dnhump 1 #126 August 7, 2008 OH, How awkward, Do they give us that much time? I mean, unless, of course, they're standing in line... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #127 August 7, 2008 QuoteBUT they need to make that clear from the start and not be wishy washy about fun jumpers! Dont you just love it when the DZO says.. they are ALL fun jumps....uh.. no.. its not any fun whatsoever when I cant get on the airplane. What REALLLY ticks me off is to be on a load 2 hours out and then get bumped off the load so they can put another tandem in the air.. instead of the people who support the DZ year round. Short Term GREED can lead to a less than successfull business model when you dont have staff to take the friggin tandems up for you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dnhump 1 #128 August 7, 2008 Quote Quote BUT they need to make that clear from the start and not be wishy washy about fun jumpers! Dont you just love it when the DZO says.. they are ALL fun jumps....uh.. no.. its not any fun whatsoever when I cant get on the airplane. What REALLLY ticks me off is to be on a load 2 hours out and then get bumped off the load so they can put another tandem in the air.. instead of the people who support the DZ year round. Short Term GREED can lead to a less than successfull business model when you dont have staff to take the friggin tandems up for you. OH MY, Do you jump at SDSD too?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Broke 0 #129 August 7, 2008 Quote > Perhaps there would be some more retention if they actually taught >the "Student" something . .. Perhaps, but I have zero interest in persuading a reluctant tandem student to make more jumps. We don't need people in this sport who skydive because of peer pressure. Basically I am saying that, and it even happend to me in this quote is that if we make it just a little more interactive than just a carnival ride it may increase retention. And yes I have been on a DZ Where even though they didn't have the minimum to send a load up one tandem showed up, and the load was put on a call as soon as they were waivered up.Divot your source for all things Hillbilly. Anvil Brother 84 SCR 14192 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #130 August 7, 2008 Nope.not SDSD.. I have never been there yet....even though my old red Infinity lives there now. I travel a lot and have run across it more than once. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #131 August 7, 2008 Tetra316: QuoteShort Term GREED can lead to a less than successfull business model... AND jumpoutnow: Quote...most fun jumpers have spent way more money at DZs than your single tandem student. Boy did you two hit the nail on the head. Around 100 years ago when I was in college, we were taught that this is a form "marketing myopia". The blinders get put on, a decision is made based on faulty information or misunderstanding the actual business, and the business begins its long slow decline that most won't see coming until the cash flow runs out. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dnhump 1 #132 August 7, 2008 Quote Nope.not SDSD.. I have never been there yet....even though my old red Infinity lives there now. I travel a lot and have run across it more than once. Who's flyin' her? Red Infinity let's see... who flies a red Infinity... What size? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #133 August 7, 2008 ITs REALLLY big.... it had a Triathalon 260 BLue and Yellow in it when I sold it to Eric... I am supposed to go visit it one of these daysBonnie is there too.. maybe she might even jump with me if I showed up Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dnhump 1 #134 August 7, 2008 Quote ITs REALLLY big.... it had a Triathalon 260 BLue and Yellow in it when I sold it to Eric... I am supposed to go visit it one of these daysBonnie is there too.. maybe she might even jump with me if I showed up Funny you mention Bonnie... As a matter of fact Bonnie and I were just talking about you last night... And, now I know the rig you're speaking of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #135 August 7, 2008 you must live in the wrong country: -100 jumps here: 4 grand 50 tandems here: 20 grand my first season including gear: at least 15 grand “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #136 August 7, 2008 Tell about how it's gonna be, George, and the rabbits too. Da fatta da lan'! Blues, Dave "I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fun_in_sky 0 #137 August 7, 2008 QuoteQuote> Sure, tandem has brought big money into the sport, but at what price? That's the question. And while I don't see tandem as helping skydiving much, I also don't see it hurting it. apparently billvon is the only one that gets it. .... Tandems do not hurt retention. To think so is idiotic. Tandems do not stop people from wanting to skydive. I think its a great intro into the sport. It made me want to come back and do AFF. ... I disagree!!! I live in a country (small) where we have only 3 clubs entirely tandem focused. It is sad that they offer S/L, AFF courses. I've never seen so many students walking through the club during the course and walking by after it and never coming back... I spend statistically min 2 up to 4-5 hrs waiting for a jump and having my own gear. The place is running one 10 persons turbine plane which is doing about 60 tandems per weekend. In addition the weather is not that great. I do more jumps flying abroad than seating in my DZ. I fully agree with DougH QuoteI don't see the point in offering "student jumps", if you don't want to provide a service to what students grow into... skydivers; it is a farce. I saw so many guys walking by because simply they could not jump, after spending days without a single jump! This is not fair to those students coming to the DZ and being very welcome while paying big money to the club for the course, and then being left without any chance to jump and any other alternative. What is the benefit of having a turbine on DZ if the "funjumpers" are not entitle to use it? NONE In a place where is no alternative I can simply say that tandems are killing the sport instead of at least doing nothing bad. I'm posting under different nick, just to be able to have a chance to wait 3-4 hours for a jump this weekend. There should be a balance. There is nothing wrong with tandems and I perfectly understand the need for easy money, but we cannot forget about the other side of the sport - everyday jumpers who keep the sport alive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #138 August 7, 2008 QuoteThe best thing to do is welcome everyone at your DZ regardless of their financial dynamics. Everyone is important at your dz!!! Accommodate and welcome everyone!!! And this is why Skydive The Farm is one of the best DZ in the USA. Your crew (Hans & Staff) go above and beyond to see to it all jumpers are welcome. I had a student on a road trip with some other jumpers, we stopped at a USPA GM DZ and with current ratings in hand and log books and current student, we were not allowed to get this student in the air, hell even the 101 st. AB guys offerd to take the student up, but were told no, so we wasted a whole day of great conditons. I called Hans up and told him the deal and that we would be stopping there the next day and asked if there would be any problem with getting the student in the air. Not only did Blake refuse to be paid for the jumps he JM'ed, Hans refused to charge us the full AFF rate and only charged lift tickets and rig rental. Because of that kindness it made up for the other dz, and this jumper who lives in ATL, now calls the farm home when she is not in school up north. I can't say enough good things about how well jumpers are treated at your dz, I just wish I was closer and could jump there every weekend.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #139 August 7, 2008 That's a great story! Hey, you other DZO's, you listening? No, probably not... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,394 #140 August 7, 2008 >Everyone is important at your dz!!! >Accommodate and welcome everyone!!! I agree! But that goes both ways - it's just as wrong to bump a tandem for a 4-way as it is to bump a 4-way for a tandem. If you show up at 5pm and the rest of the day's loads are full, it's your problem, not theirs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Broke 0 #141 August 7, 2008 Couldn't agree with you more on this point. If you want to get on a load get there early. If you want to get your 4 way up and there are only 3 slots left get on the next available load.Divot your source for all things Hillbilly. Anvil Brother 84 SCR 14192 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tetra316 0 #142 August 8, 2008 Yep. It's definitely happening more than I would like at just about every place I've been.l Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #143 August 8, 2008 i know that every business owner makes mistakes, I have made alot, but i try not to make one for money now. I give away alot of little things to get business down the road. i have seen a couple DZO'S make the choise of a couple tandems now that have cost them a couple fun jumpers. all jumpers are important and it is a balancing act but a long term view is needed. if you loose 5 fun jumpers you loose alot. 5 jumpers 200 jumps a year $23,000.00 + new gear sales over several years $20,000.00- ? students brought in for tandems ect 10,000.00 + free beer to drink for all the firsts PRICELESS what does all this cost ? a smile handshake and a little time spent laughing. fun jumpers may not bring in a large chunk of money at once but over the long run they keep you going for a long time. up north when it gets cold and nobody is jumping how does the dz get money? people buy packages. if i had a choice on who to bump it would be a couple tandems. the $200.00 profit i lost doesn't sound to bad now. besides give the couple tandems a couple t-shirts or a meal at the local watering hole and a half price 2nd jump now you can start it all over again with new blood. 2 new aff grads $5000.00 used gear sales $5000.00 more free beer PRICELESS Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #144 August 8, 2008 Yep...a little sometimes goes a long way! I used to buy fun jumps to give away randomly. Loved to see a jumpers face when I said, "Want a free jump?" Also would buy 2-4 slots when a late load didn't have enough jumpers to fly. Those guys later usually brought out a lot of friends for tandems. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Broke 0 #145 August 8, 2008 I see your figures, but what is the profit margine there?Divot your source for all things Hillbilly. Anvil Brother 84 SCR 14192 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #146 August 8, 2008 Can't speak to the change, cause I haven't been around but 12 years; but my 2 cents is that a good DZO maintains the balance needed to keep the fun jumpers happy and the books in the black. Based on their market, I'm sure it varies, but without the tandems, we'd have no Otter. With no Otter, I would no tbe able to blast out to the DZ on a Wednesdsay after work, get there at 4 and still get up to 5 jumps - - from 13K no less. I think the tandem opportunity attracts a lot of people that we'd otherwise never hear from. During the week they make the difference between waiting around for the Cessna and getting on the Otter at will. On the weekend, those 40 or 50 or 60 tandem passengers are mostly people that would never engage in an actual training program. Maybe another thing Bill and Ted did not see was that tandem skydiving would bring turbine aircraft and an expansion of lift capacity to places other than the Sun Belt. Don't get me wrong, I'm OK with Cessna rides early in the season or any day it is slow enough to get on one easy enough; but when the place is just busy enough to make waiting on the Cessnas a pain in the butt, the tandems keep the Otter going. The places described in the tandem mill horror stories make me wonder: Why would anybody want to work where the only jumping they get is doing tandems? (I've only jumped Z-Hills and Skydive Twin Cities so have never seen one). BTW, I love the line about skydivers being the Foreign Legion of sports." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #147 August 8, 2008 Profit margin: This is where a lot of DZOs get side-tracked. They confuse Gross margin (or Conribution margin) with Profit Margin. If a DZO is doing a good job and getting a 25% profit margin on his sales, it doesn't matter if it is a fun jump, a tandem, or gear sales. The Gross margin or contribution margin is a different matter. For example, a $200 tandem may generate a gross margin of $128 or 64% ($200-$50 to the TM-$22 to the airplane for 2 slots) while a fun jump would generate only a $14 or 56% gross margin ($25-11 for 1 slot). From both of these gross margins the DZ will pay fuel, operating costs (manifest personnel, electric, water, maintainance, etc.) As an example lets say the overhead rate for the dz runs $3 per jump and the fuel for the load was $6.50 per slot (and let's ignore payments to TM for tandem class, tandem gear expense, etc.). We would adjust our margins as: Tandem: GM $128-2*(3+6.50) or $109 or 55% Fun Jump: GM $14-3-6.50 or $4.50 or 18% Now apply the 200 jumps the fun jumper may make during the year and the margin is $900, but still 18%. So over the course of the year the DZO has $109 at 55% from the one tandem or $900 at 18% from the fun jumper from which he can pay the rest of the true overhead like insurance, interest, etc. As you can see the "margins" can be very deceptive. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 5 #148 August 8, 2008 "Should that DZ be bitched at for not having enough load abilitiy for me to do the 5-6 jumps I wanted to do?" In my opinion, just like any other "sport" let's say snow skiing, if the place of business is going to be allowed to share and benefit from REGULAR PARTICIPANTS money and time in the sport, then they should cater FIRST to the regular /participants/jumpers and then to students. If they wish to be a student factory then let them get their own insurance, planes, landing areas, licenses and what ever else it takes to run that business. You don't see a bunch of seasoned skiers sitting around waiting for students to go up first on the runs do you? I'm only saying that if they do nothing for the sport, the sport should do nothing for them.Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #149 August 8, 2008 <> Actually, yes, sort of.... Students have express queues at lift stations. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #150 August 8, 2008 QuoteIf they wish to be a student factory then let them get their own insurance, planes, landing areas, licenses and what ever else it takes to run that business Um, that is what a tandem factory is. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
