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finch

1st time in a cloud

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My first time in clouds......
I have about 37 jumps. I'm down in Chile skiing for the summer. I have my first rig that I just purchased from my DZO in Colorado. I lad in Santiago and call up the local Skydiving Guru. He invites me over... fondles my gear and logbook, and tells me to show up the following day to catch a ride to go make some jumps.
I show up the next morning, and find out that due to weather, we are not sure where we are jumping. The locals have a mobile DZ . They just fly the plane to whatever part of the country has the best weather. We head out to grape country. A beautiful valley with monster jagged mountains on both sides.
We arrive and the Cesna is sitting waiting for us. The clouds are solid. Like Seattle solid. At 1-2000 ft its like soup. We hang out for about an hour. Finally I get told that we are headed up. With an air of confidence, I am told the weather is breaking.... by the time we reach altitude, it'll be crystal :) !!!
I bored the plane..... the first thing I notice is the the interior walls are missing. I can see all of the cables/plumbing that I never knew existed. Franken-plane.....I ask about the pilot, and get told... oh this guys new...... we get volunteers that only hang out for a few weeks at a time. I'm thinking..... it's all good if I can just make it to a grand....
After we all squish in . The pilot tries to turn over the engine. Woooga wooga woooooogaaaa. Dead battery....... one of the other jumpers swears , jumps out of the plane, runs to his VW, pulls it up to the door , pulls out jumper cables and jump starts the plane.
I'm really starting to get a little nervous now. We taxi down to the runway..... and I realize.... this muddy rutted out mine field ahead of us is our runway...... off we go .
As we climb up to 1000 ft we hit soup. The plane is so full of cloud you can't even see the wingtips. We fly fly fly fly forever. We finally come out at about 8,500 ft. The view is incredible. Andes Mountains on both sides with an ocean of clouds below. I'm a little freaked out. I've never seen clouds like this. At 10,000 ft the more experienced guy starts giving heading corrections..... a little to the left..... a little to the right......... I ask him..... is there a GPS on this heap ???? He looks me square in the eye and says..... when the prop is lined up with that mountain over there, and the wing is lined up with that one over there.... we are over the DZ.
He gives a 10 second call and jumps out with everyone else. I am left alone ... I'm terrified.... I decide thats it... I'm riding my first plane down.
The pilot looks at me and smiles . For the first time I realize that this guy is missing most of his teeth . I look around at Franken-plane, and re-evaluate my situation. I immediatley exit the aircraft.
As I approach the cloud I fly into my own corona/shadow. It's such an incredibly out of body experience. I watch my alti. 8,000 ....7,000...6,000...5,0000........... and then it hits me.... could this be a bad spot?? I saw Alive. Crashing into a mountain in freefall is not a good idea.... I deploy at 4500.
After I deploy I look up to make sure my canopy is big and square. Of course... my lines dissapear into cloud. I'm so freaked out, all I can do is un-stow my brakes and watch my alti.
I finally come out at about 2000 ft. I am facing the wrong way, and have bee flying away from the DZ the entire time. I land in cow pasture, and am chased off by some angry cows. I actually tear my canopy jumping a fence to get away from the cows.
The moral of this story..... a light spiral would have allowed me to stay over my designated LZ. Out landings are out landings...I've made my share. As an experienced Demo and BASE jumper.... I have a fair amount of faith in my ability to land a parachute in a harsh/unfamilliar/hostile environment. Out landings should be treated with respect. They have the potential to throw some nasty curve-balls at you. I have more than once gone out to pick up fellow skydivers , and found seriously injured friends.
Just my .02 ....
Jay Epstein Ramirez
www.adrenalineexploits.com

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If you can spot the sun,, then you really aren't in clouds,,,,, aren't you???

and saying that no USPA member has ever opened or skydived thru cloud are just about same as saying that there are no global warming and we have fantastic economy, and our 17 year old sons and daughters are not touching drugs and not having sex...



whats wrong with having sex at that age? :S
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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Did you think about maybe freefalling a little longer to get through the other side of the cloud where you can see what's going on? If you do this, just remember that regardless of what happens, you will always pull at or above the hard deck, so make sure you're watching your altitude first, and the cloud second.



Am I the only one who has a problem with this?:S

What about the two-way which exited in front of you?
Plan the dive, and all that...


If you have a problem with this 2-way in front of you if you open lower, you will have the same problem if you open at the normal altitude. Think about horizontal separation.

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1) If it's thick, don't just fly off in one direction for ten minutes. Start a _slow_ spiral so you won't move too far from your opening point (which presumably was a decent spot for setting up a landing.)



Whatever you do- DO NOT make turns or spirals to get out of a cloud.

Technically, I don't know anything about opening in clouds.

But I heard this great advice, just recently, at a big-way I helped organize:
If you open in a cloud - fly towards the sun. Make a turn to get headed towards the sun, but after that don't turn until you are out of them.
If everyone does this they all have pretty much parallel trajectories until they pop out under the clouds.
After you are out of a cloud, then you can clear your airspace and make turns when traffic permits it.
Don't look for this to ever be in the SIM either because no USPA member has ever opened in a cloud and therefore never needs this advice.

Most often cloud layers around opening altitudes are only 1000-2000 feet thick.

.



Very strange answer, never heard it before. You're profile says you're also from Belgium. This is certainly NOT the standard practice in Belgium. Usually everyone slowly spirals downwards, that way everyone stays in their own vertical plane. You're logic is fundamentally flawed because if you're realy in thick clouds you can't even see the sun...then what?

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Whatever you do- DO NOT make turns or spirals to get out of a cloud.

During ground school, I was told that in the event a cloud opening happens unexpectedly, I'm supposed to pull down the toggle an inch or two or so, for a super-slow spiral (one that probably takes a minute to complete a 360 under a big boat), so I don't accidentally go far away from the DZ in one direction... At least this seemed to qualify during student jumps where I had the whole sky to myself at the time.

Maybe this is incorrect training, but it seemed to be a safe kind of spiral...?

Obviously, I may do this differently if a skydiving formation happens to track and open unexpectedly in a cloud one way or another (i.e. a country with no cloud jump rules, or we got blown over one instead of a hole) and just fly straight, especially if I know I have been consistently tracking in one direction, my opening felt on-heading, and know there's tons of outs for many miles in every direction...I'd hate to spiral right back into canopy traffic! And if a bigway event tells everyone to head-to-the-sun, I'll follow that advice for that event... (seems reasonable if a few outers track into an isolated cloud in the periphery, you'd be able to tell which way the brightest side of the cloud is, where the sun would be -- the bigway wouldn't be jumping if the sky was significantly cloudy anyway)

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Very strange answer, never heard it before.

I think it's a bigway-specific instruction, where the sky is mostly clear but a few puffs of clouds, and a portion of the people happen to track into the isolated cloud. For these isolated clouds, it's easy to tell which way the sun is.

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Wow!
I can't believe some of the replies on here.

We run into each other on perfect blue sky days.
I think if someone suggested that everyone on the load does a slow sprial from opening to say 1000 feet, they would get their head ripped off here. In fact, there was a NG that recently said he did spiral in the 'playground' area until 1000 ft. He got ripped.

Now add in clouds the idea of a full otter load of jumpers all doing a slow spiral has all sorts of potential collisions.

If you fly straight in one direction at the slowest speed possible, then you descend in the smallest volume of airspace possible.
Fly straight and fly at full brakes, just before the stall point if you are in a cloud.
To coordinate everyone's heading, everyone should pick a heading towards the sun.
Most of the time, you'll be able to determine which way that is.
If you can't tell which way the sun is, then hold your heading, fly at deep brakes until you come out of the bottom of the clouds.
(Sorry - I forgot the deep brakes part in the other post.)

I do not recommend pulling at the base of the clouds. That might end up being rather low and put you in a two out situation.

Of course, you can avoid jumping in clouds by not getting on a plane when the weather is marginal.

In 1996 in Anapa, Russia, two practice ~100-ways broke off at the top of the clouds. Not only did we have to fly our canopies through clouds, we also had to track through the clouds. Most people tracked as normal for their position in the waves, pulled and then flew straight and slow until coming out of the clouds. I can guarantee (and probably mathematically prove it) that if everyone was doing a slow spiral there would have been numerous collisions.

Bottom line is that you need to fly straight and slow within a cloud. If everyone heads towards the sun, all the better.

.
.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

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>What are procedures upon entering cloud regarding pulling? Pull
>immediatly? Pull after you're clear of cloud?

Plan the dive, dive the plan. The rest of the load is assuming you will break off, track, open etc approximately where you said you would. The worst cloud I've ever been in had a visibility distance of around 50 feet, which is enough to be able to see the base (in most cases) turn 180 and track. As always, track straight and far to maximize your distance, and open at your planned altitude.

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What do you do if you are jumping between 11am and 1pm? Which way is the sun then?



Depends on your latitude and time of year.
In SoCal in the winter it would be towards the south.

If you are really asking, what if the sun is directly overhead?
Then your best bet would to maintain the heading you opened on and fly slow and straight.

Maybe a picture will help?
In the attached picture the colored circles represent the volume of airspace you would need for a slow, spiral descent.
The black areas represent the volume of airspace if everyone maintained their heading and descended in slow flight.

The places were the colored circles overlap represent potential collisions.
The places were the black areas overlap represent potential collisions.
As you can see the black areas do not overlap, but the colored circles do.

.
.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

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I'm fine with the advice to fly slow and straight. I don't necessarily agree with your picture, especially if you have off heading openings, or if peope turn to "fly toward the sun" as you suggest. Try that one and now you'll find some overlapping black lines.

My perception of which way the sun is will probably differ from yours depending on where I am in the cloud, how dense the cloud is, or other factors.

If you want to subscribe to the straight and slow advice, I think you would be better served by saying fly straight and in deep brakes in a straight line in whatever direction you end up after opening. That way you have a good chance of people flying generally away from the center of the formation.

Just my two cents. At my dropzone we are more anal about jumping into clouds than others. We try to focus on avoiding the clouds in the first place. IMHO the OP should have never been put in the position of having to deal with this with such low jump numbers.

- Dan G

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Apparently your guys didnt track after break off, they are making very big spirals and they have 4 suns? One sun for every jumper?

Check my picture. If I can attach it.
Black X is the breakoff point, black dot is the opening point after tracking, colored circle is the area needed to spiral safely and the red square is the landing zone. They have 2 options:

1. Do slow spirals to go down staying in the same vertical area. Looks safe.

2. Follow the arrows towards the sun, flying around blind and diminishing the horizontal separation. No thanks.
HISPA #93
DS #419.5


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Apparently your guys didnt track after break off, they are making very big spirals and they have 4 suns? One sun for every jumper?

Check my picture. If I can attach it.
Black X is the breakoff point, black dot is the opening point after tracking, colored circle is the area needed to spiral safely and the red square is the landing zone. They have 2 options:

1. Do slow spirals to go down staying in the same vertical area. Looks safe.

2. Follow the arrows towards the sun, flying around blind and diminishing the horizontal separation. No thanks.



Your diagram is not based in reality.
The distance between two points (ie the jumpers) is very, very small compared to the distance to the sun.
The angle subtended by heading into the sun on earth is pretty close to zero.
That means parallel trajectories, from a practical sense.

If you want the math:
let C = distance between the two jumpers (use a very BIG number as 1 mile)
R = distance to sun (use an average distance of about 93 x 10^6 miles)
Then the angle subtended is
theta = 2 sin ^-1(C/2R) = 2 sin^-1 (1/186*10^6) = 6.160836506783046e-7 degrees.

Your picture is incorrect.

Oh yeah, and the picture I made was for people that maintained their heading and did not turn towards the sun.

.
.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

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Personally, I just can't accept a single answer as a solution. There are going to always be different details about that specific dive that you will have to take into consideration.

As far as the discussion about whether you should open above a cloud, below it, etc. My thought on this is that the majority of the time I'm going to wait till I get to pull altitude. Whether or not someone says I should pull above/below a cloud just isn't going to be a factor in my mind whatsoever most likely. I'm going to pull at the altitude I planned to pull at and this is especially true if there are other jumpers above me. The last thing I'm going to do is pull at 9000 feet rather than the planned 4000 feet when tandems and possibly students or other types of jumpers are going to be falling through my vertical airspace.

If you have to fall through a cloud... do it. You're not changing the dive by doing it are you? I've done it before and KNOWN with certainty that there was a 4 way not too far out (maybe seperated by 1000 feet) because I saw them before I entered the cloud. There is no way I was going to pull inside that cloud.

I can understand the "fly towards the sun" option. As this is probably because if you can see the sun, that may be your closest ride to the edge of the cloud (and out). But I'm not sure this is always the best option, but I agree it definitely can be an option.

You just have to use your head in these situations. There's no real single answer to anything.

I do NOT condone whatsoever, pulling above or below a cloud though, higher than you originally planned unless you were the last one out, maybe. You won't only be potentially killing yourself, you might killed the tandem instructor and his student or injure a 3 way student AFF dive.

I don't exactly have 5000 jumps, but some of this stuff just seems like common sense, ya know?
Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

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Tough one...

When I do a solo, the virtually-non-accelerated-altitude-loss slow spiral (Approximately 50 times slower than fast spiral - which may be a super-slight harness turn when flying sensitive canopies) feels safer than flying straight into somebody else's airspace of the previous or next group especially when I don't know my heading. The super slow spiral was what I've been taught to do for solo jumps, as dozens of other dropzones seem to teach this. Perhaps I should change this practice, but this is a solo jump. About 5-10% of my jumps are still solos, often a tracking practice jump.

That said, I do fly straight outwards in a cloud if I was doing a group jump (RW, etc). That's the way I've always done it when I happened to be tracking or opening in a cloud.

(Yes, don't jump, but there times the jump proceeds when the sky's partially cloudy and we can see the dropzone but that my track or open accidentally happens to be in one... Murphy happens and not all countries have the same cloud rules that U.S. does.)

I'll follow the plan though -- if the organizer says fly towards the sun, that's the advice I follow. :)
This is how I have tended to do things if I find myself in that occasional unexpected event:
- Follow the organizer/dropzone mandated plan;
- If none exists:
--- Group/RW: fly straight outwards away from base.
--- Solo: Slow right-hand non-accelerated-altitude-loss spiral in solo jumps to avoid previous/next group's airspace.

If this is flawed I'd love to know from everyone who has some experiences with safety issues of any of the above :)

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(Sorry - I forgot the deep brakes part in the other post.)



That does make a big difference. The way you originally described it gave me the impression of a bunch of canopies all in full flight heading towards what they thought was the sun. Full brakes does make the suggestion sound a lot more sane - at least to me.

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Your diagram is not based in reality.
The distance between two points (ie the jumpers) is very, very small compared to the distance to the sun.
The angle subtended by heading into the sun on earth is pretty close to zero.
That means parallel trajectories, from a practical sense.



You are right, as long as what the jumpers believe is the sun actually is the sun. If it's just a bright spot caused by a relatively thin part of an otherwise thick cloud, well... I will concede however, that if you find yourself in such a thick cloud, another question worth asking is what you're doing there in the first place.

I see your point about the slow right-hand spirals causing potential collisions. Everyone seems to have a different idea of what is an appropriate type of spiral, and I get the impression that some people's ideas would have them flying a very large circle over the ground, potentially large enough that two adjacent such circles could intersect.

At the very least, you've given me something to think about. I can see pros and cons with both approaches, but for the moment, I think the best approach is to follow local rules. If the local rule says full brakes and try to head towards the sun, I'll give it a go. I don't think it's as fool proof as you've suggested, but if that's what everyone else is doing, I think I'll be better off doing the same than doing slow spirals. On the other hand, if the local rules say slow right-hand spiral, again, I think I'll be better off doing the same as everyone else in the air and slow-spiralling down.

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Am I the only one who has a problem with this?[Crazy]



You're driving down the highway in thick fog at 120mph. You slam on the brakes and do an emergency stop. As long as there's nobody behind you, that should be perfectly safe.

There's a reason that we clear the airspace above and below outselves at deployment time.

I can't comment on anyone else, but at at least one dropzone I've jumped at has a rule that you are required to follow which states that you will not open inside a cloud unless you are at the hard deck. If you go there, you'll be required to read and sign the cloud jumping rules, too, and they were developed by people with a lot more experience jumping through clouds, and jumping in general than either you or me, so I'll defer to their judgement.

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What about the two-way which exited in front of you?
Plan the dive, and all that...



For a start, they shouldn't be deploying inside the cloud for exactly the same reason that you shouldn't.

Secondly, if they're exiting right before you, you likely have the same or similar deployment altitudes in your plans. They may have a more or less snivelly canopy than you do. You might have a malfunction and have to cut away. The same points may apply to the group behind you as well. If you're so unsure about your horizontal separation and whether the airspace is clear, are you sure you want to be opening somewhere where you can't visually clear the airspace?

Thirdly, it is horizontal separation that we rely on to avoid people colliding at or near deployment time. If you have difficulty with judging your exit separation and planning your jumps to maintain adequate horizontal separation, I suggest you speak with some of the folks at your dropzone as to what you might be doing wrong.

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You're in a cloud, you can't see a thing - are you sure your horizontal separation was OK?



See, you do understand after all. You don't know that the group behind you aren't trying to kill you, which is why both you and the groups before and after you are going to wait until the hard deck or some clear air before they deploy.

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:)
KISS - stick to the plan.

But like someone else said, find out what the local rules are wherever you're jumping and stick to that.
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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Noob: I don't jump unless the cloud base is above my pull altitude irrespective of how much cloud there is. We aim for gaps too but I don't want (as someone mentioned) to have to track away into a cloud.



You're right, you shouldn't jump if clouds are that low. If clouds are that low, the drop zone probably won't even allow jumps. But personally, like I said earlier, I'd just pay attention to what altitude the clouds are at when you're on the ride up. I'm not a meteorologist, but the first series of clouds are usually always at almost the exact same altitude. Their may be a patch at 7000 ft, and another patch a mile away at 7100 ft. I could be wrong here, but it seems like that's how clouds work somehow. Then the next level of cloud formations may be at 15,000 (just for example) if there is anymore. Usually when you see that I think that's when you see those gigantic bubbles of clouds in the sky. So you can usually be certain that if you're on the ride up and you see a small cloud not much bigger than the plane, the rest of the clouds are going to be pretty close to that altitude. So that's where you can mark that information down in your mind.

Then again I could be way off, but that's what I've always seen.
Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

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I threw my pilot chute at 4,500.That was my plan and thats what I told everyone before we got on the plane.I did think about going alittle lower but decided against it.By the way it was "enviromental haze" not a cloud.;)Thanx for everyones respons.

"Never go full retard"

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