Listen to your gut!!

[Orange1 0]

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You mean you won't jump without an alti?

nope. IMO, thats just stupid.

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What if your alti fails halfway through a jump? You got eyes haven't you? Can't do your landing pattern without looking at an alti? At 100 jumps? I'd seriously work on that!

I mean I could probably do a pattern without an alti but it wouldn't be at 1000, 750 and 250. It might be within a hundred feet or so of those numbers but I'd rather stick with the altimeter for now.

Wow. I did my first jump (SL) with bats, and another 12 or so without an alti or any ground or radio assistance. Maybe old-fashioned methods do help ingrain some things better. Since then I basically use my alti to doublecheck what height I am entering the pattern at and that is the last time I look at it. I wouldn't like not to have a working alti on a solo jump at pull time, even though I am comfortable I could eyeball pull height if I had to, but I must echo dragon2's comments that I am surprised that at 100 jumps you don't feel comfortable in a landing pattern without one.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Jeth 0]

Hey this guy U are dissing for not jumping without an alti has barely 100 jumps. He just graduated AFP like 2 month ago. He has not been jumping long enough to be able to judge altitude with his eyes alone. I think he definitely made the right call riding the plane down.

Yes, of course, someday his alti could fail and he'd have to land without one. But for him to put himself in that situation when he has a choice - that sounds stupid to me.

Skittles - good job on deciding to ride the plane down.

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[Orange1 0]

hey - if he felt uncomfortable jumping, that's his call, and that's fine. i've ridden the plane down once before too. but i don't have many more jumps than he does at all and am surprised he does not feel comfortable in a landing pattern without an alti. not sure what length of time has to do with it, 100 landings is 100 landings - isn't it? and judging by his sig line he plans to get his D-licence by the end of this year...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Broke 0]

listen to some of the old timers on visual referances to altitude. Or you can jump with an analogue altimeter, so you do't have to worry about turning it on or off. Also you don't need to know exact altitudes when you set up your pattern. Actually if you use the accuracy trick to set your pattern you may not need to have an altimeter at all and you will be able to land spot on all the time.


As for the OP I remember doing a High alti hop and pop I was right over the DZ when I got out. I was enjoying the sunset and not really paying attention to the winds. Welp I got caught downwind, and wound up hitting the low branch on a tree. I figured I was too low to turn, and had no place to turn to. So I flared and hoped that I wouldn't catch the tree. Well I caught the tree, and my lines acted like a swing, and my butt hit the ground. My problem with that jump is that I was fixated on the sunset, and not what my ground track was doing. Then I got caught downwind, and I though I could squeak in to the landing area.

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[billvon 2,396]

>I mean I could probably do a pattern without an alti but it wouldn't be at 1000, 750 and 250.

As an aside, you have to be able to fly a pattern without an altimeter. Indeed, it is far better to be flying with your eyes out and your ears open than to be paying attention to an altimeter in the pattern. It's a great learning tool, but the goal should be to judge altitude without one.

Every experienced jumper should be able to exit an airplane with no other gear other than a rig and land safely without needing any additional devices. If you feel you could not, then it would be a good idea to work on the missing skills.

[airtwardo 6]

You mean you won't jump without an alti?

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nope. IMO, that's just stupid.

Know your Abilities and Limitations.

If you're not comfortable jumping without an altimeter, purple sox, 'lucky' underwear, a fuzzy bear or a pink helmet...then don't.

Just remember, if shit goes sideways it's what's IN the helmet you need to rely on to make it down with all yer parts in the right places.

Now might be a good time to be 'training' yourself with 'what if' scenarios...better to have thought about solutions when everything is there and working fine than when it's not.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[jacketsdb23 45]

If skittles went in battling a spinning malfunciton without a functioning altimeter everyone would be wondering why he jumped without an altimeter.

I don't care how many jumps you have...when shit hits the fan an altimeter is a neccessity.

Anyone suggesting he is stupid to jump without one at 100 jumps needs to take a step back and rethink that. He had a choice and made the right call. Bravo!

Good job on stopping the chain of events in its tracks. And shame on the 'experienced' jumpers who are calling this guy out.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[BenediktDE 2]

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Just remember, if shit goes sideways it's what's IN the helmet you need to rely on [...]

The Dytter?

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

[skittles_of_SDC 0]

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Just remember, if shit goes sideways it's what's IN the helmet you need to rely on [...]

The Dytter?

Thats how I interpreted it.

I almost did set my solo for landing. But I decided i'd rather live to jump another day. btw dragon i only had about 60 some jumps at the time.

[skittles_of_SDC 0]

Thanks for trying to defend me.
Btw I decided today while i was talking to keith that you, troy and I are going to start a temporary team. team busted ankle.
I know I didn't get mine skydiving but still.

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

On high H&Ps, I take my cell phone & the DZ phone #. That gives me a bit more flexibility in choosing alternate LZs. If necessary, I can look away from the DZ to find and use a safe LZ within my range while knowing I have a means to call the DZ for a ride. By having my phone I can also tell the DZ that I am OK when I don't show up immediately.

Flat turns are a wonderful thing... and they are cheap! I am pretty sure that a flat turn kept me out of the hospital when I was near the end of a series of bad choices. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3178836#3178836

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[sunshine 2]

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I almost did set my solo for landing. But I decided i'd rather live to jump another day. btw dragon i only had about 60 some jumps at the time.

Dude, it doesn't matter if you had 6000 jumps, if you weren't comfortable jumping for whatever reason, then riding the plane down was the proper thing to do. You don't have to defend your reasons to anyone.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[LloydDobbler 2]

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I almost did set my solo for landing. But I decided i'd rather live to jump another day. btw dragon i only had about 60 some jumps at the time.

Dude, it doesn't matter if you had 6000 jumps, if you weren't comfortable jumping for whatever reason, then riding the plane down was the proper thing to do. You don't have to defend your reasons to anyone.

Hear, hear!

The way I see it, the person who made the decision to ride the plane down ALWAYS makes the right decision. Like Twardo said, safety is about knowing your limitations.

Does that mean that he shouldn't think about getting to know his visual references better? Maybe. But I still say that just because you *should* be able to do something in a *worst-case scenario* doesn't mean you should automatically choose to do it on an everyday jump.

---

Back to the OP, thanks much for sharing. It's a good story to keep in mind during those 'maybe I really shouldn't be doing this' loads that we've all been a part of at some point. Glad everyone made it back.

Signatures are the new black.

[Jeth 0]

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Thanks for trying to defend me.
Btw I decided today while i was talking to keith that you, troy and I are going to start a temporary team. team busted ankle.
I know I didn't get mine skydiving but still.

LOL nice! But ya, yours doesn't count.

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[Jeth 0]

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But I still say that just because you *should* be able to do something in a *worst-case scenario* doesn't mean you should automatically choose to do it on an everyday jump.

Yes, well said. This is exactly what I was getting at.

I think the overall message here is that for WHATEVER reason, if you have a strong feeling that you should ride the plane down, then ride the plane down. I know I will next time.

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[JohnRich 4]

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I think the overall message here is that for WHATEVER reason, if you have a strong feeling that you should ride the plane down, then ride the plane down. I know I will next time.

That's a good summary of this thread.

However, I would temper it with the comment that hopefully the reasons for concern are something objective, like those described in the original story here.

But I don't let superstition rule my decisions. Just having a "bad feeling" is not enough to shut me down. I push on despite those. If you start letting emotional superstition or bad omens rule your life, then you're going to be in trouble pursuing a skydiving career.

Let facts and logic be your guide instead.

[gemini 0]

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...hopefully the reasons for concern are something objective...

Good point John.

I have backed out of loads when the mix of jumpers on the formation didn't appear safe, there were to many on the plane, or there was mass confusion prior to boarding.

But I've also seen a few jumpers who were on teams, decide on the way to altitude that it just didn't feel right and refused to get out.

All the gear was turned on and working, checked and rechecked, dive plan and break-off were solid, and each of the jumpers on the jump were well know by the one refusing to go.

Really hosed the team!

I could even understand if the jumper got back on the ground and unpacked the parachute because of something that may have been forgotten, but no repack occurred. One jumper waited a few loads, then got back on the plane with the team as if nothing had happened.

Blue skies,

Jim

[billvon 2,396]

>Just having a "bad feeling" is not enough to shut me down.

For me it is. Most of us have a level of logic that operates below the conscious, one that is far more aware. Our brains are great tools for perceiving the world around us but one of the most important functions it has is suppressing extraneous information. We'd all be overwhelmed if, every day of our lives, we walked around seeing nothing but sharp edges, moving objects, and lines (things our eyes are designed to detect and flag.) Instead our brain gets involved and says "that's a chair, just don't walk into it" "that's a seam in the concrete, ignore it, you've seen that 12,000 times" "that's dirt on your windshield" "that's just a bug" - and most of it is filtered out. The gorilla in the basketball game video is a classic example.

However, there is a level of brain function below the conscious level that will occasionally notice things we overlook. It's why some people get a "bad feeling" about things with no warning signs they can put their finger on. It might be a drop in air pressure, something that we don't notice consciously but most people can sense. It might be a type of lighting in the sky, or the way the wind blows the leaves around, that looks innocuous, but taken with the air pressure means a bad storm is coming. It might be an ache in your gut you've never had before, but is below the level at which your brain flags it as a new sensation. It might be an unconscious association between someone's behavior and someone else who, in the past, caused you harm.

We call this "intuition" and I have found it to be a valuable tool. It's not always explicable, but it is often correct. In the gorilla example, you might not notice the gorilla, but often you will get an uneasy feeling when part of your mind notes the anomaly.

I have a friend who's a Himalayan climber who wrote a great essay on the use of intuition; I'll see if I can find it.

[gemini 0]

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...However, there is a level of brain function below the conscious level that will occasionally notice things we overlook. It's why some people get a "bad feeling" about things with no warning signs they can put their finger on. It might be a drop in air pressure, something that we don't notice consciously but most people can sense. It might be a type of lighting in the sky, or the way the wind blows the leaves around, that looks innocuous, but taken with the air pressure means a bad storm is coming. It might be an ache in your gut you've never had before, but is below the level at which your brain flags it as a new sensation...

Intuition or sometimes experience...like why some jumpers get on the plane as the clouds are building up and turning dark, and other jumpers decide to wait and see what the weather does.

Blue skies,

Jim

[billvon 2,396]

>Intuition or sometimes experience . . .

Often both. I used to call late loads off when we had students on board depending on a lot of factors. Was it that the sun was almost below the horizon? Was it that the air felt bumpy and we might be getting convergence lift again? Was it that Susie's lips were turning blue again? Was it that the student was getting freaked out? Or was it something completely different?

Probably a little bit of all of that, weighed both consciously and unconsciously. The conscious part could be expressed in words; the unconscious part as only a feeling. "It's still light enough out, but this feels like a mistake." So we'd land with the plane.

[airtwardo 6]

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Just remember, if shit goes sideways it's what's IN the helmet you need to rely on [...]

The Dytter?

Thats how I interpreted it.

I almost did set my solo for landing. But I decided i'd rather live to jump another day. btw dragon i only had about 60 some jumps at the time.

What's a dytter?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[marks2065 0]

one thing that bothers me here is not that you jumped but jumped without knowing what county you were in. the pilot my have turned on the green light but he could be an idiot or doesn't know how to operate a gps. otter brats just don't know how to spot. they have windows on the planes , why not look out them ?

if you leave the plane without knowing the spot and get out in a strange place it is only your fault. also if you jump somewhere enough you should know the surrounding area. land marks at least 3-5 mile away.

i started spotting from my 2nd jump not because i wanted to but i was made to by by instructor. even if the instructor doesn't make you you should learn anyway. at no time do you leave the plane just because the light was on ! remember it is up to you to save your life and you should know what is under you leaving the plane on everyjump ! n ever trust the person near the door he may be an idiot.

[Jeth 0]

I agree with you. I already said it was my fault. However, not necessarily the part about knowing the surroundings 5 miles away. I have never gone out that far, so I wouldn't know. But I was aware I wouldn't be able to spot, so thats why I trusted the organizer to get us into a good spot. At least the right direction.

On my normal skydives, I always spot the load. I don't just trust the guy in the door. (Even if he is my teammate. ) But this was a "special" jump, and I was expecting to trust that it was organized and executed correctly. But as I mentioned, I had a feeling that it wasn't organized and executed correctly, so then I should've pulled off.

I am definitely more familiar with the surroundings 3 miles to the southeast now!

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site