LongWayToFall 0 #1 July 23, 2008 QuoteHow about, spiraling down shouldn't be done at all when you are under a larger parachute than the people beneath you. So, that is about 100% of the time...... If I am in the designated playground, I'm gunna spiral until my eyes pop out of my head. Come time to enter the pattern, thats when I'll straighten out and fly predictably. It's everyones own responsibility to watch for other canopies. You being under a highly loaded canopy are the one who is going to be cutting through traffic, with a higher decent rate. Why is it that the square footage should designate your allowed decent speed? Fuck that. If I am on top and coming down on you, I will watch out. If you are on top coming down on me (the more likely scenario) then you had better watch out for me. If you want to assure that you wont be bombarded by 300sq ft canopies from above, how bout upping the wing loading a few more points, and pulling at say, 1500ft? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #2 July 23, 2008 Quote So, that is about 100% of the time...... If I am in the designated playground, I'm gunna spiral until my eyes pop out of my head. Come time to enter the pattern, thats when I'll straighten out and fly predictably. It's everyones own responsibility to watch for other canopies. You might want to put a little more thought into this procedure. First, what do you learn about your canopy's flight characteristics by burying a toggle and spinning around? Sure, it's fun, but all you've learned is how to toggle whip. There are a lot more control inputs that you should be gaining experience with. Take a couple of canopy courses (I try to do one a year, and learn more each time) Next, since you are hell bent on burying a toggle, what is your first instinct going to be when you need to avoid another jumper, obstacle, etc at a fairly low altitude? Probably to yank a toggle, as that's what you know how to do well. This will probably have adverse effects on your landing. Finally, airspace. Vertical separation among canopies is every bit as important as horizontal separation. When you spiral down, you have closed the distance between you and other jumpers, making more people landing at the same time in the same landing area. By keeping good vertical separation, you make the landing area that much less congested, and thus safer. I don't swoop, I'm at a 1.3 WL on my 135. I love to spin under canopy as much as you do. But I don't do it very often for the reasons I cited above. Please put a lot more thought into your actions under canopy and how they affect traffic overall, landing patterns, your individual learning of canopy flight. You have a lot to learn (This isn't a rip on you... I still have a lot to learn too!) Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yeyo 1 #3 July 23, 2008 Quote So, that is about 100% of the time...... If I am in the designated playground, I'm gunna spiral until my eyes pop out of my head. I dont know where u jump, but over here that behavior its not tolerated. You do it once, and you gona hear from us. The holding area its not a 'playground', here we use it to get vertical separation. You want a playground? Pull at 13000 and play all you want away from other people. Sure u can spiral down, but dont pass people below you. Thats rude, stupid, and unsafe. Quote Why is it that the square footage should designate your allowed decent speed? Fuck that. Common sense and courtesy. The sky its not yours. Imagine you are on a 10 lane freeway that converts into 1 lane. Whos gona go first, the ferraris or the 18 wheelers? Quote If you want to assure that you wont be bombarded by 300sq ft canopies from above, how bout upping the wing loading a few more points, and pulling at say, 1500ft? If I want to assure I wont be bombarded from above, Ill stay away from morons and make sure my load is educated in knowing their place and position in the landing patterns. I jump in Arecibo, Puerto Rico. Dont come near us with that attitude. HISPA #93 DS #419.5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #4 July 23, 2008 Quote Quote How about, spiraling down shouldn't be done at all when you are under a larger parachute than the people beneath you. So, that is about 100% of the time...... If I am in the designated playground, I'm gunna spiral until my eyes pop out of my head. Come time to enter the pattern, thats when I'll straighten out and fly predictably. It's everyones own responsibility to watch for other canopies. No it isn't 100% of the time!!! If you want to fly your canopy like a half retarded monkey go do a hop and pop or a high pull. Don't be an asshole under canopy simply because you think your entitled to do so. Pointless spiraling reduces the seperation in the stack. It puts people with higher wingloadings in the unfortunate situation of getting stuck behind you. It is really not different than speeding past some one on the highway, cutting them off, and then laying on the brakes. That is just as bad of an additude as the people that think they have the right to rip a huge turn right through the middle off the landing area while the rest of their whole load is trying to land safely. The safety of other jumpers is more important that your fun. If you can't grasp this concept then maybe you should get some nice shiny new golf clubs, or at least stay the hell away from the dropzones I go to."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
superwoman8433 0 #5 July 23, 2008 Where do you jump? I want to make sure I am NEVER on a load with you!! maybe you should realize that other people are in the air and that you DON'T always have the right of way! Just because your on a larger parachute doesn't mean YOU can't cut someone off. I am willing to bet you HAVE cut someone off and you probably weren't even aware you did. Your statement of: "If I am on top and coming down on you, I will watch out. If you are on top coming down on me (the more likely scenario) then you had better watch out for me" NEEDS TO BE RE-EVALUATED!! If I am reading it right, you are basically saying the only people you need to watch are the people below you. This is how fatalities happen...people NOT watching each other, ABOVE AND/OR BELOW!!!! There is a reason we put people out with space, so we don't all land at the same time. Do you not realize that some swoopers start their turns before you even enter the pattern? You enter the pattern at say 800-1000 ft. A swooper doing a 450 degree turn or higher starts at MIN. 800 ft. How do you expect them to know, that once you stop spiraling until your eyes pop out of your head, you will then enter the pattern and straighten out? That is THE PLAN, but once you skydive long enough, I think anyone can tell you that not everything goes according to THE PLAN. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canuck 0 #6 July 23, 2008 You saying that you're going to spiral until your eyes pop out as if that's your right is every bit as dangerous as one of those "evil swoopers" saying he is going to throw big turns in the middle of a busy landing pattern. This attitude is a problem that I believe most dropzones perpetuate through their first jump courses and AFF programs. I know every DZ that I have been involved with the instructional program at teach students that the holding area is a playground. We need to stop doing that and start teaching students to use that altitude for finding vertical spacing and doing canopy drills that will help them become better and safer canopy pilots. Spiralling is fun, so is swooping. They both belong on canopy flight specific loads (i.e. high pull loads). Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #7 July 23, 2008 QuoteIf I am in the designated playground, I'm gunna spiral until my eyes pop out of my head. Come time to enter the pattern, thats when I'll straighten out and fly predictably. You can't see me when you're spiraling, therefore you are a danger to me in the air. Thanks for letting us know that you like to do this; now I can avoid being on the same load as you. QuoteYou being under a highly loaded canopy are the one who is going to be cutting through traffic, with a higher decent rate. Why is it that the square footage should designate your allowed descent speed? Fuck that. Let the smaller faster canopies land first and then they don't HAVE to fly through traffic in the pattern. And you don't have to worry about them cutting you off or hooking into you, cuz you're watching them land from above pattern altitude. And everybody gets to walk back to the packing area... what a concept! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 45 #8 July 23, 2008 Quote Quote How about, spiraling down shouldn't be done at all when you are under a larger parachute than the people beneath you. So, that is about 100% of the time...... If I am in the designated playground, I'm gunna spiral until my eyes pop out of my head. Come time to enter the pattern, thats when I'll straighten out and fly predictably. It's everyones own responsibility to watch for other canopies. You being under a highly loaded canopy are the one who is going to be cutting through traffic, with a higher decent rate. Why is it that the square footage should designate your allowed decent speed? Fuck that. If I am on top and coming down on you, I will watch out. If you are on top coming down on me (the more likely scenario) then you had better watch out for me. If you want to assure that you wont be bombarded by 300sq ft canopies from above, how bout upping the wing loading a few more points, and pulling at say, 1500ft? When you come to my dropzone please introduce yourself. I will then know to stay off of the airplane when you are on it. We have one guy at our dropzone who continually did what you are talking about. It took a near collision of him (loaded 1.4) with another guy (loaded 2.2+) during landing for him to "wake up". You prepare for landing immediately when you open. Stack the canopies up...know who is faster than you and know who is slower. Ask questions to those you don't know on a load before getting in the airplane. Example, i've been doing video's lately. Everyone who does video's with me has a higher wingloading and I know this. Even if I'm the first one out in the tandem groups, I will pull slightly higher and sit in brakes until I see the zoomy dudes below me. Then I have he whole landing area to myself. STOP FUCKING SPIRALING ANYWHERE AFTER YOU OPEN. you guys have no business landing with people with 2.0 + wingloadings. Out first, second or otherwise. I mean these guys have 30 - 40 second canopy rides. Be smart.Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #9 July 23, 2008 Quote Come time to enter the pattern, I know plenty of people who start their pattern at 2600 (downwind leg). Glad to hear you'll be stopping your spiralling at 3000 feet. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #10 July 23, 2008 QuoteThis attitude is a problem that I believe most dropzones perpetuate through their first jump courses and AFF programs. I know every DZ that I have been involved with the instructional program at teach students that the holding area is a playground. We need to stop doing that and start teaching students to use that altitude for finding vertical spacing and doing canopy drills that will help them become better and safer canopy pilots. You know, that's a damn good point! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #11 July 23, 2008 Might I suggest you get together with someone...anyone that has some knowledge on this issue. You might learn a thing er two. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #12 July 23, 2008 Quote If I am in the designated playground, I'm gunna spiral until my eyes pop out of my head. Come time to enter the pattern, thats when I'll straighten out and fly predictably. It's everyones own responsibility to watch for other canopies. You might be dead right. The higher performance canopy is going to land first within some window encompassing various combinations of your opening altitude, the higher performance canopy's opening altitude, the time between opening in which the higher performance canopy, and what every one does under canopy. Having the right away when some Muppet almost passes you in the pattern won't keep you out of the morgue or hospital. Everyone is less likely to get injured or killed when you get passed at a higher altitude. Quote You being under a highly loaded canopy are the one who is going to be cutting through traffic, with a higher decent rate. Why is it that the square footage should designate your allowed decent speed? Fuck that. My 105 won't go any slower with full brakes or a lot of rear risers than a 170 with some one the same size under it at full flight. The physics of the situation put upper and lower bounds on descent speeds. Quote If I am on top and coming down on you, I will watch out. If you are on top coming down on me (the more likely scenario) then you had better watch out for me. You're right. But you don't want "He was right" as an epitaph. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #13 July 23, 2008 If you are serious, request you read KKeenan's sig line. That is all.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 45 #14 July 23, 2008 I think every single person that is on this forum needs to read this thread. I think we really have a baseline to start from with this thread. This is not an uncommon thought process from new jumpers. so sad. Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ficus 0 #15 July 23, 2008 OP: Everyone in this post is doing their best to turn your ears off by telling you they won't get on an airplane with you. But if you can take anything away from all of this, please let it be this bit I have quoted from skybytch: Quote You can't see me when you're spiraling, therefore you are a danger to me in the air. I don't think your attitude is based in malice. I think perhaps you just did not realize the consequences of "spiraling until your eyes pop out", which is that while you are doing that, you cannot fulfill your end of the bargain in looking out for others. Remember that your "playground" is everyone else's too, and you are not the only one there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #16 July 23, 2008 Quote OP: Everyone in this post is doing their best to turn your ears off by telling you they won't get on an airplane with you. No one is going to coddle him in this thread because in my opinion his original additude and tone sucked. There is a difference between a gap in knowledge, and a shitty additude. If you can't deal with some tough love, and still listen to the message, then you weren't going to listen in the first place. I certainly remember the few times I made some mistakes and got my ass chewed out, and I remember the leason as well if not better than the ass chewing itself. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdfreefly 1 #17 July 23, 2008 I think you can see from the other responses how ignorant people think your attitude is. I will try to be a little softer about it... I've been in this sport for 10 years, and I've got over 2000 jumps. Not a lot by many standards, but not insignificant either. I've been to too many funerals and too few boogies. I watched two friends die right in front of my face from this shit, and I've watched the sport convulse from all the knee jerk reactions in trying to prevent it. I've seen rules put in place that greatly decrease the enjoyment of skydiving and do little or nothing to make us safer. All I can do is continue to try and spread what I think is the right attitude and philosophy that I think will get us through this period in the sports history. If you continue to take the attitude you currently have, you will eventually be in a canopy collision. If it was my DZ, I'd ground you, but it's not so instead, I will keep my eyes open and continue to beat you to the ground as long as it doesn't require me to spiral by other people. Methane Freefly - got stink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #18 July 23, 2008 Let's not forget the low man (or girly ) has the right-of-way. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #19 July 23, 2008 Quote Let's not forget the low man (or girly ) has the right-of-way. Unless you fly a big ass tuna boat or a student canopy.......Then your in the fucking way!you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #20 July 23, 2008 Quote Quote Let's not forget the low man (or girly ) has the right-of-way. Unless you fly a big ass tuna boat or a student canopy.......Then your in the fucking way! I don't mind those at all, at least I can look down and KNOW that they are going to sashay and s turn all over the place on final. I like knowing what to expect. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #21 July 23, 2008 This guy's in the San Francisco area, lets figure out who is is and help him understand how to act under canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LongWayToFall 0 #22 July 23, 2008 Wow, lots of hate directed towards me today. I think it is worth noting the post I responded to, to understand my reasoning behind taking the opposite position as far as who is allowed to descend at what speeds. My attitude may seem cocky, to the point of ignoring safe advice, however this is not the case. I am all ears, and have formed my opinion not because I am only interested in doing something fun (spiraling) but because I truly believe it is not an unsafe thing to do. Let me explain myself. What do you look for in someone who is flying a canopy in your vicinity? You are looking for someone to fly predictably. My previous post may have sounded as if I would be flying all over the sky, however I only meant "predictable" in the sense that you would know the exact direction they would be flying (the down wind leg) once you entered the pattern. Above that, you still want someone to fly predictably, but only as it pertains to avoiding getting too close to them. I think that one of the most predictable things you can do, is hold a spiral, going straight down. If you look at another jumper and try to calculate both of your trajectories, it is very easy to see the other jumper is only going down, and will not interfere with where you are trying to go. But, what about the jumper above you? He might spiral down right in front of you and cause a collision. THEN HE SHOULD HAVE WATCHED OUT. Think about someone in a hard spiral, and the range of view they have. The leading edge of the canopy is about at the horizon, and your feet are pointed about in the opposite direction. This means your 180 degree vertical view, and your better than 180 degree horizontal view (you check your blind spots when you change lanes in your car, don't you?) is directed straight down. You can see everything below the horizon in all directions as you rotate!!!!! This gives you an outstanding ability to see traffic anywhere below you. Considering your higher than normal decent speed, and your direction of straight down, this makes it impossible for someone to hit you, and as long as you identify other traffic, makes it impossible for you to run into someone else. The only area you can't see is above you, and if someone runs into you from behind, then it is not your fault anyways. If you are spinning, and see a canopy that is going to be traveling into the airspace below you, simply stop spinning! You are on top, and its your job to not fly down onto someone. Maybe you will see as I do, spinning is highly predictable, and for the pilot, has great visibility. So sure, don't jump with me, I don't really mind at all. I will tell you though, that I have never been told that my canopy practices are unsafe, and I keep my head moving much more so than many people I see. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LongWayToFall 0 #23 July 23, 2008 QuoteNext, since you are hell bent on burying a toggle, what is your first instinct going to be when you need to avoid another jumper, obstacle, etc at a fairly low altitude? Probably to yank a toggle, as that's what you know how to do well. This will probably have adverse effects on your landing. You are making some gross assumptions here. I would say that what you suggest is absolutely not the case. I am very proficient with flat turns, and this is all I use when in the pattern and making minor corrections on final. Sort of like a pilot using rudder, ya know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #24 July 23, 2008 If you're in the situation where you're among the first out, while the FF'ers with the higher wingloads exit later, the solution is often as simple as sitting in deep brakes for 60 seconds and letting the others get past your level. This makes more sense than trying to race them down - that just results in more mixing close to final. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LongWayToFall 0 #25 July 23, 2008 Where did I say that I am passing people? If the airspace is clear, then it is safe to spiral. QuoteCommon sense and courtesy. The sky its not yours. Imagine you are on a 10 lane freeway that converts into 1 lane. Whos gona go first, the ferraris or the 18 wheelers? If I am on a 10 lane freeway converting to a single lane, I have gotta be in some fucked up country. I get your point though. However, if there is an endless line of ferraris and 18 wheelers, and they have no breaks, how do you expect the 18 wheelers to sit there? They are going to merge with everyone else. Its all a matter of who gets to the merge point at what time (entering the pattern) QuoteIf I want to assure I wont be bombarded from above, Ill stay away from morons and make sure my load is educated in knowing their place and position in the landing patterns. If you don't want to be bombarded from above, don't drop down on top of other people, and expect the same from everyone else you jump with. YOU are responsible for the airspace you fly into Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
