Sprialing under canopy - Was: Fatality - Clewiston Fl - 18 July 2008

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

You can see everything below the horizon in all directions as you rotate!!!!! This gives you an outstanding ability to see traffic anywhere below you. Considering your higher than normal decent speed, and your direction of straight down, this makes it impossible for someone to hit you, and as long as you identify other traffic, makes it impossible for you to run into someone else. The only area you can't see is above you, and if someone runs into you from behind, then it is not your fault anyways.
If you are spinning, and see a canopy that is going to be traveling into the airspace below you, simply stop spinning! You are on top, and its your job to not fly down onto someone.
Maybe you will see as I do, spinning is highly predictable, and for the pilot, has great visibility.

The spiraller can see below well. What they don't have good visibility of is people flying a downwind leg that will intersect with your spiral. And the downwinder does not have great visibility up.

To help this conversation along, which SF DZs are you commonly at? The swoop areas and overhead airspace are pretty well defined at Byron and Skydance, perhaps less so at Hollister and Lodi.

[NWFlyer 2]

Hey, Micah - There's at least four folks who have responded to this thread who jump around the bay area ... do me a favor and seek them out and have some more in-depth talks about canopy traffic. We all need to look out for each other in the air, and sometimes you can be right, but be dead right... defensive flying skills are a REALLY important thing to learn. Right now you're just coming off as defensive and not open to learning, and I don't think you mean to do that - I think you've got a more open mind than you're portraying here.

Lisa, Jeff, Ficus, Marcel (and any other NorCal people I missed in this thread) - I jumped with this guy (at least once, maybe twice - can't remember) and talked to him a bit at the American Boogie this year. I don't get the same attitude in person that I'm seeing online and I think some of it may just be the nature of the online beast, and I really hope that if any of you guys catches up with him around the DZ he'll be open to a good, solid conversation about when and where to have fun spiraling and when it's just not a good idea.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[in2jumping 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Let's not forget the low man (or girly ) has the right-of-way.

Unless you fly a big ass tuna boat or a student canopy.......Then your in the fucking way!

I don't mind those at all, at least I can look down and KNOW that they are going to sashay and s turn all over the place on final. I like knowing what to expect.

Ya kind of like moving pylons?

The way I interpreted LongWayToFalls post is why should he have too sacrifice a little fun under canopy and sit there floating in breaks till pattern alt. worrying about getting mowed down. All so that some swooper can bust out his big swoop?

[LongWayToFall 0]

Quote

Pointless spiraling reduces the seperation in the stack. It puts people with higher wingloadings in the unfortunate situation of getting stuck behind you. It is really not different than speeding past some one on the highway, cutting them off, and then laying on the brakes.

This is a legitimate reason for not spiraling down into the groups below you. If you are exiting first, opening low, and then flying slowly in the pattern, you become an obstacle for faster canopies to get around. Obviously this is not a good thing, and does not allow a nice single row of people in the pattern. At no point did I advocate cutting people off. Personally, I am one of the last people to reach the ground before the tandems. I enjoy opening a bit on the higher side, and that combined with a slow canopy means it takes a long time for me to get down.
Here is an example: I am under canopy and done with controllability checks by 3500-3000ft. If my airspace is clear and I am feeling like it, I might spiral down to 2500ft. Even though spiraling has a considerably increased decent, it sure isn't near freefall speeds. I could have opened at 3000k, and been under canopy by 2,500-2,000ft. This would put me at the entry to the pattern MUCH sooner, and I would be mixing with even more highly loaded canopies.
Where is the limit? Should we start making students pull at 8k, A license jumpers 6k, B at 4k, etc. ????
I understand the need to have adequate separation, and am not advocating cutting in front of some guy at a 2.5 wing loading.
The whole reason I made the original post, is because I feel that if you start segregating what people can do according to their wing loading, than lightly loaded people get screwed. They should be able to spiral if they want to, as long as they know where other canopies are, what position they should be in come time to enter the pattern, and keep their eyes open.

[jsaxton 0]

Quote

Hey, Micah - There's at least four folks who have responded to this thread who jump around the bay area ... do me a favor and seek them out and have some more in-depth talks about canopy traffic. We all need to look out for each other in the air, and sometimes you can be right, but be dead right... defensive flying skills are a REALLY important thing to learn. Right now you're just coming off as defensive and not open to learning, and I don't think you mean to do that - I think you've got a more open mind than you're portraying here.

Lisa, Jeff, Ficus, Marcel (and any other NorCal people I missed in this thread) - I jumped with this guy (at least once, maybe twice - can't remember) and talked to him a bit at the American Boogie this year. I don't get the same attitude in person that I'm seeing online and I think some of it may just be the nature of the online beast, and I really hope that if any of you guys catches up with him around the DZ he'll be open to a good, solid conversation about when and where to have fun spiraling and when it's just not a good idea.

What does he look like? I can't remember who he is.

[LongWayToFall 0]

Quote

What they don't have good visibility of is people flying a downwind leg that will intersect with your spiral.

I don't think this is the case at all. When you are spinning, your visibility is limited above the horizon, but unlimited below it. This means that if someone has a lower altitude than you, you WILL see them, if you are looking. If someone is at an intersect course with you, they are going to be well below you, not off to the side where you can't see them.

Quote

And the downwinder does not have great visibility up.

This is very true, however because of the fact he is below the other traffic, he has the right of way as far as they are concerned, and should not waste his time looking above, his time is better spent looking where he will be flying, and to his sides to ensure he is not going to collide with another jumper.

[LongWayToFall 0]

Whats up Krisanne? My apologies for putting you in the position of defending me, it is not necessary. I believe this forum is in place for people to debate in order to gain knowledge, and weather the conversation invoking question/statement is a truth, or hypothetical, is of no matter. I believe that if people are generally concerned with my canopy flying, they should simply observe my performance in the air, and decide for themselves. Just because I take the position of being the reckless, unpredictable spiral monkey does not mean that is how I fly. This is simply to combat those who believe that people above a certain wing loading should be opening high and sitting in breaks, to allow a pattern separation that is far more than adequate, all in the name of them have all the space they want. Sometimes you have to overstate yourself in order to get the middle ground to be acknowledged. So, again, my apologies, and I would hope that my attitude and safe practices be determined in the air and not through a circuit board.

[LongWayToFall 0]

I'm the drunk dude, remember???????

[NWFlyer 2]

I'm just trying to open you (and the others in NorCal) up to a conversation in person - all four of the folks that I mentioned would offer you interesting perspectives. Jeff and Lisa in particular have experience on bigway jumps and can give you a lot of insight from that perspective.

Where you go with it is up to you.

[LongWayToFall 0]

Lots of assumptions being made here, yes sir.

Quote

I am willing to bet you HAVE cut someone off and you probably weren't even aware you did.

I am willing to bet you don't know a damn thing about me, or my canopy practices.

Quote

You enter the pattern at say 800-1000 ft. A swooper doing a 450 degree turn or higher starts at MIN. 800 ft. How do you expect them to know, that once you stop spiraling until your eyes pop out of your head, you will then enter the pattern and straighten out?

Where do you jump at, that has the downwind entry point at 800ft directly above the landing area???

[ianmdrennan 2]

You've conveniently not addressed my post, so I'll restate.

Since you don't spiral in the pattern, and a lot of peoples pattern starts at 2200 or higher (I know of some at 2600 feet), I'm assuming you stop spiraling at 3000 feet. No?

Performance Designs Factory Team

[LongWayToFall 0]

I am very willing to share some brews with the locals, I am positive that would be an enjoyable experience. However, I believe that my reputation might precede me. But, I am certainly willing to sit through a lecture resembling ground school in order to progress to thought provoking conversation.

[LongWayToFall 0]

If the pattern entry point is the same for everyone, then the altitude at which you enter it is determined only by the glide angle of your canopy. No turns in the pattern, right? If most people are entering the pattern at 2000, and you are entering at 3000, then your canopy has a 50% steeper glide angle. You should not be bothered by people in the pattern, because you will be well above them, until you reach the landing area. The pattern has an area where people enter it, so that the landing order can be sorted out. If I am outside of this area, and not in the downwind, base, or final legs, then I am not in the pattern. The pattern isn't a wall that begins at 2600ft. But, to answer your original question, I would not consider spiraling below 2500ft because doing radical maneuvers as you approach the hard deck is not a smart idea.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

If the pattern entry point is the same for everyone,

It's not.

Quote

No turns in the pattern, right?

I wouldn't say no turns. All your setup in the canopy stack should happen PRIOR to entering the downwind phase of your pattern. If you need to make minor adjustments that's ok, but should limited in turn radius if safety permits.

Quote

You should not be bothered by people in the pattern, because you will be well above them, until you reach the landing area.

You should never rely on what people should be doing. Someone out there is trying to kill us on every skydive. Don't be 'that guy' and don't count on anyone doing the right thing.

Quote

The pattern has an area where people enter it, so that the landing order can be sorted out. If I am outside of this area, and not in the downwind, base, or final legs, then I am not in the pattern.

See my first point. You can be in someone elses pattern and not even know it.

Quote

The pattern isn't a wall that begins at 2600ft.

True. It starts much higher. Your landing pattern starts the time you deploy.

Quote

I would not consider spiraling below 2500ft because doing radical maneuvers as you approach the hard deck is not a smart idea.

Good, and I agree.

I would HIGHLY recommend you get some quality canopy coaching though. Any quality course out there addresses much much more than simply landing.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[LongWayToFall 0]

Quote

It's not.

The downwind leg is usually designated by points on the ground, such as "the entry point for the downwind is over this road" granted, different canopies will require different altitudes, but everyone should be in about the same area, and merged before they are on the downwind. Problems arise when people are only joining the pattern on final, such as getting out of the plane too early and barely making it back.

Quote

You should never rely on what people should be doing. Someone out there is trying to kill us on every skydive. Don't be 'that guy' and don't count on anyone doing the right thing.

I certainly don't count on everyone doing the right thing, and keep my head on a swivel all the time. However, to be absolutely certain nobody is going to hit your canopy from above/behind you would need to do a circle to check your airspace. This is unsafe when you have a group of canopies, and it is better to assume that nobody is there than to increase your visibility by turning, and causing clutter/swerving to avoid you.

Quote

See my first point. You can be in someone elses pattern and not even know it.

This is why we need an area that is considered the start of the pattern, regardless of the altitude required, with a clear marker for the downwind entry. You can reasonably expect people to be heading into this region at a certain altitude. The place for canopy maneuvers would not be in this area.

Quote

True. It starts much higher. Your landing pattern starts the time you deploy.

The landing pattern starts at the entry to the downwind leg, base leg, or final. From the point of opening to entry of the pattern, is your approach to the pattern.
If your entire canopy ride was called the pattern, it would sure defeat the purpose of calling it as such. "Hey, that guy was spiraling in the pattern!" or "He cut away the moment he entered the pattern!" these both are misleading.

If I decide to open 1000ft early, and after a control check, decide to spiral that extra 1000ft, I am compressing the landing pattern less, becoming more visible to others, and increasing my own visibility.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Look, I'm really not interested in going round and round with you on this. I recognize when I'm banging my head against a brick wall.

Your 'counter-points' are grounded in your limited understanding of how things actually work. If you choose not to expand that horizon then there's not much I, or anyone else, can do for you.

Right now, your attitude makes you a danger in the sky. Period.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[pms07 3]

Micah,
I've been following this and finally feel a need to comment. In this discussion it appears that it's not what you don't know that's the scary part. Rather, it's what you think you know for certain, but are (dead?) wrong about, that's scary. You need to open your mind a bit...

Curious; were you going to address the questions Ian asked?

pms

[wetswooper 0]

Quote

Think about someone in a hard spiral, and the range of view they have. The leading edge of the canopy is about at the horizon, and your feet are pointed about in the opposite direction. This means your 180 degree vertical view, and your better than 180 degree horizontal view (you check your blind spots when you change lanes in your car, don't you?) is directed straight down.
You can see everything below the horizon in all directions as you rotate!!!!! This gives you an outstanding ability to see traffic anywhere below you. Considering your higher than normal decent speed, and your direction of straight down, this makes it impossible for someone to hit you, and as long as you identify other traffic, makes it impossible for you to run into someone else. The only area you can't see is above you, and if someone runs into you from behind, then it is not your fault anyways.
If you are spinning, and see a canopy that is going to be traveling into the airspace below you, simply stop spinning! You are on top, and its your job to not fly down onto someone.
Maybe you will see as I do, spinning is highly predictable, and for the pilot, has great visibility.

Stop that, you obviously don't have a clue

You may see below you, but you definitely don't see on the sides or above. Can you realize that anyone under 2+ wingload comes down about the same speed (or faster) in a slight turn than you in a max. spiral with the wingloads you have, they might even come down faster in full flight than you spiralling. Than means there are many people in the sky who have the same decent rate watching "what the hell is this guy doing???", you might come down straight in front of them without seeing them at all, and they have to make turns to avoid collision with you. (and you probably don't even notice you were close to having a collision)

Even the people with extreme wingload canopies don't just spiral down in traffic (if they don't know exactly where all the other jumpers are). They know nobody is going to collide them from above, but somebody might come under you so fast from the side that you barely have time react.

Also if you spiral straight down to start of the landing pattern, you might end up in a situation where there are other jumpers starting the landing pattern at the same time. Now you have to build your vertical separation in the landing pattern! That should be done a way before

Think about that there's someone with high wingloading (let's say more than 2..) at 1000 ft hanging on brakes waiting for empty airspace to make their swoop landing. Then some spirals down just to get below them. it's like driving a bus in front of a ferrari just before the highway starts and blocking the way when the ferrari would like to go a little bit faster than your bus.
This means they have to abort their turn (I hope they see you before..)
At least expect some punch in the face on the ground.

Quote

The only area you can't see is above you, and if someone runs into you from behind, then it is not your fault anyways.

Why do you care whose fault it is if you're dead...

I wish you luck with your first canopy collision.

[DougH 270]

Quote

Look, I'm really not interested in going round and round with you on this. I recognize when I'm banging my head against a brick wall.

Your 'counter-points' are grounded in your limited understanding of how things actually work. If you choose not to expand that horizon then there's not much I, or anyone else, can do for you.

Right now, your attitude makes you a danger in the sky. Period.

Ian

Don't waste your effort Ian. At 79 jumps he has long since figured it out. Judging from his responses he is long past the learning stage, and is moving on to mastery.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[davelepka 4]

Hey friend, have you given any thought to the concept that if so many people have thoughts contrary to yours that you may not be as right as you think?

How about the concept that these people have a combined experience of at least 50 years in the sport, and 20,000 jumps? Wouldn't you think that they might have learned something during that time?

Are you even open to the idea that maybe those who have spent time under slower and faster canopies may have some additional insight into safe canopy flight that you don't poses?

You're making the fundamental mistake in all of your arguments that your enjoyment of your canopy ride is a factor. It's not.

Job one is safety. All of your decisions under canopy should be based on what is the safe and prudent course of action for you and the others in the sky. How much fun you're having and how much fun you want to have is of no consequence.

What you may or may not realize is that this concept applies more and more as your canopy size goes down. The only fun I have under canopy is my swoop, and to get that swoop, I make a lot of sacrifices. I jump a small canopy which requires a ton of effort to operate safely in a sky full of lighter loaded canopies. When traffic or other concerns cause me to abort a swoop on a given jump, now I've done all the work and taken the additional risks for nothing. If I was assured that I would not get to swwop on a given jump, I would pick a larger, slower, more easy going canopy. Regardless of that, when it's not safe to swoop, I don't swoop.

[millertime24 8]

Agreed. If Im pulling at 3k on a normal jump I get open, check air space, left 360, check air space, right 360, check air space, and then a good solid flare. Now that I know my canopy is good to land I start my pattern (usually happens at about 1800).

If you want to fuck around under canopy thats fine. I love to. All you have to do is a high alt H&P and you'll have ample time to do whatever you like with the canopy. Also, if you fuck up your canopy "playing around" then you have ample time and alt to deal with it or go to reserve.

My 2 cents.

Muff #5048

[Thanatos340 1]

Quote

You're making the fundamental mistake in all of your arguments that your enjoyment of your canopy ride is a factor. It's not.

Well then how is his insistence that He can Spiral in the playground (I prefer the term Holding Area) any different from the Swoop Gods insistence they have a RIGHT to swoop the main landing area?

I disagree with both Rights BTW.. Just pointing out the hypocrisy.

I think we all have a RIGHT to a chance at landing our canopies safely. Too me that means No Spiraling when there is any chance other canopies may be nearby AND I don’t have to worry that a Swooper is going to Blindside me if I am flying a safe predictable pattern.

[hparrish 0]

Point Blank you are wrong on just about every argument you pose. I don't care to hear your reasoning anymore. You don't have enough experience to even pose a valid argument. You're just wrong.

Whats worse is you are telling Instructors, PST Competitors, and folks with a Butt Load more experience than You, that they are all wrong. Your'e DZO should just ground your ass.

If you want to spiral down under canopy, I suggest you Exit the plane Last and do Hop & Pops. Spiral down to 3000 Feet and then stop Spiraling and enter the pattern at 3000 feet.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to Spiral and have fun under canopy do Hop & Pops. If you want to skydive then skydive and pass on the canopy antics.

If you were at my DZ and spiraling down into the pattern, I'd talk to you about it. If you did it more than once I'd chew your ass on the spot.

[Thanatos340 1]

Replace the word Spiral with the word Swoop everywhere in your post And reread it.

Quote

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to Spiral SWOOP and have fun under canopy do Hop & Pops. If you want to skydive then skydive and pass on the canopy antics.

If you were at my DZ and spiraling downSWOOPING into the pattern main landing area, I'd talk to you about it. If you did it more than once I'd chew your ass on the spot.

If Swoopers have right to jepordize the lives of Standard Pattern Fliers whenever they want bust a 270 in the main landing area while other canopies are in the air, Why doesnt he have Right to jepordize everyones life by doing Spirals in the Holding Area??

Both are Stupid in my opinion.

[hparrish 0]

If I'm at your DZ and they have a separate landing area for Swoopers I will land there.

Spiraling down into the pattern affects more than swoopers................It affects everyone on the load.

There is simply no room for spiraling down into a pattern and making congestion a problem. And the argument is spiraling down............not swooping.

Regarding the fatalities at Clewiston. I don't believe that swooping was the cause of the collision.

Sounds more like someone opened 2nd under a large Main and somehow caught up (either opened low or sprialled down) , with someone opening first with a very loaded main.

It also sounds like the person with the larger wing landed against the traffic pattern set by the first group.

The fact that the first group was swooping has little to do with the real contributions to this collision. The Collision could / would have happened with two low speed landings as well.

To me this is clearly not caused by swooping, and I'm getting sick of it always leaning toward that direction.

Also as much as I agree with separate landing area's for High Speed and Low Speed landings, it appears that this DZ didn't have that rule in effect.