Frickin Tandem Factories....

[danielcroft 2]

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And those 2 people flying within a foot of you on your AFF jumps won't pull for you, or the static line won't pull for you?

Great point.

Is it all about the landing then? Or maybe I just didn't want to die more than you guys?

I love that people have this built in desire to distinguish themselves from others. To pick out differences and then pick on them.

If you think that tandem skydiving for tourists is a "carnival ride" that's fine but to suggest that people who get into the sport via tandems are somehow less a "skydiver" is really poor form. It really smacks of insecurity IMO.

I can see that people who are willing to jump from a plane on their own (S/L only btw) maybe have a higher barrier to leap in terms of entry into the sport but for fuck's sake people, falling from 13.5k with someone you don't know attached to your back hoping that they'll save you? It could be suggested that that's even more crazy.

[billvon 2,379]

>If you think that tandem skydiving for tourists is a "carnival ride" that's
>fine but to suggest that people who get into the sport via tandems are
>somehow less a "skydiver" is really poor form. It really smacks of
>insecurity IMO.

Skydivers who got into the sport via tandem are indeed just as much of a skydiver as anyone else. But that's because they eventually did solo skydives, not because they did tandems.

[Andy9o8 0]

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I've sat around a SL DZ most of a day and only got to make 2 jumps since there were enough SL and tandem students and other jumpers around that I couldn't get on anymore loads then that. Should that DZ be bitched at for not having enough load abilitiy for me to do the 5-6 jumps I wanted to do?

Yes. First they should be bitched at for not doing even more tandems, so they'd have enough money to get another plane. Then when they get that plane, they should be bitched at for being a tandem mill.

[ghost47 18]

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And those 2 people flying within a foot of you on your AFF jumps won't pull for you, or the static line won't pull for you?

They'll most likely pull for you. But don't we spend six hours learning that WE are responsible for pulling? That one or both jumpmasters might be lost somehow? I've seen vidoes of AFF instructors being shaken off. I have yet to see a video of a tandem master being shaken off.

Plus the tandem master flies and lands. Until my FJC, I had no clue that you needed to flare a parachute, and that failure to flare correctly could result in serious injury or death. Nor did the danger of being taken out by someone in a congested landing pattern occur to me (not that I've ever had to land in a congested landing pattern (yet)). Or dealing with mals.

[danielcroft 2]

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Skydivers who got into the sport via tandem are indeed just as much of a skydiver as anyone else. But that's because they eventually did solo skydives, not because they did tandems.

I can't win. I'm banning myself from this thread.

[klingeme 0]

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And those 2 people flying within a foot of you on your AFF jumps won't pull for you, or the static line won't pull for you?

Great point.

Is it all about the landing then? Or maybe I just didn't want to die more than you guys?

I love that people have this built in desire to distinguish themselves from others. To pick out differences and then pick on them.

If you think that tandem skydiving for tourists is a "carnival ride" that's fine but to suggest that people who get into the sport via tandems are somehow less a "skydiver" is really poor form. It really smacks of insecurity IMO.

I can see that people who are willing to jump from a plane on their own (S/L only btw) maybe have a higher barrier to leap in terms of entry into the sport but for fuck's sake people, falling from 13.5k with someone you don't know attached to your back hoping that they'll save you? It could be suggested
that that's even more crazy.

Read my previous post, I was the guy who did 3 tandems as a part of my IAF training and I said it could be used as a GREAT traiing tool. To think that is is not valid because the TI can pull if you don't is valid, however, the same is true for AFF and the 2 jumpmasters.

[klingeme 0]

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And those 2 people flying within a foot of you on your AFF jumps won't pull for you, or the static line won't pull for you?

They'll most likely pull for you. But don't we spend six hours learning that WE are responsible for pulling? That one or both jumpmasters might be lost somehow? I've seen vidoes of AFF instructors being shaken off. I have yet to see a video of a tandem master being shaken off.

Plus the tandem master flies and lands. Until my FJC, I had no clue that you needed to flare a parachute, and that failure to flare correctly could result in serious injury or death. Nor did the danger of being taken out by someone in a congested landing pattern occur to me (not that I've ever had to land in a congested landing pattern (yet)). Or dealing with mals.

I understand this, but when I was doing the IAF, everything I was thinking about was, What is he doing to my arms to make us turn?; What Altitude are we at? I've got to pull by 6,000 (I think that's where it was). What is he saying about the slider? How fast does this canopy fly? What is he saying about the "Pattern"?

These were the thoughts going through MY head. I was in the "learning mode" and I was taking EVERYTHING in that I could.

I think a tandem is a GREAT way to start your training.

Mark Klingelhoefer

[skybytch 259]

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I think you'll be hard-pressed to persuade me that a first-time tandem jumper conquers that any less than you or I did on our first jumps.

Hearing a passenger say "I'm soooo glad you're here to take care of me!!" was all it took to persuade me that someone doing AFF or S/L conquers their fears in a much deeper manner than does someone doing a tandem.

[someday 0]

too bad a bunch of us cant all get together and make skydive island (holy crap that would kick ass)

make a dz (west coast pls) and keep everything..family like?

[skybytch 259]

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I didn't blame the tandems though.. it seemed a simple matter of not enough instructors with the right ratings to go around.

Wanna know why there weren't enough AFF instructors to go around? Because you can make a lot more money and a lot more jumps in the same amount of time with a tandem rating. And you don't have to teach, either, since most of your passengers have no desire to learn anything about what they are doing.

[livendive 8]

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I think you'll be hard-pressed to persuade me that a first-time tandem jumper conquers that any less than you or I did on our first jumps.

Hearing a passenger say "I'm soooo glad you're here to take care of me!!" was all it took to persuade me that someone doing AFF or S/L conquers their fears in a much deeper manner than does someone doing a tandem.

It depends on the student and their fears more than the method, and those with the deepest seated fears don't really have any access to skydiving other than tandem. I've got some experience with every method, and as far as conquering fear goes, the most accomplished student I've had (by far) was one particular tandem student. Actually, the top 5 or so were probably tandems. For people that scared, solo jumps are just not really within the realm of reason. I'm glad I've gotten to play a part in helping a wide variety of people accomplish a wide variety of goals in a wide variety of ways...including tandem jumps.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[virtek 0]

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Wanna know why there weren't enough AFF instructors to go around? Because you can make a lot more money and a lot more jumps in the same amount of time with a tandem rating.

I have my own thoughts on this - maybe there were enough AFF instructors - they were doing AFF that day... but it seems there was a shortage of Tandem instructors.. that's why the AFF instructors did the Tandems...

There will always be more Tandem instructors than AFF instructors. TI is easier to attain than AFF instructor, not the other way around.

[Ether 0]

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Wanna know why there weren't enough AFF instructors to go around? Because you can make a lot more money and a lot more jumps in the same amount of time with a tandem rating. And you don't have to teach, either, since most of your passengers have no desire to learn anything about what they are doing.

And maybe *that* is the heart of the matter. Insert crosslink to NickDG's excellent thread.

Looking for newbie rig, all components...

[skybytch 259]

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I have my own thoughts on this - maybe there were enough AFF instructors - they were doing AFF that day... but it seems there was a shortage of Tandem instructors.. that's why the AFF instructors did the Tandems...

I know a few people with both ratings. All but one or two of them complain if they have to do AFF when they could be doing tandems.

Cuz it's not about teaching people to skydive. It's about making money and a bunch of jumps.

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TI is easier to attain than AFF instructor, not the other way around.

And why is that?

[skybytch 259]

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I've got some experience with every method, and as far as conquering fear goes, the most accomplished student I've had (by far) was one particular tandem student. Actually, the top 5 or so were probably tandems. For people that scared, solo jumps are just not really within the realm of reason

I'd class those people with those with other limitations, physical or mental. I smile everytime I see or read about someone with some challenge or another making a tandem jump. That's the best thing about tandem skydiving - people who could never possibly do a solo can experience some of what we take for granted.

I still maintain that the average Joe or Jane Whuffo who does an AFF jump has conquered fear in a much deeper manner than the average Joe or Jane Whuffo who does a tandem.

[NickDG 23]

>>I didn't blame the tandems though.. it seemed a simple matter of not enough instructors with the right ratings to go around.
>>>Wanna know why there weren't enough AFF instructors to go around? Because you can make a lot more money and a lot more jumps in the same amount of time with a tandem rating. And you don't have to teach, either, since most of your passengers have no desire to learn anything about what they are doing.
Skybitch hit the nail on the head. Tandem is a zero sum game. The only reason tandem came remotely close to its original intent - was DZOs found out the hybrid tandem programs pencil out better than straight AFF programs. And I'm afraid AFF, as we know it, is doomed in the long run. In a few years the DZOs in the field are going to convince the DZOs at USPA that after five tandems a student can go straight to coach jumps. Then once they figure out a way to remotely fire a student's main, cutaway system, and reserve, they won’t even need tandem masters or coaches anymore. Then we'll have a minimum wage guy that doesn't even jump sitting out in the landing area with binoculars working a big electronics board.

It'll be called the Zap method of skydiving instruction . . .

NickD

[billvon 2,379]

>Wanna know why there weren't enough AFF instructors to go around?
>Because you can make a lot more money and a lot more jumps in the
>same amount of time with a tandem rating.

Definitely true. Of course, you can also make a lot more money fixing cars. And all things being equal, I'd rather people like Uli were on the drop zone, helping turn loads, than fixing cars. Again, it's not 'real' skydiving - but it helps keep other skydivers in the air.

[PeteS 0]

Hey Nick, Bob Sinclair already had the "Zap Strap" in the 60's. Lodi is a Tandem mill but when the fun jumpers show up, Bill pulls out a Twin Otter and another if needed.

[faulknerwn 36]

I think it depends. I know of several tandem instructors who would turn down tandems anytime to do AFF. I don't do tandem (too short to reach the drogue!) but do do video and AFF. I love upper level AFFs where I get to fly. They're a lot of fun. I can make more money on a video but would rather do upper level AFF. Level 1's and 2's aren't as much fun but I still like them because especially on level 1 - you never know what's gonna happen!

There are some people who in it for the money only - but many people are out there because they love to teach..

[virgin-burner 1]

i agree with a lot of the points made, thats why i choose to do AFF straight away.

but there's a big BUT to it: my dropzone which is a club, runs a high number of tandems a year. probably the most in the country. but it also pays for the biggest jumpship in the country, it pays for the lowest jump prices around, it pays for full-time staff which consist of mostly professional jumpers.. all other clubs have "weekend-warriors" as instuctors mostly. sometimes there's not much more room on the plane, might have to wait a load out, but still, us sportjumpers get to jump!

oh, this weekend i even got a HUGE sticker on the rear-window of my car: "tandem skydiving, logo, website".
i love it there and gladly advertise for free!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[Broke 0]

Ahh but have you ever been told that you can't jump because of tandems. Sure the loads may be backed up, but lets face it Tandems help to keep the cost of jump tickets down for the rest of us. As long as they aren't bumping people to make room for another tandem pair then that's ok by my book.

I believe the OP was venting about how she was told she would be able to jump, and when she showed up at the DZ was turned away. Although I would say there are some people who have mentioned that there are TI's out there who treat the Tandem jumping like more of a Carnival Ride then a learning experiance. Perhaps there would be some more retention if they actually taught the "Student" something, and made the whole experiance more satisfying instead of them walking away feeling like they just got shown the door after chunking down their money.

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[wrightskyguy 1]

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too bad a bunch of us cant all get together and make skydive island (holy crap that would kick ass)

make a dz (west coast pls) and keep everything..family like?

***Yeah, we could all pitch in and buy a balloon with a 13000' tether. We would quit our jobs and live off of the land, and since the man would'nt be allowed on the property, we could stay stoned all day long on the weed we grow out back. We would shun all this newfangled gear ,go back to military surplus, and do baton passes till we passed out. If a DZO or someone wanting to do a tandem showed up , we would kill and eat them and use their money to buy beer. That's how they would have done it in the early days.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

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[Broke 0]

Hey if it is a teathered balloon then we could all use base rigs

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[virgin-burner 1]

in fact, yes i have. or there were only 4 more slots on the plane and our group got smaller because of that.

you're right about the OP's rant, but the thread kind of drifted away a little from that, becoming a flame-fest against tandems in general.

sure, skydiving's not for everyone. and for most people, a tandem's gonna be the wildest (carnival) ride of their lifes. and if i talk to our TI's, very few of the clients (what a shitty word, but true nonetheless) express the wish of actually steering the canopy or really learn something about the sport, the gear and so on. even some of the AFF first jumpers really only show up, get their instruction during the day to make their first and final jump in the evening.

on the other hand, we have a couple of people that hang out around the DZ a lot, not only girlfriends of jumpers, but also mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters of someone. some turn up for the free beer at night after they've been riding their motorcycle the whole day. some are just there and enjoy the people, the music, the atmosphere, they love watching us land, pack our chutes.. which is really cool i think!

some of them would never take the leap if their life depended on it! for me, thats part of what it's all about, people from all walks of life, even non-jumpers, just get together.. and do what they like!

maybe the one's that are super-serious about our sport should loosen up a little, lean back, and just relax and enjoy!?

i know, i'm drifting off even more now..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[dnhump 1]

In a few years the DZOs in the field are going to convince the DZOs at USPA that after five tandems a student can go straight to coach jumps. Then once they figure out a way to remotely fire a student's main, cutaway system, and reserve, they won’t even need tandem masters or coaches anymore. Then we'll have a minimum wage guy that doesn't even jump sitting out in the landing area with binoculars working a big electronics board.

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WOW! Holy shit, Nick, that's a great idea... I mean the way you and Frank and Dave T. taught me is obviously antiquated... Remote controlled main-fire with cut-away/sky-hook... What were you thinking back then?

Imagine the possibilities...$$$$$

Let's do it. FUCK ALL THAT! WE'VE GOTTA GET ON WITH THESE!

My dropzone is going to be real, Nick. It's coming soon to San Diego County...

My twins are third-generation skydivers and NONE of us has EVER touched a tandem rig... and never will.

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