Fraud: Please help

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

...But what i said is still a valid point... If this person would have had "BEWARE OF SCAMS PLEASE READ" at the top of the classified posts he may have read it .... Learned a bit of common sense and then in seeing the ad acted differently.

Phreezone asked exactly what we could do!? So I told you.... If one simple thing can stop even a few skydivers from being ripped off I dont understand how anyone here can be arguing ????

OK, not arguing against that, of course! I think you have a good idea to help people.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[VincentVL. 0]

Quote

I don't see why the classifieds need to be idiot proofed. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that sending large amounts of money through WU to an unknown individual with no guarantee of jumpable gear in return is a stupid maneuver. Anyone that doesn't ask a few questions, get references, and make wise decisions really doesn't get a lot of sympathy from me.

Your attitude is arrogant and disrespectful to anyone who has ever been scammed. You also called OP an idiot which is a PA in my book. People like you shift the blame from criminals to victims and by doing so you are basically part of the problem.

* "Excuse me officer, *sob*, I just got raped by a trucker"
- "Ok ma'am. Just three questions before we can help you: Was he drunk?"
* "I guess he had some beers with me."
- " Did you get in his truck?"
* "Yes...yes I did."
- "Ok ma'am. Did you get in his truck wearing those clothes?"
* "Yes but I don't see..."
- "LMFAO you dumb ****. Sorry but we have no sympathy for you as this is an idiotfree zone."

(I'm not comparing rape to scamming and I do NOT feel the same way as the cop. Just making a point about blaming the victim. If any man or woman reading this was sexually assaulted, I apologize if you feel I'm mocking your pain. I AM NOT.)

[base_nz 0]

OK, not arguing against that, of course! I think you have a good idea to help people.

Moderators????..... is there any reason this couldn't be done? Surely a sticky with a "Scam Read This First" or something similar wouldnt be that hard to do .... Bit of cut and paste by the sheik of tweek and 5 minutes later Roberts your mothers brother
Anyone..........

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

[PhreeZone 15]

It is hard to do. The Classifieds are not the forums, it involves a lot of work to change that section of the site. Infact there are only 3 people that have access to that area to edit/remove an ad and only 1 that can change the pages.

There is the shaded Security Warning box right in the center of the screen on the classifieds with all sorts of info on fraud scams.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[likestojump 3]

Quote

Quote

I don't see why the classifieds need to be idiot proofed. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that sending large amounts of money through WU to an unknown individual with no guarantee of jumpable gear in return is a stupid maneuver. Anyone that doesn't ask a few questions, get references, and make wise decisions really doesn't get a lot of sympathy from me.

Your attitude is arrogant and disrespectful to anyone who has ever been scammed. You also called OP an idiot which is a PA in my book. People like you shift the blame from criminals to victims and by doing so you are basically part of the problem.

* "Excuse me officer, *sob*, I just got raped by a trucker"
- "Ok ma'am. Just three questions before we can help you: Was he drunk?"
* "I guess he had some beers with me."
- " Did you get in his truck?"
* "Yes...yes I did."
- "Ok ma'am. Did you get in his truck wearing those clothes?"
* "Yes but I don't see..."
- "LMFAO you dumb ****. Sorry but we have no sympathy for you as this is an idiotfree zone."

(I'm not comparing rape to scamming and I do NOT feel the same way as the cop. Just making a point about blaming the victim. If any man or woman reading this was sexually assaulted, I apologize if you feel I'm mocking your pain. I AM NOT.)

You just made a very hypocritical comparison.

any female who gets into a vehicle with an unknown drunk male is taking a HUGE risk. just like a buyer sending a chunk of $$$ (by unrecoverable method) to an unknown "seller" sight unseen and references unchecked.

*THINK* !

[banesanura 1]

Good thing the credit card company refunded the money, but I am going to post this for other users, in the event they feel they have been a victim of fraud.

File a report-Visit www.ic3.gov file a complaint. Even with the local authorities so its documented. Also contact your credit card company and explain the details. Because you wired money, I am not sure if you will be able to recover the funds, but speak with the credit card merchant and file a fraud affidavit.

Dropzone T&C might not disclose the information- Privacy policy- but its best to contact them what kind of info they can provide to you- if they can provide IP addresses to the user- email addressses, etc- you might have to get a subpeona for that type of info, but the police report will help you get that.



Also- Contact the Federal Trade Comission www.FTC.gov and file a report along with the National Consumers League.

Try to get as much information as possible.


**WORD TO THE WISE** PUSH THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS FRAUD CASE** The authorities will push this back if you allow them to, stay on top of it and bug them.

Let me know if you need more info.... PM and shoot me the details.

Best Girl Scout Ever.

[crashtested 0]

b4 my rant here are some ideas.

When posting gear, the following MUST be entered
1.Local DZ, name and telephone number
2. Serial numbers container / main / reserve / add
3. Colour of main / reserve / container
4.Date of manafacture /
5.Last repack date / repacked by whom
6.Marks / damage/ missing items (Free bag Pilot chute)
7. Parachute assotiation number (bpa / uspa / etc)

If any info is not entered then come up with a scam warning, tough luck if you don't know the details of your gear. If you've jumped it, you should know it!!

Soap Box
When did this shitty attitude come into the sport, i've seen it more and more on this site. Tough luck / I told you so / can't help you.

Thankfully these types of people don't make an apperance at any dz i go to, or don't voice these negative opinions or remarks, i would never have entered this sport had they been at my dz. i can only assume they don't jump that often.

The joys of anomity on the web allows negativity and disregard for others, which is a shame as what is a great community (the skydiving World) is being tarnished by these remarks and lack of positive thoughts. This thread is at the top of the agenda at the momment, possibly the first thing a potential new skydiver would read, Maybe think a bit before clicking away on your keyboard.

If you are new to the sport, people don't bite and will help you out when trying to find gear, beer is always the best ice breaker, and 10 mins of there time could save you being ripped off.

Blue ones

[base_nz 0]

Quote

It is hard to do. The Classifieds are not the forums, it involves a lot of work to change that section of the site. Infact there are only 3 people that have access to that area to edit/remove an ad and only 1 that can change the pages.

There is the shaded Security Warning box right in the center of the screen on the classifieds with all sorts of info on fraud scams.

To be fair its a tiny bit of text and if your a newbe, your going straight at the gear lists. When i first went on the classifieds i didnt just see it there.....

And im sorry but i seriously think doing a sticky or a bigger link at the top of the gear lists would stop a lot of people getting screwed.

But hey to much trouble.... fair enough.... just like all the others out there that instead of having something constructive to say... wait for some one to post theve been ripped off and bag them out...

So heres what will happen ...... Nothing will be done ... Even though something could have been it was hard.... New skydivers will keep on getting ripped off and you will all tell them there fucking idiots for using western Union......


Im just wondering how long you all have been living this illusion of a skydive FAMILY? You know the image you like to push on the same new guys you then bag?!?!?!

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

[PhreeZone 15]

Lets use my gear as an example.

My main has no labels, no serial numbers, no info on it at all. My canopy choice is not listed as a dropdown field so it can not be entered into the fields at the bottom of the list. Further my main has mods to it so it is not even a factory spec anymore and there is not another one out there like it. Where do I enter that at if I want to sell it?

Local DZ does not apply anymore to a lot of jumpers that got out of the sport 3-5 years ago and are finally selling their gear. This happens a lot. People say "I'll go out later this year" and they eventually get to 2-3 years and decide the money is better spent on something else so they sell it. At that long away there is a good chance not many people rememeber them around the DZ and even less of a chance that someone that answers the DZ phone or email will know them and their gear. Also there are lots of DZ's closing and the jumpers quiting then. What gets filled in then? Same with last Rigger. I can name off the top of my head 5 local riggers that have quit the sport in the last 5 years, they no longer rig or jump so you can't contact them about it anymore.

All of the info you asked to be required can be scammed easy enough. Once you see how serials are generated for PD canopies it takes about 1 second before you can make one up and put in a field.

There have been instances of people copying ads from here and reposting them months later to try and scam someone, by having all the info in an ad it makes it easier for those types of scams to happen.

There is nothing stopping a potential buyer from asking any question they want including every question that you just asked for.

Remember that this site is free access for everyone. The moderators do this in our free time, time that we spend on here trying to help everyone that asks for it, there is only so much involvement we can do on every transaction. eBay is a MultiBillion dollar company with entire fraud departments with 24/7 employees and there are still a ton of scams that occur on there on a daily basis. Even eBay has a Buyer Beware policy.

I can only speak for myself but I jump 6 months of the year and average 175 jumps a summer, its not a lot but its all I can afford.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[likestojump 3]

Here's my rehash of your suggestions, I think we need to be willing to give leaway to sellers, as some may want to have more privacy than others. I choose to have part of my profile unfilled- yet I will answer any questions privatly, as well as I provide a phone number with all my listings and ENCOURAGE people to call.

When posting gear, the following MUST be entered
1.Local DZ, name and telephone number
this should NOT be mandatory for public viewing - should be willing to provide in private
2. Serial numbers container / main / reserve / add
many people nowdays are NOT shoing that publically so the scammers dont get a hold of valid data.
3. Colour of main / reserve / container
YES, that would be agood think to SHOW A PICTURE OF, but should not be required, as some people dont haev digital cameras, others are just not too good with computers
4.Date of manafacture /
of course
5.Last repack date / repacked by whom
should not be required as some people may be reluctant to disclose in public, but should be able to provide in private
6.Marks / damage/ missing items (Free bag Pilot chute)
Thats just common sense :)
7. Parachute assotiation number (bpa / uspa / etc)
same issue as above - should not be forced to display publically - private conversation shoudl be good.

I would add PHONE NUMBER - should be HIGHLY suggested

[base_nz 0]

Quote

Remember that this site is free access for everyone. The moderators do this in our free time, time that we spend on here trying to help everyone that asks for it, there is only so much involvement we can do on every transaction. eBay is a MultiBillion dollar company with entire fraud departments with 24/7 employees and there are still a ton of scams that occur on there on a daily basis. Even eBay has a Buyer Beware policy.

I can only speak for myself but I jump 6 months of the year and average 175 jumps a summer, its not a lot but its all I can afford.

I just want to say i really appreciate all the work you guys do on DZ.com and full respect for all the free time you guys put in...

And all that you said about the gear is pretty spot on but once again
for my idea youve just pawed me off saying its a bit hard and theres only a few people who can do it.....

Those few people CAN do it though! it might take a bit of time but hey.... THERE ARE PEOPLE GETTING RIPPED OFF ON YOUR WEB-SIGHT AND YOU CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.....

And by the sounds of it these guys know this sight is a pretty easy target.. there even taking the time to get stars next to there names
now... Cool!....does that mean your making money off of people that get ripped of now????... Sweet..... Why WOULD you try to do something?

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

[crashtested 0]

WTF....
1.whats the problem with putting a dz number on, its not like there private facilities,
2.Vital data, what are they going to do with it??? its not a sort code or bank account number
3.How many people do you know who don't have a camera on there phone, or does not know someone who does not own a sodding camera... (i don't know any) Or you could say hey guys i'm trying to sell my rig please take a pic for me, would they really say no????
5. Again dislosing your last repack... FFS.. this is just getting stupid.. give me one good reason why you would not want to disclose that info(unless your a scammer)
6.that i have a lot of
7. again your selling gear, private gear lagitimetly, maybe rare cases of people who say i don't want my wife to know i'm selling this gear so she won't ask for money for new shoes!!!!
8.Phone number is intrusive and pointless unless its a landline, you can by a cell phone for $15 than bin it if you were a scammer. $1300 - $15 = common sense

we're trying to create a system that does not leave people in the shit... so we lose the secret of our last repack.... or a scammer does not get my serial number of my rig, agreed they coud use iit for a later scam but lets be posative and try and think of soloutions not reasons why this can't be done..

[base_nz 0]

Quote

Here's my rehash of your suggestions, I think we need to be willing to give leaway to sellers, as some may want to have more privacy than others. I choose to have part of my profile unfilled- yet I will answer any questions privatly, as well as I provide a phone number with all my listings and ENCOURAGE people to call.

When posting gear, the following MUST be entered
1.Local DZ, name and telephone number
this should NOT be mandatory for public viewing - should be willing to provide in private
2. Serial numbers container / main / reserve / add
many people nowdays are NOT shoing that publically so the scammers dont get a hold of valid data.
3. Colour of main / reserve / container
YES, that would be agood think to SHOW A PICTURE OF, but should not be required, as some people dont haev digital cameras, others are just not too good with computers
4.Date of manafacture /
of course
5.Last repack date / repacked by whom
should not be required as some people may be reluctant to disclose in public, but should be able to provide in private
6.Marks / damage/ missing items (Free bag Pilot chute)
Thats just common sense :)
7. Parachute assotiation number (bpa / uspa / etc)
same issue as above - should not be forced to display publically - private conversation shoudl be good.

I would add PHONE NUMBER - should be HIGHLY suggested

I Couldnt agree more...


.But unless the person who may get ripped of actually READS how not to get scamed... all this info its just a waste of time!!!!!




Sorry to harp on but im just trying to get someone to realize that the problem is THE NEW PEOPLE ARE NOT INFORMED....Sure the infos there
but unless they click on that one link( which is not in the best place ) or do a search in forums (yea right) and READ it. What use is it????



About as much as Tits on a bull my old dear would say!

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

[crashtested 0]

Your main has no labels no serial no info, sounds great, would i buy it no.. by writing that info down it already shows that its well used and may not last me another 200 jumps, warning sound in my head as a buyer. if info can not be completed than explinations must be given.... my god i'm a genius.

Local dz not jumped for 3 years, not many people would remember them",, true, but someone would.

local riggers, all info is logged with every repack done, with the name of customer name of rigger, etc etc as you must well know.... i don't understand your reason for palming this off, in that manner.

true with pd canopies, but again all were trying to achive is to make it harder for scammers, if you wanted to double check you could phone them and ask, who owns it.

i apriciate the work that goes into the maintaining of the site as mentioned b4, so I'll put $100 forward to the redevelopment of the classifieds, so somone can be paid to do the work, just do it properly.(western union of course)

[NWFlyer 2]

As a scammer, I can easily make up all of that stuff, now my ad looks just as legit as the legit ads, and the newbie thinks my ad is good... if they don't do any more research.

My concern about adding all that additional information in the ad is that it lulls people into a false sense of security in the transaction. The scammers become pretty obvious once you go beyond the ad and start to discuss the details. Once you move past the ad and try to get to a transaction, that's when you separate the real from the fake, and anyone who's real becomes obviously real, and anyone who's fake becomes obviously fake.

Those are the right questions to ask, and that's the right information to gather, and any legitimate seller/buyer would be willing to provide it in an offline conversation.

The great benefit of this site (creating an easy worldwide used gear market) is also a pitfall. Newer jumpers can bypass the channels that they used to be forced to go through to identify gear, which is a shame. Used to be you had to ask around your local DZ to identify sources of used gear... now you can just buy online without anyone's help .

Like most new jumpers, I looked on dropzone.com for my first set of gear, but I did so with trusted sources from my home DZ looking over my shoulder saying "nope, that's not good," and "oh, yeah, that looks like a good deal." I had a rigger at the ready to act as a broker on the deal, and my spidey-sense on high for things that looked too good to be true. I've had nothing but smooth sailing on used gear transactions (as buyer and seller) on here.

And having that local guidance is critical because as a new jumper it's so easy to get emotional about the transaction ... you are SO READY to have your own gear that you get blinded to the reality of a bad purchase. But I'm not sure that there's that much more that DZ.com can do to protect people - scammers will always find a way to prey on the naive. The last thing we want to do (I think) is make the scammers ads look more legitimate.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[crashtested 0]

NWflyer, rarely do i agree with you, but you have made a good point, about false sense of security.

But we are looking for ways to put stop gaps into these things.

Someone gets scammed, nromally with western union. - put up a message saying Dropzone does not recomend western union as a money transfer for goods due to the high number of scams, IN BIG LETTERS.

I understand the false sense of security, but if i bought a rig or gear i woul like to phone the rigger to see what they thought of it, i would also check other things, but i do so because of experiance, of seeing people getting scammed on a regualer basis.

All we're asking are some massive warning signs or more info on kit and the people selling it, not a lot to ask.

dropzone.com has a duty of care to people using this website to try and prevent them getting scammed.
They know the problem and that its happening, by doing nothing shows negligence, i could give case law on this, and in court could rip the ass of any argument you have given so far.

Even if you people @ Dropzone do not give a shit, It won't be long b4 a pissed of newbie finds a lawyer who does.

Up to you really but my offer of $100 still stands

[base_nz 0]

Quote

But I'm not sure that there's that much more that DZ.com can do to protect people - scammers will always find a way to prey on the naive. The last thing we want to do (I think) is make the scammers ads look more legitimate.

Well there is more they can do!!!!!

No matter how good the ads are you will usually catch people out when it comes time to pay.... Western union .... Im sending you a check for more than the rig..... These are the majority of scams going on and these can be avoided by knowing what to look for!



QUESTION ; how many people would get ripped off if everyone was to read this tread first (i know its not possible )

ANSWER ; FACK ALL


I have told Dropzone .com how they can reduce the number of scams by raising awareness!!!


I BET YOU NOTHING WILL BE DONE................(its to hard)



IM OUTEY......IVE FINISHED ARGUING TRYING TO CONVINCE PEOPLE WHY WE SHOULD TRY TO HELP OTHERS ( mostly newcomers) IN THE SPORT ......


OBVIOUSLY NOONE ELSE GIVES ENOUGH OF A SHIT AND I WILL NOW PUT THE MODS FROM THIS WEBSIGHT WHO CHOOSE TO DO NOTHING AT THE TOP OF THE LIST...... WHY THE FUCK ASK US WHAT WE CAN DO IF YOUR JUST GOING TO SIT ON YOUR ASS WHEN WE TELL YOU.

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

[banesanura 1]

I agree that education on how to identify fraud is key.


HOWEVER-

It is up to the buyer's COMMON SENSE to indentify a scam.

I can't tell you now many MILLIONS of people I have to email to raise awareness on fraud and people still fall for the common scam.

Even the USPS has lauched a HUGE check cashing scam campaign- and do people still fall for it? Yes, yes they do.

The hardest part is understanding that YES THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE OUT THERE TO SCAM YOU. Have you spoken to Sallie Mae? That fucking bitch!!

We all fall prey to those who seek to make a quick buck on those who are in need.

I am just glad you were able to get your money back. Majority of those who lose money never see it back and the bank holds them liable for the funds.

Best Girl Scout Ever.

[PhreeZone 15]

Put a suggestion in the Suggestions forum, I am only an editor for the ads and can not add or change any of the code that runs the site. The people who can do what you are asking look at the Suggstions forum but dno't always read the topical forums.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[airtwardo 6]

Just to throw in...

Remember the 6 degrees of separation thing, everybody knows everybody through somebody.

Before dealing with someone where money is concerned I usually do the "Who do you know that I know?" routine...

This is a fairly small community and if I can't find ANYONE to vouch for the unknown (to me) person, the red lights flash and precautions go into effect.

Can't tell ya the number of times I've called or emailed another jumper and asked thumbs up or thumbs down in regard to the character of a 3rd party....sure it's not practical in all cases, but a great help when & where it applies.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[billvon 2,396]

>Before dealing with someone where money is concerned I usually do
>the "Who do you know that I know?" routine...

I would add that it is critical to do this both for fraud prevention and to ensure that the jumper is not getting inappropriate gear. I am generally uncomfortable with selling something like a Crossfire 109 to someone with 75 jumps, or a Nova to anyone other than an expert who will use it for cutaways/testing only (or whatever other inappropriate combinations there are.)

[banesanura 1]

*May I have your attention please?*

Why not put up a scam page? Well- quite frankly in their terms it says:

1. They don't have to do shit
2. You are at your own risk
3. They will not be held liable for anything that happens on the website.




Direct copies of the Terms:
(A) The user expressly agrees that use of Dropzone.com is at the user's sole risk. Neither Dropzone.com, its affiliates nor any of their respective employees, agents, third party content providers or licensors warrant that Dropzone.com will be uninterrupted or error free; nor do they make any warranty as to the results that may be obtained from use of Dropzone.com, or as to the accuracy, reliability or content of any information, service, or merchandise provided through Dropzone.com.



It continues with:

(E) In addition to the terms set forth above neither, Dropzone.com, nor its affiliates, information providers or content partners shall be liable regardless of the cause or duration, for any errors, inaccuracies, omissions, or other defects in, or untimeliness or unauthenticity of, the information contained within Dropzone.com, or for any delay or interruption in the transmission thereof to the user, or for any claims or losses arising therefrom or occasioned thereby. None of the foregoing parties shall be liable for any third-party claims or losses of any nature, including, but not limited to, lost profits, punitive or consequential damages. Dropzone.com, its affiliates, information providers or content partners shall have no liability for investment decisions based on the information provided. Neither, Dropzone.com, nor its affiliates, information providers or content partners warrant or guarantee the timeliness, sequence, accuracy or completeness of this information. Additionally, there are no warranties as to the results obtained from the use of the information.



you can view the entire document here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=597

Best Girl Scout Ever.

[crashtested 0]

Thats ok then.................

Like when a dz has someone who breaks there back, after they have signed a disclaimer and they sue and still win... go figure.

Contracts are three as general protection, if you can prove that a company or persons have been negligent in there general duty of care (which for matter of course, they owe to everyone using any serivce) then a law suit can be brought fwd (english law)(american ???) against said company.

Regardless of law suits etc , as a small community we owe it to ourselves and more so to new jumpers more protection, in the buying and selling and scamming of people.

Fine its there fault and they shold be more careful, but thats a piss poor attitude to have in my opinion.
And an attitude which frankly i don't want to have anything to do with.

i will make the sugestion as stated above, I truley hope somone gives a shit and does something about it. if i can help in anyway I will!!

[banesanura 1]

Don't get me wrong, I'd help any chance I get.

But it's not like we can really do much. It's up to the higher powers that be (either banking institution, or local/federal government to step in!)

They should go after these bastards!

But do they? hmmmmmmmmmmm.......

Best Girl Scout Ever.

[base_nz 0]

Quote

*May I have your attention please?*

Why not put up a scam page? Well- quite frankly in their terms it says:

1. They don't have to do shit
2. You are at your own risk
3. They will not be held liable for anything that happens on the website.

WELL THERE IS ALREADY A SCAM PAGE UP..... YOU PROBABLY COULDNT FIND IT THOUGH ....... SEE!

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!