You have got to be kidding!!

[LeapingGnome 0]

I was just browsing the US DZ's advertising and web sites and came across the most absurd statement I have ever seen on a web site, Quote: Static Line Skydiving

We do not recommend the static line method of Skydiving. The simple fact is the sport has evolved to provide students the ability to learn and progress safer and quicker, using the Accelerated Freefall method. Dropzones that offer or "steer" you to the static line method are doing a disservice to the new student. However it may be that they don't have the qualified instructors to provide AFF. In which case you should keep shopping for another location. End of Quote.

EVERY method has it's place in our sport. The very reason we have a decline in our members is the marketing of Tandems and attitudes like this. Yes, AFF is quicker but no, it's not any more safe than any other method. Plus for the argument, the Static Line student is more an accomplished canopy pilot and a more mature jumper by the time they reach their A license. Any method that can retain a student and possibly get them to return and become an active skydiver is a method we need.
To "steer" a student into a method that will be economical is NOT doing a disservice but rather providing a service and is just another avenue to encourage this jumper to continue jumping. I guess someone that has not been in the sport long enough to know, this is the method very many of the worlds finest skydivers used for their first jumps and they are still here. A good article about revisiting the Static Line Training method was in one of last months publications. I would recommend this reading for this Missouri DZ.

Falcon 74, Eagle 110, NFS 407, GW-2945, DW-1641, DDW-1151, "Inga... elevate me"

[jdfreefly 1]

With all due respect to your 27 years of experience and the jumps you have under your belt, I think some of your statements confuse opinion with fact.

Quote

The very reason we have a decline in our members is the marketing of Tandems and attitudes like this.

I really believe our decline in numbers has more to do with economic factors than anything else. This is my opinion, I have no facts to back it up. But I offer it as an alternative to your assertion.

Quote

Yes, AFF is quicker but no, it's not any more safe than any other method.

I believe that there is data that contradicts this. Since the inception of AFF the number of skydivers has increased while the numbers of fatalities relative to participation has decreased. Now, the devil's advocate may argue that this has more to do with changes in gear than changes in training, but again, I offer this opinion up as an alternative to your assertion.

Quote

this is the method very many of the worlds finest skydivers used for their first jumps and they are still here.

My dad, and some of the finest engineers in history learned to program computers on punch cards, and while I respect anyone who learned that way, it is little more than a novelty today.

I hope my response doesn't piss you off too much. I do have immense respect for those who went before me and made the sport what it is.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[LeapingGnome 0]

Noted. I just think we as skydivers need to pull out all the methods availible to promote our sport. There is no reason for me to get pissed off, I think if you look at the number of static line jumps versus aff jumps over the life of our sport the statistics will lean to static line progression for retention. If the economy is the reason for the decline in our members thats just all the more reason we need a more cost effective method of training and static line is the least labor entensive.
One instructor can train an entire class and the same person can put them out. A tandem will take 3 slots (if you have a cameraman) and an aff jump can take 3 slots. Yes you are making more on each jump, but as a DZO I see more return on static line loads versus my tandems and aff jumps, once the instructors, fuel, and maintaince is paid. And the s/l jumps are less expensive for the student up front. I don't want to argue the one versus the other, my point is we need them all.
BUT, I don't think that anyone should state publicly that if someone is offering static line jumps that we are doing any prospective students an injustice or anything under handed. If you think it is out dated, Great! We will just offer a more cost effective method of learning and give people an additional choice to fit their pocket book. The students will still learn to skydive just like they have for years.

Falcon 74, Eagle 110, NFS 407, GW-2945, DW-1641, DDW-1151, "Inga... elevate me"

[popsjumper 2]

I agree with you. S/L is still a valid training tool negative comments to the contrary.

I looked at MO DZ sites and didn't find any comments such as what you posted but I did see many wildly incorrect statements on the web pages.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Looks like someone is competing with a static line DZ. Too bad people can't make a living selling what they have and have to resort to talking down what someone else does. Oh well, it's election time, get use to it.

[councilman24 36]

Quote

I really believe our decline in numbers has more to do with economic factors than anything else. This is my opinion, I have no facts to back it up. But I offer it as an alternative to your assertion.

And one of those economic factors is the high cost of AFF. Static line may not be cheaper overall (but sometimes is) but it is more affordable on a weekly basis. Static line used to be the only way to make a jump, so it held the same place Tandem for decades. And while that person was fullfilling their wish to make a skydive, the learned a whole lot more about the sport than a first time Tandem.

Quote

***Yes, AFF is quicker but no, it's not any more safe than any other method.

I believe that there is data that contradicts this. Since the inception of AFF the number of skydivers has increased while the numbers of fatalities relative to participation has decreased. Now, the devil's advocate may argue that this has more to do with changes in gear than changes in training, but again, I offer this opinion up as an alternative to your assertion.

I don't in any way believe you can attribute the decrease in fatalities to a change from static line to AFF. If anything I'd believe that fatalities would be even LOWER if we were still doing static line. More jumps before turned loose, more spotting, more supervised canopy descents. But I don't have any data either.

Quote

***this is the method very many of the worlds finest skydivers used for their first jumps and they are still here.

My dad, and some of the finest engineers in history learned to program computers on punch cards, and while I respect anyone who learned that way, it is little more than a novelty today.

Wrong analogy. We used to static line with military suplus, we don't anymore. The equipment has progressed and made learning easier and modern. The same with computer equipment.

The original quoted website information is from someone who doesn't understand the varity in the sport. And it does sound like they are bad mouthing the competition.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Skydave103 0]

Why is this in the Event & Places to jump forum???

LifeshouldNOTbeajourneytothegravewithawellpreservedbody,buttskidinsideways,cigarinone hand,martiniintheother,bodythoroughlyused upandscreaming:"WOO HOO!! What a ride!!!"

[Fast 0]

At our DZ we still offer static line, kinda. We don't let anyone get to delays. You can do static line up till the point where you actually have to pull for yourself. We don't want to take the risk of sending someone out there who hasn't for sure proven they are capable of pulling. At least with AFF its a reasonable assumption (based on not using shitty instructors) that someone is gonna give there best shot of being there to pull for the person if they screw up. Can't really do that with some of the short delay static lines.

We offer Tandem, Direct AFF and SL progressions. All of them end up in the "AFF" line eventually and in the end, direct AFF is cheaper. Just how it works out for us. We do a more AFP style program though. It's basically a necessity given our proximity to other dropzones that do AFP.

I just got my static line rating and to be perfectly honest, I'm much more confident that an AFF jump is going to go well than the static line jumps. I have way more control over what an AFF student is doing.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[stratostar 5]

You totally got it right unlike some of the young ones who have not been around to see the advent of the other programs come online.

I train a hell of a lot of FJC students who go S/L and 95% of those make more then one jump, while I don't have the numbers to post, I guess 40% will earn an A.

We train a lot of college students who always talk about being broke as hell and they love S/L, for the cost of one AFF or TDM jump they can make 6 to 8 jumps depending on cost of lift and where in the program they are.

Two weeks ago I trained a class of 9 S/L students and two LV 1 AFF's were in the same non method part of class. 6 out of the nine left with second jump tickets in hand and appt's to be back in two weeks.

Last weekend one of the AFF students returned to make another jump. After thinking it over for a week she decided to go S/L method for the simple reason of cost per jump. She got a second review in the hanging harness and on AC emergencys & exits. She made 3 DRCP's and did a C&P all on Saturday, left with a real log book and had us transfer the jumps from the "sheet style" log to the new book.

In other words we now have a new skydiver progressing faster then one expensive AFF jump at a time and more likely to earn her A and keep jumping then burning out in a couple jumps because of spending a weeks worth pay on one jump.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[stratostar 5]

I have yet to see a clear and pull student burn in and I have been watching S/L op's for most of my life and throwing them out for most of my adult life, and besides that, it's not like we're still using sentinals AAD's..........

With todays AAD's no reason the baby them.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[LeapingGnome 0]

Because we started out from looking for a place to jump and found the absurd statement and then it just developed for there. But yes it doesnt belong here.

Falcon 74, Eagle 110, NFS 407, GW-2945, DW-1641, DDW-1151, "Inga... elevate me"

[LeapingGnome 0]

***I looked at MO DZ sites and didn't find any comments such as what you posted but I did see many wildly incorrect statements on the web pages.

Quote

Rolla, under training link.

Falcon 74, Eagle 110, NFS 407, GW-2945, DW-1641, DDW-1151, "Inga... elevate me"

• Quote

[Gato 0]

Quote

I agree with you. S/L is still a valid training tool negative comments to the contrary.

I looked at MO DZ sites and didn't find any comments such as what you posted but I did see many wildly incorrect statements on the web pages.

I'm about to get my license, and I came through the SL course at MRVS. I am soooooo glad I chose to stick with it and get through. There are so many little milestones, and the sense of accomplishment I've gotten has made it all worth it.

No one really ever says it, but I think the SL method might be a little more difficult than others, and what one has to go through in order to join the ranks of actual skydivers might just make for a more heads-up flier. I'm not bashing other methods, here - it's a known fact that you appreciate things a bit more when you have to work a little harder for them.

Also, the fact that you are ALWAYS jumping solo, with no one attached to you or hanging on, puts responsibility for your well-being squarely on your shoulders - it's up to me to make sure my skydive goes well. No one else.

Just a noob spouting off, but I'm not afraid to get out low.

T.I.N.S.

[LeapingGnome 0]

Sound like your heads up! Stay with it, wonderful things are to come and never loose that feeling that something new gives you.

Falcon 74, Eagle 110, NFS 407, GW-2945, DW-1641, DDW-1151, "Inga... elevate me"

[Unstable 8]

Quote

You totally got it right unlike some of the young ones who have not been around to see the advent of the other programs come online.

I train a hell of a lot of FJC students who go S/L and 95% of those make more then one jump, while I don't have the numbers to post, I guess 40% will earn an A.

We train a lot of college students who always talk about being broke as hell and they love S/L, for the cost of one AFF or TDM jump they can make 6 to 8 jumps depending on cost of lift and where in the program they are.

Two weeks ago I trained a class of 9 S/L students and two LV 1 AFF's were in the same non method part of class. 6 out of the nine left with second jump tickets in hand and appt's to be back in two weeks.

Last weekend one of the AFF students returned to make another jump. After thinking it over for a week she decided to go S/L method for the simple reason of cost per jump. She got a second review in the hanging harness and on AC emergencys & exits. She made 3 DRCP's and did a C&P all on Saturday, left with a real log book and had us transfer the jumps from the "sheet style" log to the new book.

I agree with you 100%. I'm an instructor at a SL DZ and I think that people need to realize a few things. I don't give a rats ass what the other DZO's say, the fact of the matter is SL is a time-tested, proven, and effective way to train students. I work at a College Dropzone - if we funneled most of our students through AFF, not as many would be able to afford it.

AFF has it's place, but so does SL.

=========Shaun ==========

[Gato 0]

A few of my favorite days:

The day I married my wife.

The day I played guitar in front of 22,000 people.

The day of my first Clear & Pull, when John Bailey wrote this in my logbook: "You are now a real skydiver - Congrats!"

T.I.N.S.

[upndownshop 0]

Quote

I agree with you. S/L is still a valid training tool negative comments to the contrary.

I looked at MO DZ sites and didn't find any comments such as what you posted but I did see many wildly incorrect statements on the web pages.

http://www.skydiverolla.com/index-old2.html
scroll down

It is a shame they have made a statement like that, its the SL and small DZ's that are the heartbeat in skydiving. IMO collectively they produce more "skydivers" every year than several of our major tandem factories. Missouri/Kansas has always battled among themselves, wish they would realize they are only hurting each other and the sport as a whole. Texas used to be like that as well. Shame too, looks like they have a nice facility.

[MarkM 0]

The thing I liked most about my SL jumps is that I worried about failing less. Fail an AFF jump and you're out a good chunk of change. Fail a SL jump and you're out a lot less money. I went from one system to the other and overall I felt a lot less pressure on my SL jumps. I was doing a lot less during each jump and if I blew it, well, I'd just done another skydive and it didn't set me back much money.

If I hadn't started on SL I doubt I would've gotten into the sport. But it was sort of a no brainer to jump again because I had already paid for the expensive jump(the FJC jump) and my other jumps just weren't that expensive. It made it easy to go back out the the DZ again and again and get addicted to the culture.

[ryan_d_sucks 0]

Quote

I train a hell of a lot of FJC students who go S/L and 95% of those make more then one jump, while I don't have the numbers to post, I guess 40% will earn an A.

We train a lot of college students who always talk about being broke as hell and they love S/L, for the cost of one AFF or TDM jump they can make 6 to 8 jumps depending on cost of lift and where in the program they are.

That's absolutely true. There's no way, as a broke college student, that I would have made my 100th skydive today if the dope rope had not been an option.

[DescensionX 0]

As someone that went through both the static line progression and the AFF progression, I am glad I did the static line jumps.

One of the coolest things I've ever done was climb out and hang from the wing strut on a cessna, and let go.

Plus, when i did AFF, I was already comfortable under canopy, so that removed one layer of stress, and I could focus on the freefall part.

I'm glad I got to do it.