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jpechbre

Fraud: Please help

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Don't get me wrong, I'd help any chance I get.

But it's not like we can really do much. It's up to the higher powers that be (either banking institution, or local/federal government to step in!)
.




THERES NOT MUCH WE CAN DO???? Isnt that why you talk to MILLIONS OF PEOPLE to try to educate them ( as you said earlier????? As said people will stii get scamed but how many wont because you have told them what to look out for.




THERE IS ALWAYS SOMETHING THAT CAN BE DONE...

DONT FOOL YOURSELF... ITS JUST IF SOMEONE CAN BE BOTHERED!


AND BY THE SOUNDS OF IT THEY CANT!!!!
.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

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Put a suggestion in the Suggestions forum, I am only an editor for the ads and can not add or change any of the code that runs the site. The people who can do what you are asking look at the Suggstions forum but dno't always read the topical forums.




WHY DID YOU BOTHER TO ASK THEN!!!!!!!!!


YOU ARE ALL SHIT!!! JUST FOBING OFF TO SOMEONE ELSE......

THERE IS ONLY ONE PERSON WHO CAN DO THIS YOU SAID!

IS THAT GOING TO BE THE PERSON THAT READS MY SUGGESTION?


IF NOT.... IM FUCKED!!!!!

IF YOU CANT BE BOTHERED TO PM THIS PERSON ( WHICH WOULD HAVE A TAKEN A FRACTION OF THE TIME IT WOULD HAVE TAKEN YOU TO WRITE THOSE LENGTHY POST TELLING US ALL WHY ITS NO GOOD TRYING TO DO SOMETHING!)

WHY WOULD ANYONE ELSE BOTHER?????




ONCE AGAIN>>>>>>>>>>




YOU ARE ALL SHIT!!



STEP UP MATE! OR SIT THE FUCK DOWN!!!!!!!

(EVER THOUGHT OF GOING INTO POLITICS??? )
.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

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Quit using all caps.

The Suggestions forum is looked at by the owner of this site, the only one that can alter the sites code. If you want him to know your thoughts on something that needs to be changed on the site that is the location to do it at. It does go a lot further to treat the staff and owner with respect then it does to lob insults and anger at us.

If you are not happy with some aspect of the site you are always free to start your own service and run it as you see fit.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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Quit using all caps.

The Suggestions forum is looked at by the owner of this site, the only one that can alter the sites code. If you want him to know your thoughts on something that needs to be changed on the site that is the location to do it at. It does go a lot further to treat the staff and owner with respect then it does to lob insults and anger at us.





I guess i was just really surprised at the attitude of our so called skydiving family when people get ripped off.....

Why would i or should i respect this attitude? ????????


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If you are not happy with some aspect of the site you are always free to start your own service and run it as you see fit.



Of course i could :S But i apologize if i was out of line in the way i spoke to you Phreezone.... Again i think all you guys do a great job .......Just get a bit worked up about this topic[:/]....

I have posted in Suggestions and i guess well see:)
.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

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Contracts are three as general protection, if you can prove that a company or persons have been negligent in there general duty of care (which for matter of course, they owe to everyone using any serivce) then a law suit can be brought fwd (english law)(american ???) against said company.



Please tell me that I'm reading this wrong. You aren't suggesting legal action against Sangiro for offering classified ads, are you?

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Great. The owner of this site offers a free service (classifieds) to aid people in their effort to find gear, and you want to crucify him for it?

So much for the "family of skydivers" you're talking about.


:|

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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I think she was illustrating the fact that you are still at risk of being sued if negligence can be proved, regardless of any agreement, or signed contract. You pay the right lawyer and they can sue for just about anything. While it may not be right, and it may be bullshit, it happens every day. Look at these jackass's who break into someones house and get injured only to turn around and sue the homeowner and win.

This may not fix the problem, but i GUARENTEE you that it would raise awareness of online scams, and stop certain problems (This incident specifically).

This is the first thing you read when you open the classifieds (Modified with possible solutions). While this wont stop the problem every time, it most likely would have in this case.

Welcome to the Dropzone Classifieds MattMazzocco. This is a FREE skydiving classifieds service. Beware of online classified scams! While we do our best at Dropzone.com to prevent scams, THEY DO OCCUR. Beware of (list anything that can be a tell tale sign of a scam - Western Union, etc. etc.) It is recomended that you consult a rigger at your home DZ for advice on gear purchases, especially first time buyers. Simply register and you're ready to go. Ads are purged daily so you won't have to browse through old outdated listings. Please read our Listing Guidelines before you get started.

Highlight that in bright red letters and at least people are more aware of scam possibilities. I bet you anything the person involded in this particular scam would have thought twice about sending the money western union had that one line been added to the intro.

Too many people on this forum are quick to spout out negative input. I guess you skipped the newbie stage and moved right into your throne. Sure, this could have been avoided, but for someone who knows nothing about online purchases, and how money wiring services work they are easy targets to a witty scammer with the right know how.

I am a newb to this sport, and i have looked through the classifieds for gear on multiple occassions. I never saw the scam warning until today when i LOOKED for it. That should be the highlight of the page to protect uninformed/unaware buyers from being the victim of a scam, common sense or not. If the problem is that it is a free service and it can only be maintained in "spare time" then charge a service fee to compensate someone for preventing this issue. It wouldnt be too expensive, and after all, you are providing a good service... a modest fee for that service is not out of line. Too many people in this world offer free services, and then throw their hands up in the air and say "Its free, what do you expect?" when somebody complains. In this case, it seems like this could be prevented but it would cost money to dedicate someone to doing this. If you are going to offer a free service, and something about it needs to be changed to prevent fraud, THEN DO IT! If it costs too much to do this for free CHARGE FOR IT AND DO IT! So you come to a point where you decide to

A. Do nothing and hope the problem goes away

B. Fix the problem or at least take measures to prevent it (No Fee's)

C. Fix the problem or at least take measures to prevent it (Fee's)

Either way, Im smart enough to let someone smarter than me approve a deal like this. I will purchase only with the approval of the people i trust at my home DZ as should all first time buyers. I am "Super Newb"

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Great. The owner of this site offers a free service (classifieds) to aid people in their effort to find gear, and you want to crucify him for it?

So much for the "family of skydivers" you're talking about.


:|



Not at all ..... Where in the thread do i crucify the owner? I had a go a t Phreezone ( sorry bout that again:)

And ive said i DO respect the time and effort that is put into, what i consider, an awesome web sight. I bought my rig off this sight ( Thanks likestojump ) and learn alot each time i log on!

But i have also seen the same old posts about the same old scams for a long time and think there may be a way to reduce the amount of people that are hit by these guys..... But If nothing is done and the usual suspects are still ripping people in 6 months??????

So as i have been told i have sent a suggestion so the people that matter can read it and decide what to do .... Fair enough...
.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

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you are kind of right. But let's not forget about the click-through agreement that you agree to when you sign up as a dz.com member

http://www.dropzone.com/about/TermsofUse.shtml

Of course I am NOT an attorney, but those things are VERY enforceable.

To sum up my feelings to this thread :

Yes, it is VERY unfortunate that some of our brothers and sisters fall victims to thieving assholes. But I think we do enough to try to beat some common sense into the society as a hole about "a deal that's too good to be true - it's just that" and various other things that in my mind even a fifth grader should figure out. Let's not treat EVERYTHING like they are an idiot. Perhaps having a mandatory scroll through KEYPOINT summary when one enters the classified section for the first time would be appropriate.

Also, recently eBay started appending ALL their messages that it forwards to you from other members with the FRAUD disclaimer - perhaps dz.com emails should get a simialr footer - I know that would be a very easy matter of changing a template .

In fact, the current footer reads :


If you suspect this is a scam:


1) Visit the Security Forum to see if it has already been reported:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?forum=44
2) If not, forward the entire email to [email protected]


If we can figure out how to sum up our warning in 2-3 simple BOLDFACED sentences and get Sangire to agree with us and append it to every email - that would probably be a much better solution than most of us bitching and whining in this forum.

Overall, I think this is a very good thread.

BSBD

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Wooaah there tiger.

Gotta agree with peregrinrose,if you are old enough to be jumping old enough to be buying stuff with credit cards then you should be wise enough to question the price and how its being paid for.

The "scammed individual" was lucky enough to have paid via a credit card and very lucky indeed to get a refund.

Seriously you have gotta ask yourself was $1300 a bargain,or indeed just too great a bargain,all scams work on pure human greed the buyer thinking i am getting a bargain the scammer offering something for sale which is just too good to be true to get that bite from Mr/Miss Greedy.
Hell that gear must have been worth at least $1350!!

:D

Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting!

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Great. The owner of this site offers a free service (classifieds) to aid people in their effort to find gear, and you want to crucify him for it?

So much for the "family of skydivers" you're talking about.


:|



Once again diablo you have shown your Ineptitude for even the simpleist of reading tasks, start at the start, read through, THEN make a comment, if you can't be bothered to read a thread, to see why me and the NZ guy are pissed then your wasting valuable skydiving time writing on here.

With regards to the negligence and a law suit
Phelps vs london bourogh of hillingdon is how case law would be looked at

In law, in order to establish negligence, three conditions must be met:

1.The person who is being held responsible for the negligence must owe the victim a "duty of care".

In this case providing a service where gear sales takes place, and knowing fraud takes place. they owe a duty however slight it may be to ensure that transactions taking place are both legal and do not enfringe on a persons human rights. etc etc

2.That duty of care must have been breached.

Not providing measures to stop fraudsters targeting the classifieds. and a fraud taking place. (that'll be the breach)

3.As a result of that breach, the victim has suffered identifiable loss.

Them getting ripped off for lets say $1300 (I would identify that as a loss)

The wonderful world of law, PLEASE BE AWARE I'M NOT TAKING ANYONE TO COURT.

I'm just showing how things could go pareshaped very quickly for the owners of dropzone.

I only studied for 7 years so i could be wrong. but a good lawyer could at least make a case, which would be heard.

And we're only angry cause its such a simple request to shore up the classifieds and make it easy to see that frauds are taking place.
And again someones wrote well thats your own fault... once again nice comment WELL DONE, Another person who i would not ask for a flight line check.

His chest strap was undone, He should have known better, correct!! . but somone looking out for me would have meant i would not have died. An extreme Analogy, but one all the same.

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Thanks ;)

I don't want to see anybody screwed out of anything. But some of the posters on here are making it sound like I'm out to screw newbie skydivers... this issue has absolutely NOTHING to do with skydiving, it's basic internet common sense and safety. Whether you're buying a rig or a car online, the same rules apply... turn on brain, don't use WU, be damn sure you are dealing with someone reputable and the item you are trying to purchase really exists.

Nothing was really stolen from the scamees... they voluntarily sent their money via WU to a person they don't know to get items they don't really know exist for certain. No one raided their bank accounts, they sent the money over knowing the risks and then whine and cry in shock when they don't receive the goods.

If anyone ever asked me for help with buying gear (and it happens since I'm a rigger) I bust my ass helping them out.. checking references, lining up more famous riggers than me to be intermediary, communicating with all parties. I put a couple hours of work into these transactions between researching the person I don't know and inspecting the gear when it comes in and I don't charge for it.... but it's worth it to ensure both party's safety.


Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

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Thanks ;)

I don't want to see anybody screwed out of anything. But some of the posters on here are making it sound like I'm out to screw newbie skydivers... this issue has absolutely NOTHING to do with skydiving, it's basic internet common sense and safety. Whether you're buying a rig or a car online, the same rules apply... turn on brain, don't use WU, be damn sure you are dealing with someone reputable and the item you are trying to purchase really exists..



Fair enough ...... And i think for once and for all we can agree its common sense not to do all the things these people do. Nobody i think s arguing that point..... But as ive said Common sence is NOT that common !!! It may be internet buying,drinking while driving,
Not putting on steel caps when you go into the factory... But you still put up big fuck off signs to tell people to what not to do!

So we have to say that there will be many more people with no common sense visit this site and then try to buy gear......


So the question now is

Do we do something that will mean that not nearly as many new people get stung.......By showing them how to use common sense!, and that yes, we will do everything we can to make sure they get as much info as poss to make an educated decision weather it be skydiving related or not

Or do we sit back and wait for them to try and use the common sense we know some dont have, Then say they should have used common sense?


I have made it quite clear how we can make fairly simple changes, and at least partially solve the problem......The info is there its just many people never see it......If they read it they wont get scammed or the likely hood of it happening will be a lot lower...

And if you cant say something constructive or at least be supportive of those that are trying to make a difference and stop these fuckers from ripping people off. Then YES in a way you are out to screw those future newbes.

So anyone want to try and bag my idea without using the word COMMON SENSE????????...... Please ...... Anyone?........Anyone?
.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

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I have used escrow.com to protect me in online transactions before. I dont understand why no one on here has ever posted (besides me) about using an online escrow service. I have heard one or two objections as to it being too expensive. The transaction fee for you would have been about 80 bucks but how expensive does that seem now?! Not very i bet. The fee can be paid by either of you or split between both.

Those services will verify everything and your money wont get released until you acknowledge that you have gotten what was promised. The seller wont ship until they have been advised your money is in escrow. No one can mess around.

Perhaps we can add that as a suggestion in the classifeds. (flame on...)

Sorry you lost your loot man. Hopefully your credit card fraud protection will cover you in this case.
-Rainier

Sparks Brother #1 // "I vaguely heard someone yell "wait!" but by that point i was out the door." Quote from dz.com somewhere

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Great. The owner of this site offers a free service (classifieds) to aid people in their effort to find gear, and you want to crucify him for it?

So much for the "family of skydivers" you're talking about.


:|



Once again diablo you have shown your Ineptitude for even the simpleist of reading tasks, start at the start, read through, THEN make a comment, if you can't be bothered to read a thread, to see why me and the NZ guy are pissed then your wasting valuable skydiving time writing on here.

With regards to the negligence and a law suit
Phelps vs london bourogh of hillingdon is how case law would be looked at

In law, in order to establish negligence, three conditions must be met:

1.The person who is being held responsible for the negligence must owe the victim a "duty of care".

In this case providing a service where gear sales takes place, and knowing fraud takes place. they owe a duty however slight it may be to ensure that transactions taking place are both legal and do not enfringe on a persons human rights. etc etc

2.That duty of care must have been breached.

Not providing measures to stop fraudsters targeting the classifieds. and a fraud taking place. (that'll be the breach)

3.As a result of that breach, the victim has suffered identifiable loss.

Them getting ripped off for lets say $1300 (I would identify that as a loss)

The wonderful world of law, PLEASE BE AWARE I'M NOT TAKING ANYONE TO COURT.

I'm just showing how things could go pareshaped very quickly for the owners of dropzone.

I only studied for 7 years so i could be wrong. but a good lawyer could at least make a case, which would be heard.

And we're only angry cause its such a simple request to shore up the classifieds and make it easy to see that frauds are taking place.
And again someones wrote well thats your own fault... once again nice comment WELL DONE, Another person who i would not ask for a flight line check.

His chest strap was undone, He should have known better, correct!! . but somone looking out for me would have meant i would not have died. An extreme Analogy, but one all the same.


Bud,

this website does NOT have presence in the UK, thus i doubt it's bound by British case law. And yes, the US law is based on UK common law... from the 1600s !!!! I don't remember the US case law dealing with online, but lets see if a lawyer type can recall any that charges an at-will site operator with failure to perform their duty.

Could be a moot point since Sangiro is based in the SA, and the website servers are US or Canada based...

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By showing them how to use common sense!, and that yes, we will do everything we can to make sure they get as much info as poss to make an educated decision weather it be skydiving related or not



Isn't that mommy and daddy's job?? Sorry, I already raised my kid, I don't have to educate anybody but myself.

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So anyone want to try and bag my idea without using the word COMMON SENSE????????...... Please ...... Anyone?........Anyone?



Let the Buyer Beware. There's a sucker born every day.

These sayings existed LONG before skydiving or the internet, because people were scamming other people out of money from the day money was invented.

How many warning labels do we need? If someone can't be bothered to read an obvious security warning on the front of the classifieds (it is very obvious), a line added to an email isn't going to be read either.

The words "lawyer" and "lawsuit" may be stock in trade for how you relate to situations in your world. In the skydiving world, them are fightin' words. You may get further in your efforts to protect us from ourselves if you immediately discard the idea that suing Sangiro because someone didn't read and understand the scam warnings that are already up is a good idea.

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Some valid points there likestojump, as i said i don't know everything (anything:P) but you are right about commen law, however the case law obviously differates between countrys, so I dont know what the standing or factors of a case like this would be.

However....

I do care both for people getting scammed, and i would hate to see someone bring a case against dropzone and see the owners getting bucked over.
we have already said how it could be imrpoved, and how to protect everyone a bit more from both scenarios. Why take a chance

Its now up to DZ to act.

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It really is not that difficult to navigate one's way through the classifieds or through common sense. I bought my reserve through the classifieds. I contacted the seller, got all his info, then contacted a friend in the area for anything he would know, told my rigger to expect the canopy, refused payment until I got the go ahead from my rigger, and a nice sale was eventually made. Truly not tough. I'm a newbie, but can still read the warnings on the website and can use my education to help.

How much more in the way of a warning needs to be on the classifieds?!

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Let the Buyer Beware. There's a sucker born every day.

These sayings existed LONG before skydiving or the internet, because people were scamming other people out of money from the day money was invented.

How many warning labels do we need? If someone can't be bothered to read an obvious security warning on the front of the classifieds (it is very obvious), a line added to an email isn't going to be read either.

The words "lawyer" and "lawsuit" may be stock in trade for how you relate to situations in your world. In the skydiving world, them are fightin' words. You may get further in your efforts to protect us from ourselves if you immediately discard the idea that suing Sangiro because someone didn't read and understand the scam warnings that are already up is a good idea.



Funny how you put "buyer beware", thats a law term, btw, so it turns out is in your world already.

What I'm doing is putting reasons why it would be a better idea to add some big disclaimers in there. and some big warnings, Its called being proactive. or giving a shit about other people apart from myself.

regardless of your actions or reactions to what i have said, i've still got your back in those skys, i'll still look out for others, and i'll continue to give a damm

But i would not trust you on here for anything, your attitude to be frank is shit.

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Let the Buyer Beware. There's a sucker born every day.

These sayings existed LONG before skydiving or the internet, because people were scamming other people out of money from the day money was invented.

How many warning labels do we need? If someone can't be bothered to read an obvious security warning on the front of the classifieds (it is very obvious), a line added to an email isn't going to be read either.

The words "lawyer" and "lawsuit" may be stock in trade for how you relate to situations in your world. In the skydiving world, them are fightin' words. You may get further in your efforts to protect us from ourselves if you immediately discard the idea that suing Sangiro because someone didn't read and understand the scam warnings that are already up is a good idea.



Funny how you put "buyer beware", thats a law term, btw, so it turns out is in your world already.

What I'm doing is putting reasons why it would be a better idea to add some big disclaimers in there. and some big warnings, Its called being proactive. or giving a shit about other people apart from myself.

regardless of your actions or reactions to what i have said, i've still got your back in those skys, i'll still look out for others, and i'll continue to give a damm

But i would not trust you on here for anything, your attitude to be frank is shit.


Damn, and I was going to ask her to marry me because of her attitude:$

Jon

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Let the Buyer Beware. There's a sucker born every day.

These sayings existed LONG before skydiving or the internet, because people were scamming other people out of money from the day money was invented.

How many warning labels do we need? If someone can't be bothered to read an obvious security warning on the front of the classifieds (it is very obvious), a line added to an email isn't going to be read either.

The words "lawyer" and "lawsuit" may be stock in trade for how you relate to situations in your world. In the skydiving world, them are fightin' words. You may get further in your efforts to protect us from ourselves if you immediately discard the idea that suing Sangiro because someone didn't read and understand the scam warnings that are already up is a good idea.



Funny how you put "buyer beware", thats a law term, btw, so it turns out is in your world already.

What I'm doing is putting reasons why it would be a better idea to add some big disclaimers in there. and some big warnings, Its called being proactive. or giving a shit about other people apart from myself.

regardless of your actions or reactions to what i have said, i've still got your back in those skys, i'll still look out for others, and i'll continue to give a damm

But i would not trust you on here for anything, your attitude to be frank is shit.



dude, chill.

and yet again, the law term is "Caveat emptor"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caveat_emptor

which applies to BUYERS AND SELLER. NOT to the intermediateary who is not making any money on the transaction

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Funny how you put "buyer beware", thats a law term, btw, so it turns out is in your world already.

What I'm doing is putting reasons why it would be a better idea to add some big disclaimers in there. and some big warnings, Its called being proactive. or giving a shit about other people apart from myself.

regardless of your actions or reactions to what i have said, i've still got your back in those skys, i'll still look out for others, and i'll continue to give a damm

But i would not trust you on here for anything, your attitude to be frank is shit.



Oh, I disagree with you most emphatically on the subject of who's attitude is shit. And my record in the forums and in the sport is pretty clear on whether or not I give a shit about other people.

Some of us refuse to get on airplanes with people who bandy about the word "lawsuit" in relation to skydiving. The fact that the idea of suing even passes their lips gives me sufficient evidence to conclude that should the worst happen and the two of us are involved it, I'd likely find myself needing a lawyer in the aftermath. Not a risk I choose to take.

I was brought up in the sport to believe that real skydivers don't sue. Like all blanket statements, it has exceptions. In the case of the OP, legal action would be appropriate against the person who scammed him. But in my and many other skydivers opinions, legal action would not be appropriate against the website he found the ad on.

But anyway, thanks for this thread. Because of it, I've decided that I'm going to sue the state of Florida. The signs on the side of the road that welcomed me when I moved there did not tell me that my stuff could get destroyed in a hurricane. Sure, it was my choice to move to Florida without really considering the possibility of losing my shit to fucked up weather, but that doesn't matter. It's their responsibility to protect me from my own stupidity and they didn't do it.

I'm not going to do this for my personal gain though. I'm going to do it to protect those people who might move to Florida in the future. :S

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