I could be off on 1000') and the first person down sets the landing direction, unless if its on a separate pass. This makes me feel a lot safer under canopy. At other drop zones, I just try to land into the wind, continuously scan the sky and hope for the best. Even when a landing direction is agreed upon at boarding, I still see people landing in all directions, especially on the days of light/variable wind.

[TAXIWAY 0]

Sorry to hear about this. My prayers go out to the friends and family.

I have one thing to say then I am backing out of the room slowly.

I am a swooper and have been jumping for over 10years. I always do a 270 and have never had a close call to anyone ever under canopy. With close to 4000 jumps. I started swooping with 500 jumps. They can be done safely. But you have to know when to do and when not to. For dropzones that have 180 turn limit to me is just stupid. The 180 has more blind spots than a 270 does.
If your restricting the turns they should be 90 only.

[danielcroft 2]

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People with 1000+ jumps have opinions that are more valid than someone with under 500 jumps (not to even mention under 200 jumps) simply because they've seen/heard/experienced more. I will always take advise from a more experienced skydiver seriously.

When it comes to opinion yes, but we're talking about agreeing on a landing direction, that's not an opinion. Which way to land *may* be and I'd certainly defer to a more experienced skydiver if they said one way or the other but asking the question doesn't require 1000+ jumps, nor does taking the initiative to establish a pattern before leaving the ground (or whatever is the preferred method at the DZ). Often, if you wait for the experienced people to say something about it, you won't get an answer. Experienced people (in anything) often assume a lot more about how stuff works because they know so it's never clearly stated by them because it's so obvious. For other people on the load it may not be obvious and therefore needs to be discussed & agreed upon.

Check my jump numbers, you can bet your ass I'm going to ask about exit order and landing direction and if the experienced people don't want to speak up then I'll say something.

[jacketsdb23 45]

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At other drop zones, I just try to land into the wind, continuously scan the sky and hope for the best.

This will get you killed, and possibly others. In no part of skydiving should your plan be "hope for the best". Landing into the wind is not a priority.

1. What landing pattern has been established prior to getting into the aircraft?

2. What pattern has been set by the first person down? (did the winds change?)

3. Don't like what the first person did?...land way the fuck out.


"Landing into the wind" can get a lot of people hurt or killed. Traffic is what matters. The first person down is usually experienced enough to land into the wind as best as possible. I know at some DZ's landing into the wind is not an option because of the landing area. I believe at Perris there is only two landing directions which often results in cross wind landings. If you aren't comfortable landing crosswind or even downwind, upsize your canopy until you are.

Attitudes like the reply up top really aggravate me. Please be careful and learn to land your canopy crosswind and otherwise.

Blue Skies

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[hopnpopper0429 0]

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At other drop zones, I just try to land into the wind, continuously scan the sky and hope for the best.

This will get you killed, and possibly others. In no part of skydiving should your plan be "hope for the best". Landing into the wind is not a priority.

1. What landing pattern has been established prior to getting into the aircraft?

2. What pattern has been set by the first person down? (did the winds change?)

3. Don't like what the first person did?...land way the fuck out.


"Landing into the wind" can get a lot of people hurt or killed. Traffic is what matters. The first person down is usually experienced enough to land into the wind as best as possible. I know at some DZ's landing into the wind is not an option because of the landing area. I believe at Perris there is only two landing directions which often results in cross wind landings. If you aren't comfortable landing crosswind or even downwind, upsize your canopy until you are.

Attitudes like the reply up top really aggravate me. Please be careful and learn to land your canopy crosswind and otherwise.

Blue Skies

Don't overlook me saying "continuously scan the sky", obviously scanning for traffic. Skydive AZ also has two landing areas, one north-south the other east-west. One of those for experienced and is closer to the hanger and the other is for beginners and further away. If you pick a landing area, you are restricted to one of two directions and as far as I remember the first person also sets the direction, which is also much safer then people landing in all directions. If you can't land in the proper direction, there is no problem there to land out since its all dessert.

[hopnpopper0429 0]

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Check my jump numbers, you can bet your ass I'm going to ask about exit order and landing direction and if the experienced people don't want to speak up then I'll say something.

Please don't get me wrong here. I always support people with less experience asking experienced people questions, especially when it has anything to do with safety. I was talking about expressing your opinion and wondering why no one listens, which is different from "which direction are we landing?", "what is the jump run?", "how much separation should I give?", "what is the exit order?", etc.

[freeflyit 0]

Dude, that is not what he said. Read it again,

>>move past the point where ideas, questions and advice are considered from people if their jump numbers are high enough<<

[JJohnson 0]

First let me say that my hearts go out to the family and loved ones. I can assure you that at Clewiston Rick and Lisa run a pretty tight ship and safety is always enforced.
It is my home DZ and I was not there. If anyone had done something unsafe believe they were warned the first time. Sometimes things happen cause people make mistakes. This is one of those times. The mistakes were made by the jumpers.
Even on a no wind day Clewiston will pick a landing direction and pattern.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[DougH 270]

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At other drop zones, I just try to land into the wind, continuously scan the sky and hope for the best.

This will get you killed, and possibly others. In no part of skydiving should your plan be "hope for the best". Landing into the wind is not a priority.

AMEN. This point needs to be drilled into jumpers heads.

I saw a good deal of windsock chasing at the Batavia boogie, at times it was downright scary. I am not picking on Frontier, because I have seen nasty landing patterns at almost every boogie that I have ever been at, it just happens to be the last boogie I went to.

Maybe we need to have canopy priorities for students, not unlike pull priorities... start some injecting some sense into the skydiving community from the bottom up.

Landing into the wind would be way way way down the list compared to land safely in the same direction of other traffic.

If you are a licensed jumper and you don't have the sense or ability to land with traffic every single load, even when that requires you to land cross wind or down wind then you have a serious problem.

If that isn't the case then either:

a. you have made poor gear choice with a canopy that is too small for your ability.

b. you have a significant skill difficency and you need to stay away from situations where there are multiple canopies in the air until you can improve your canopy skills. (no boogies, no small landing areas with big aircraft).

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[tsalnukt 1]

You have to listen to everybody...no matter how many jumps or how much experience. Just because some has a rating or thousands of jumps doesn't always make them right, and I have seen them be wrong on several occasions. IMO Students should be encouraged to asks lots of questions about what they see and what they hear. That's how everyone learns.

[SuFantasma 0]

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There is a reason why experience does matter. Would you rather have a doctor in residency operate on you or a doctor with 20 years experience? Do you feel safer with a pilot who just got their commercial rating and is able to fly skydivers or a pilot who has been flying skydivers for 10+ years?

People with 1000+ jumps have opinions that are more valid than someone with under 500 jumps (not to even mention under 200 jumps) simply because they've seen/heard/experienced more. I will always take advise from a more experienced skydiver seriously.

This a touchy subject, considering that most of these collisions involve pilots with 1000+ jumps (as in the case of the last collision), the issue of having more experience does not necessarily translate into creating a safer airspace for newcomers.... Just my $0.02, flame away

Y yo, pa' vivir con miedo, prefiero morir sonriendo, con el recuerdo vivo".
- Ruben Blades, "Adan Garcia"

[popsjumper 2]

I take it then that you are one of those who will poo-poo a message simply because it comes from low jump numbers. You may want to consider the validity of it before you poo-poo it. Blindly taking your Skygod's word for anything is not a good idea either.

Sad puppy. YOU are the one the OP is talking about.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[strop45 0]

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It seems to me that in this sport, if you're the 'new guy' you need to just show up, spend money and shut up. Challenging anything about the way things are done isn't valid at 100 jumps

IMO, its more about attitude and the way you go about "challenging anything", than just jump numbers. At my DZ, questioning is encouraged, know-alls of any jump number don't get much attention and don't have much influence on what happens.

For example, I went to my first boogie at around 100 jumps. Landing pattern was left-hand and direction was supposed to be agreed for each plane load. A combination of light winds, three planes operating and poor communication resulted in people landing in every possible direction. I personally landed 180 degrees opposed to another jumper. This was mainly an error on my part, but only one of many potential landing/collision incidents.

I asked why we couldn't use the student landing direction arrow (used if radio fails) to set a common landing direction. I did this in a quiet/questioning manner and while I didn't get an a hugely positive response, I did get listened to. Next boogie, the student landing arrow was used to set direction, and everyone had to land in the direction indicated.

So don't expect everyone to immediately agree with you or do what you want, but do keep asking the important questions, what, how, why??

blue ones

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[damion75 0]

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I'm not sure what things are like in the US, but one of the reasons I'm currently on a hiatus from skydiving is related to this.

I've found things like speaking up to try and organise an exit order, just so I know roughly what I'm going to be looking at in the sky to be more effort than it's worth. Asking about landing patterns has got me equally depressing responses on many occasions.

One of the benefits of UK skydiving is the requirement to have a nominated JM on every load so that you have someone to ask about this, and that individual will then set the rules - even if there are more experienced people on the load (ideally the JM will be the most experienced person though). If anyone then breaks those rules (landing the wrong way etc) the JM can request the CCI to ground them.

If the JM is the one who is ignoring you or telling you to shut up, think about how you are asking the question. If there is nothing wrong with the way you are asking the question, perhaps reconsider your choice of DZ - there are plenty of others in the UK who want your business...

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It seems to me that in this sport, if you're the 'new guy' you need to just show up, spend money and shut up. Challenging anything about the way things are done isn't valid at 100 jumps.

It shouldn't be this way. Try somewhere else and keep asking.

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[billvon 2,379]

> I take it then that you are one of those who will poo-poo a
> message simply because it comes from low jump numbers.

Personally, I won't just ignore the newbie; I'll listen to him (provided he doesn't talk my ear off.) But if I get some RW advice from a guy with 100 jumps, and conflicting advice from Chris Farina - I'm going with what Chris says.

[iopenhi 0]

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Sorry to hear about this. My prayers go out to the friends and family.

I have one thing to say then I am backing out of the room slowly.

I am a swooper and have been jumping for over 10years. and have never had a close call to anyone ever under canopy. With close to 4000 jumps. I started swooping with 500 jumps. They can be done safely. But you have to know when to do and when not to. For dropzones that have 180 turn limit to me is just stupid. The 180 has more blind spots than a 270 does.
If your restricting the turns they should be 90 only.


mmmmkay.. relative newb here, but...

please explain to me how a lesser amount of turn to final (expressed in degrees of rotation leading to a final approach heading) can possibly result in more "blind spots" than that of a turn of say, 90 more degrees.

Blind spots , as I understand them, are a naturally occurring chink in the human armor, and manifest themselves primarily when one maintains a head-forward/eyes forward position. If those are the "blind spots" you are referring to, please inform me when you are on the same load I'm on; I'll give you all the room you need, plus some.


As far as the 180 degree turn rule in the pattern, I, again, disagree with you. It is a degree of control implemented by the DZO, S&TA, or someone with the foresight and authority to see a problem and counter that problem with the least objectionable and (unfortunately) least painful band -aid.

Although it is a band-aid, it stil represents an effort.

Thank you for your hospitality at your place; I look forward to jumping with all of your group again. It is not my intention to burn any bridges here... I just need to keep on the quest for good information for myself and the family I love.

You can't make chicken salad out of chicken manure.

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[danielcroft 2]

Because you're facing away from where you're going to end up going. Brian Germain was the first person I heard this from.

Even fewer jumps

[flyhi 24]

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Blind spots , as I understand them, are a naturally occurring chink in the human armor, and manifest themselves primarily when one maintains a head-forward/eyes forward position.

He was not referring to the rods and cones blind spots, but rather the fact that on a 180 degree approach, you fly past your intended point of landing and, with your back to it, (out of your sight line), initiate the turn to final. On a 270 or 90 the intended point of landing will remain within your peripheral vision.

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If those are the "blind spots" you are referring to, please inform me when you are on the same load I'm on; I'll give you all the room you need, plus some.

You had a chance to ask a more experienced jumper to elaborate on a point about which you were not clear, and you took the low road. Hopefully that attitude does not follow you to the dropzone.




Mr. Rogers lied.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Yes but with a 270 you don't know who is behind and below you flying a normal pattern and when you start your turn that is where you are going, behind and below.

How many times do we have to prove that this kills?

[Beerlight 0]

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Do you feel safer with a pilot who just got their commercial rating and is able to fly skydivers or a pilot who has been flying skydivers for 10+ years?

Actually in most cases the new commercial pilot is quite capable in handling emergencies. It's kinda like a new intern straight from med school. They are on top of the latest in technology and proficiency. It's been stated that a 1000 hour pilot is nearing the most dangerous point in their career. Complacency coupled with lack of recurrent training....can mean bad things.

[sriddy 0]

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Do you feel safer with a pilot who just got their commercial rating and is able to fly skydivers or a pilot who has been flying skydivers for 10+ years?

Actually in most cases the new commercial pilot is quite capable in handling emergencies. It's kinda like a new intern straight from med school. They are on top of the latest in technology and proficiency. It's been stated that a 1000 hour pilot is nearing the most dangerous point in their career. Complacency coupled with lack of recurrent training....can mean bad things.

Or to give it more of a skydiving twist, who would be better to listen to? A new A license jumper quoting the SIM or a 5000+ jumper quoting what was considered ok 30 years ago?

An example would be break and pull altitude. The SIM says pull at 3000ft (or a little lower depending on license). The guy with years of experience says its perfectly fine to break at 2500 and dump at 1500. I witnessed a jumper auger in under a spinning mal after she took the old guy's advice. (She survived, but broke herself in several places including the pelvis)

Granted, experience can be a good indicator of an opinion's validity, but judging by experience alone can be misleading. Personally, when opinions and advice are flying around after the beer light is on, I ask myself if the their experience is backed up by either reputation (like in billvon's example) or credentials (S&TA for example)

But I'm just a newb, so what the hell do I know?

[tsalnukt 1]

Every turn has some sort of a blind spot when you are doing it and with the right attitude can be accomplished very safely. It's the people that have no spacial awareness, skill, expereince, bad attitudes that make problems for responsible flyers.

People that don't swoop don't always understand what swoopers are doing and although swooping is a privelige, people with bigger canopies also have a certain responsibility to follow landing directions and to fly CLEAR and PREDICTABLE landing patterns.

Education saves lives.

[denete 2]

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There is only one drop zone which I know that has a very strict rule for landing, Cross Keys. No turns over 180 degrees bellow 1000' (I could be off on 1000') and the first person down sets the landing direction, unless if its on a separate pass. This makes me feel a lot safer under canopy. At other drop zones, I just try to land into the wind, continuously scan the sky and hope for the best. Even when a landing direction is agreed upon at boarding, I still see people landing in all directions, especially on the days of light/variable wind.

WHAT?

Please announce who you are if you ever jump at the Farm. With that sort of approach to airspace safety, I don't want to be anywhere near you.

I haven't read the rest of this thread yet, but I had to stop when I read this load of stuff. It has tragedy written all over it.

SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)