Giving Our Sport a "Black Eye"

[freeflymickey 0]

Why is it anytime an incident happens there always seems to be someone saying that it is another "black eye" for our sport? What the hell does that mean.

For instance, the recent demo incident where the band members got plowed into. In the incident thread there is all kinds of "black eye" references. I find this funny as hell and quite stupid.

I sort of relate this to a real world drama queen. You know sort of the "oh no" type reaction acting as if the world is crashing down on top of us.

Someone please explain in detail and provide factual information showing our sport suffering from any unfortunate incident that has taken place in the last 40 years.

Please help me understand this never ending "black eye" reference that is constantly made whenever something happens.

Hate to break it to some of you but people outside the sport really couldnt care less about our sport. They actually have lives and more important things to worry about.

Are there others out there that laugh everytime the drama queens start referencing the proverbial "black eye" or am i the only one that finds this completely absurd?

[billvon 2,379]

>Someone please explain in detail and provide factual information showing
>our sport suffering from any unfortunate incident that has taken place in
>the last 40 years.

Simple example from personal experience -
Demo in NY resulting in an injury, later resulting in us never being able to do a demo there again.

[freeflymickey 0]

Quote

>Someone please explain in detail and provide factual information showing
>our sport suffering from any unfortunate incident that has taken place in
>the last 40 years.

Simple example from personal experience -
Demo in NY resulting in an injury, later resulting in us never being able to do a demo there again.

Hate to say it but I couldnt care less if you can never do a demo there again. If the demo was done on a dropzone and the dropzone was permanently shut down then I can understand concern. Your example is a very poor one.

[billvon 2,379]

>Hate to say it but I couldnt care less if you can never do a demo there again.

Well, I don't care if you care, so we're even! We cared, though.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I don't know about the whole black eye thing but I do think there are way too many of these incidents. Things are going to happen at the DZ. We shoulod never see accidents at a demo. I'm not picking on this latest guy either. Some of the pro demo teams have a pretty crappy record also.

[kallend 1,619]

Quote

Quote

>Someone please explain in detail and provide factual information showing
>our sport suffering from any unfortunate incident that has taken place in
>the last 40 years.

Simple example from personal experience -
Demo in NY resulting in an injury, later resulting in us never being able to do a demo there again.

Hate to say it but I couldnt care less if you can never do a demo there again. If the demo was done on a dropzone and the dropzone was permanently shut down then I can understand concern. Your example is a very poor one.

Seems like a rather selfish attitude on your part, IMO.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[airtwardo 6]

Are there others out there that laugh everytime the drama queens start referencing the proverbial "black eye" or am i the only one that finds this completely absurd?

Quote

Na...we get that a lot from tourists!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[mjosparky 3]

How is life in that very small world of yours? You should get out more.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[freeflymickey 0]

Quote

How is life in that very small world of yours? You should get out more.

Sparky

Still waiting on real examples of the harm all these black eyes have caused.......

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Quote

How is life in that very small world of yours? You should get out more.

Sparky

Still waiting on real examples of the harm all these black eyes have caused.......

Okay...because of liability concerns regarding incidents and injuries both at demos and on the dz, your USPA liability insurance was almost changed or done away with at one time...that would have limited the places YOU may have been able to jump.

Since it's all about YOU...those 'black eyes' would have affected you.

Or how about~

A couple years ago there was a couple of fatality instances in which a couple of tandem passengers didn't get to finish the jump with the instructor.

I was listening to Bill Booth at the PIA convention shortly after that occurred, he made a statement to the effect that if that were to happen again, tandems would quite likely be shut down...if not for 'good' then most certainly an extended period of time.


THAT would effectively close down most of the drop-zones (as we know them) nationwide.

Tandems are what PAY for those turbines and subsidize the fuel for the 'up' jumpers.


The fact that you are to naive to see how giving the sport negative public perception, or a black eye as it were, speaks volumes of the myopic view you take regarding the sport that many of us have dedicated a decade or three, trying to enhance the positive public view and understanding of.

You say you and your friends think it's 'funny' how those that bring negative attention are scolded at times...the BASE guys have been known to actually tar & feather their black eye givers.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

Quote

How is life in that very small world of yours? You should get out more.

Sparky

Still waiting on real examples of the harm all these black eyes have caused.......

OK here is an example. A student died at a dropzone a few years ago. The government called an inquiry and the DZO challenged it saying the provincial government had no authority as aviation is federal. He had made the same claim years ago and had lost. He lost again, but in doing so the press really painted him as an asshole (rightly or wrongly). By the time the inquiry was held he had sold the drop zone and so had no interest in the outcome. He therefore did very little to defend his position. As a result the judge (retired) presiding made a series of recommendations based upon questionable information that was not refuted. The Canadian government is now making laws to govern skydiving using these recommendations as a justification.

[DSE 3]

Quote

Quote

How is life in that very small world of yours? You should get out more.

Sparky

Still waiting on real examples of the harm all these black eyes have caused.......

If a demo can't be done into a large public area, then skydiving misses out on a positive PR opportunity. Miss out on enough of them, the well starts to dry up. The well dries up, no more tandems. No more tandems, fewer fun loads go up at most DZ's. Like it or not, public perception of our sport fuels aircraft in most areas.
Same with anything else.
Additionally, a bad landing in a public area only furthers the perception that skydivers are crazy SOB's that land on whatever, wherever whenever.
Bad landings that injure people or property cause insurance rates to rise, perceptions and acceptance to decline, and impacts the marketing of the sport. All of which are important in the larger picture.
Maybe you own a DZ that doesn't sell tandems and only caters to skydivers that pay enough for jump tickets to keep food on your table?

[skybytch 259]

Quote

Still waiting on real examples of the harm all these black eyes have caused.......

Purely selfish here - it gets pretty irritating to have whuffo friends and family point out these "black eyes" (like I didn't see the lead story on the news last night just as they did). I could care less what the general public thinks of skydiving, but I'd rather not be thought of as a fucking idiot by people I care about. "Fucking idiots" is exactly what most whuffos think of skydivers when they see one or more of us doing stupid shit (and perhaps injuring innocent bystanders in the process) in public.

[grimmie 173]

A skydiver here in SoCal (and a good guy and friend) flew into a concrete barrier on a demo into the drag races. His prosthetic leg flew off upon impact and he died. A number of my friends were there and were traumatized. I'm sure there were a few thousand folks that would never come out to make a jump after that. And it really sucks he died.

I spent about $25,000 of my own hard earned dollars trying to get permission to skydive at the closed El Toro base. A number of other jumpers donated to the chairman of the Orange County Board of Supervisors for his re-election. I had a deal all ironed out. Then some assholes thought it would be fun to do a bandit jump onto Newport Beach. They created a mess and the county said "We're not sure we want skydivers here anymore, after what happened in Newport". Denied. I would like to kick their asses.

My former teamate and all around good guy killed himself in a very spectacular way on a very high profile demo team jump. More folks to never come out for a leap. And it really sucks he died.

A jumper at my boogie flew himself into a set of power lines, shutting off power to about 100 resorts and homes. He nearly died. The boogie was nearly shut down. A few hundred jumpers would have been really pissed off if we were shut down forever. And it really sucks he has a long recovery.

I could write about 200 more examples for you.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Hate to break it to some of you but people outside the sport really couldnt care less about our sport. They actually have lives and more important things to worry about.

If we're killing our own, out of view on the DZ, it may be true. But if we start killing spectators on the ground, or airplanes in the sky, that will change real quick. And the others have pointed to the potential losses if a demo goes bad.

[LongWayToFall 0]

Injuries happen, deaths happen. Its not all bad that they are in the news, in some ways it is publicity for the sport, even if it is bad. Take this for example. You are reading the news, and see that someone was killed rock climbing for whatever reason at a location that is close to you. You say, hey, I didn't even know they climb over there, I gotta check that out. Or what about the news title "Man killed after jumping his bicycle off of roof in attempt to land in pool" personally, I would find this interesting and think about building a jump at a local lake or something so I could do it myself.
People manage to kill themselves doing some cool stuff, and that is why you hear about it. Nobody cares about grandma dying from an allergic reaction. Its these cool ideas that drive people to go out and do new things. It might be the fact that as skydivers we have a pull towards danger a little bit, but it seems like some of the best things in life are pretty dangerous and that makes it even better. It helps our sport maintain its position as the "King" of extreme sports for the common person (tandem). Wind tunnels are cool, but nobody goes "wow, YOU were in a wind tunnel? extreme!".
The danger is what allows people to feel free when they jump. They are cutting loose from a normal life. When a whuffo hears about a skydiving death they aren't going to think how dangerous jumping is, they already think that.

Its when bystanders get hurt that we have a major problem, and risk harming the future of our sport.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

...am i the only one that finds this completely absurd?

Yep, I would agree with that. You'd probably be hard-pressed to find more than a few simple souls sharing your opinion.

You obviously just don't get it and in light of your response to Bill, obviously don't want to...regardless of explanations or examples.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[icevideot 0]

I don't plan on putting much energy into an absurd thread like this but there are two boogies I was quite fond of that will never happen again due to "black eyes".
1 Dublin, GA due to double fatality "black eye"
2 Keys Boogie due to brain fart power line collision "black eye"

And am I the only dz staffer to still have people coming up to me talking about someone fell out of there harness last month in Ohio or something to that effect with various timelines and locations. It has reached urban legend status as far as I can tell. I am glad we jump Strong tandems because when I point out the Y mod that usually satisfies them and they talk about other stuff.

These high profile black eyes are embarassing to me whether they hurt the sport in a way we can measure or not. If you choose to land a questionable canopy at the dz just land away from everyone else and good luck. To do it in proximity to spectators is negligent in my opinion. If it had worked out I never would have heard about it but I still would have thought it an unecessary risk.

This is just my opinion on limited facts.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[Squeak 17]

Quote

Quote

Still waiting on real examples of the harm all these black eyes have caused.......

Purely selfish here - it gets pretty irritating to have whuffo friends and family point out these "black eyes" (like I didn't see the lead story on the news last night just as they did). I could care less what the general public thinks of skydiving, but I'd rather not be thought of as a fucking idiot by people I care about. .

People that care about me wuold never think me a fucking idiot and I dare say the same is true of your friends Lisa.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[DougH 270]

Quote

Quote

>Someone please explain in detail and provide factual information showing
>our sport suffering from any unfortunate incident that has taken place in
>the last 40 years.

Simple example from personal experience -
Demo in NY resulting in an injury, later resulting in us never being able to do a demo there again.

Hate to say it but I couldnt care less if you can never do a demo there again. If the demo was done on a dropzone and the dropzone was permanently shut down then I can understand concern. Your example is a very poor one.

I would argue that your attitude and way of looking at it is very poor.

Shit rolls down hill. A bad demo that is publicized on national media will give people the wrong impression of the sport. It may lead to them avoiding a tandem experience, or worse like most Americans they are going to run their mouth off about something they saw for 2 minutes on the news (and are now experts on the subject), and will dissuade other people from doing the same.

People are very quick to draw conclusions and negative images of our sport. Demos gone wrong, bad reporting on fatalities, it all adds to that.

I run into people sometimes and talk to them about the local dz. Do you think they remember the jump-athon that was done by a jumper to raise money for a cause, no. Do you think they remember the really good coverage that we got taking up a radio personality, nope not that either. But they remember the fatalities that we had a long long time ago.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Still waiting on real examples of the harm all these black eyes have caused.......

Purely selfish here - it gets pretty irritating to have whuffo friends and family point out these "black eyes" (like I didn't see the lead story on the news last night just as they did). I could care less what the general public thinks of skydiving, but I'd rather not be thought of as a fucking idiot by people I care about. .

People that care about me wuold never think me a fucking idiot and I dare say the same is true of your friends Lisa.

I think most of us understand where Lisa's coming from: our whuffo loved ones don't really think that we are idiots, but many of them think that the skydiving we do is idiotic. And all too often, what limited impression they have about it comes from the (often poorly-reported) negative publicity.

So why don't I educate them? Well, occasionally I do; but frankly, I just no longer have the patience to have the same, old explanatory discussion - over, and over and over again. It's why I usually avoid discussing skydiving with whuffos who happen to know that I jump, and I almost never reveal it to new friends and acquaintances.

[freeflymickey 0]

Our sport is dangerous. People die in our sport, that will never stop. The publics perception of our sport being dangerous is dead on, it is accurate. Accidents or not, the general public knows you can die doing this. For christs sake, we are jumping out of fucking airplanes.

People here seem to think that every whuffo out there is on pins and needles wanting to bad mouth our sport because of an incident, hate to tell you people but that is not the case. Incidents or not, the general public KNOWS YOU CAN DIE IN THIS SPORT, and guess what....they are absolutely CORRECT!!!

Is an accident water cooler talk? Sure it is. Is it forgotten about 12 hours after it made news, hell yes it is.

When was the last time you people gave a shit when someone died rock climbing? I would bet for the majority of people you have never given a shit. And if someone dying rock climbing prevented you from ever partaking in the sport then perhaps you should have never considered it in the first place. Fact of the matter is IT CAN HAPPEN.

The exact same applies to skydiving. This sport is a very tiny, little miniscule corner of this vast world we live in. Get over yourselves, 99.999% of the population couldnt care less.

[crashtested 0]

Would this be counted as a black eye....

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn/20080718/video/vwl-oh-chute-15af341.html

or just somthing really funny???

"I've got thousands of jumps landing in tight spots" The wind took me... cough cough bull shit..

[freeflymickey 0]

Quote

Would this be counted as a black eye....

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn/20080718/video/vwl-oh-chute-15af341.html

or just somthing really funny???

"I've got thousands of jumps landing in tight spots" The wind took me... cough cough bull shit..

You are a little late to the game there buddy. That is the exact incident I referenced in my original post.

Who said anything about that being really funny?

SHIT HAPPENS PEOPLE. IT ALWAYS HAS, AND IT ALWAYS WILL.

This sport is not fool proof. If you people are so concerned about "NEGATIVE" publicity as a result of an accident, how about getting off your asses, off your computers and launching a nation wide campaign to teach the general public about how "safe" our sport really is.

First off, you would be lying to the public if you did do such a thing, and secondly it is much easier to sit here on the internet and cry and moan about the so called negative reactions from whuffos everytime something happens.

So how about it. If all you people are so worried about these "black eyes" how about a little damage control? How about doing something about it? How about addressing the issues head on to teach the public that you cant die or get injured by jumping out of an airplane.

Come on people, man up.

[ghost47 18]

I don't think there's a question that we're engaged in a dangerous sport, and I think that anyone who wants to skydive should be made aware of the risks. But the question isn't whether the sport is dangerous or whether people die or get injured, the question is how dangerous and how many people die or get injured, how often, and under what circumstances.

For jumpers, we know that usually, people survive jumps. We know that the 25 to 30 fatalities per year are out of 3,000,000 jumps or so. So we recognize that we could die, but we also know that the chances are small if we're careful, do gear checks, stay altitude-aware, etc.

For the public, they don't know any of this. All they know is that when they hear about skydiving, it's when someone died "because their parachute failed to open". So their perception is that skydiving is more dangerous than it really is.

I think you're right that a lot of people don't care about skydiving, and wouldn't jump no matter what. But bad press fuels the general perception of our sport as more dangerous than it really is, so that when people hear about skydiving, they have an automatic bad reaction based on what they've heard in the media. When a friend says, I've been thinking about going skydiving, they may be more likely to dissuade that friend. And people who were on the borderline may decide against it.

This results in fewer skydivers and less money to operate the DZ. And that affects all skydivers.