AFF1 Crash Landing

[Chubba 0]

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Nothing will kill you faster than false confidence. Maybe someone with 25 jumps should'nt be giving advice to students.



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John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

I wasn't giving him advice, it's not my place.

Just as it's not yours, he's not your student, he should be talking to his instructors.

The only advice I gave him was talking to his instructors, 25 jumps or not it's the right thing to do, now you got a bloke talking to a bunch of strangers on the net filling his head with contradicting ideas.

Go talk to your instructors.

This thread has reiterated that indeed I'm not allowed to comment on anything bar the occasional bonfire thread till I got 1000's of jumps I'm out.

[peregrinerose 0]

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I can only remember failing 2 - LVL 1 students and one of them I paid for his repeat as I couldn't match fall rate and was like a streamer above him until I couldn't take it anymore and pulled him out.

AFF LVL 1 is nothing more than a 'high performance' tandem ---- thats a quote from an old military freefall instructor and my first DZO I worked at.

At the time being a new instructor I thought he was crazy --- now I love the saying and really thats what it is -- how can you expect someone in freefall for the first time to do everything right

As said LVL 2 no free rides and no pull assist --- if you don't do it right we don't move on to the release dive

Wow, I hate that phrase above. Really glosses over the fact that the student is responsible for their own skydive and sends a really unsafe message to them. I have only failed one level 1 student.... fetal the majority of the skydive, no practice touches, tried to pull at the right alti, but wasn't even close to the hackey and wouldn't let me guide his hand, I pulled for him. He beat himself up a lot, but came back a couple of weeks later for a stellar level 1. He was really proud of himself (rightfully so) and understood completely why he needed to repeat the level.

All I expect a student to do on a level 1 is maintain alti awareness and pull at the appropriate altitude (with or without help guiding the hand). Nothing else. If they can't handle those two very important skills, they need to repeat the level until the skill is mastered. Do you really consider that 'everything right'?

There are no free rides with me. Ever. I may not be the most experienced AFF instructor out there, and I still have a whole lot to learn, but I won't compromise my students' learning process with a 'free ride'.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[wrightskyguy 1]

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This thread has reiterated that indeed I'm not allowed to comment on anything bar the occasional bonfire thread till I got 1000's of jumps I'm out.


*** I think 500 is a better number.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

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[NickDG 23]

>>This thread has reiterated that indeed I'm not allowed to comment on anything bar the occasional bonfire thread till I got 1000's of jumps I'm out.
Don't go Chubba . . .

Look at me I've been around longer than most and have 1000s of jumps and still I hear my posts "are stupid," I'm, "behind the times," and my personal favorite, "Why don't you just get cancer and die already!"

If I can take it so can you. Besides we both know it's not us, it's them . . .

NickD

[Reginald 0]

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how can you expect someone in freefall for the first time to do everything right

I don't expect them to do everything right, just the learning objective - deploying their own parachute by their assigned pull altitude.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[kelpdiver 2]

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About the radio, radios do fail, but they don't fail often. I've had a LOT of students insist that the radio failed even though it was tested prior to boarding the plane and the student heard fine then, it was turned on in the plane, and I could hear myself through the student radio after the student landed.... sensory overload can cause you to not hear even a perfectly functional radio (not saying this is the case, but very possibly an option).

Is it that the deafness is real? Divers take a while to learn to clear, and a skydive is essentially the same as diving down to about 20ft. If they don't clear well, the ears may be torqued for a little bit...the time to get down.

What I remember from that jump was that the first word spoken was always staticy - and the first word was either Jason or Eric (my friend on his AFF1) - and they didn't repeat the name at the end of the instruction. So on final, I didn't even try to listen and flared on my own. Worked ok, but predictably still a couple feet high.

[peregrinerose 0]

Good point... that's also a possibility

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[bjjman 0]

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What I remember from that jump was that the first word spoken was always staticy - and the first word was either Jason or Eric (my friend on his AFF1) - and they didn't repeat the name at the end of the instruction. So on final, I didn't even try to listen and flared on my own. Worked ok, but predictably still a couple feet high.

On my AFF 2 I could only hear my radio depending on my head position. Before the jump I told the guy I couldn't hear it real well and he blew me off. On the way down I could hear as long as I looked in one direction, but I chose to look where I was going. I couldn't hear much, but luckily I did hear "look at the horizon." It was the one thing I needed to hear.

On another note, I would have zero respect for an instructor that passed me on my AFF I w/o me pulling. As it is, I have been very critical of my AFF I jump, and after recently seeing what the instructor wrote in my log, I couldn't believe it was "good this, good that, etc." He was more critical in person, not sure why it didn't come across in the log book. Maybe his oral advice was trivial, and maybe I was flipping out in my head more than I let on, but:

Note to Instructors: a few extra seconds spent giving some advice in the logbook is much appreciated to a new student. I suspect many instructors just slap "good, good, good" on most students' books in the interest of time.

edit to add:

On further thought: On my AFF 2 I had trouble touching the PC handle on my practice pulls. I got to it, but not without some help (I thought the help came a little prematurely, but my instructor obviously figured I needed it). Because he was so quick to help, I feared I would fail. I actually gave him a thumbs-up trying to tell him "I'm okay, I've got it." I was happy to learn I didn't fail, but at the same time it sucks he jumped in to help so soon rather than allowing me more time to find it in order to build confidence. And yes, there was plenty of time - I continued on with the remaining PPs and forward movement.

My point is that from what I read here, some of you instructors let students off way too easy. I was concerned about a little help on a PP, but you allow a no-pull!

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Albert Einstein

[danielcroft 2]

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taught for the student jumps, or forever?

For student jumps. Just like losing your instructor on a level is a signal to pull. I had my alti come undone on jump 10 (had a coach with me but her alti had broken on the way up). Fortunately, I could still see the altitude so didn't pull ridiculously high (came undone at ~10k). Ended up tracking & pulling maybe 1k higher because I got nervous. Point being (at least for me) that when I haven't developed the sight picture of what the ground looks like at my pull altitude it's pretty dangerous for me to keep free falling with no altimeter. It's also very dangerous to pull high as you mentioned so as I gain experience I can make that decision to track way off the line & then pull at a higher altitude than normal but as a student I couldn't.

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Where I jump we teach: CIA

Comfotable
In control
Aware

Anytime your skydive strays outside any of these parameters, it's pull time.

That's what I was taught at my FJC. I'd been uncomfortable several times during my student progression, once was the having the alti come undone, once was having my laterals come undone. Both times I pulled high(er) because I was really uncomfortable. As a student & a low timer, I really have to rely on people giving me good separation and being at least a little accommodating of the potential for me to become uncomfortable. This is all within reason of course.

[RMK 3]

you said...."radio didn't work so I was on my own the whole ride down". That's how all your future skydives will be after student level.

I view the radios as an uneeded crutch. Pretend it's not there and think about what YOU would do. I did AFF in 2002 in South Africa where there were no radios and you only got assistance on your very first jump (via some guy holding ping pong paddles to tell you what toggle to pull on finals). After that you were on your own.

Crude yes, but it made me pay particular attention to the landing sequence training as I knew it was all up to me.

have fun learning

"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

[skybytch 259]

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I suspect many instructors just slap "good, good, good" on most students' books in the interest of time.

Your assumption is incorrect. A good instructor will accentuate the positive in the debrief and the logbook. As long as nobody was injured or died, there's gotta be something the student did right. Knowing s/he did something right makes it more likely that s/he will come back again to have a chance to nail the things they didn't do right.

[peregrinerose 0]

Agreed... I go through every part of the skydive and right 'good' before everything that was done reasonably well. Before the things that needed help, I'll find a way to say what I need to without bashing the student (my personal favorite is 'instructor assisted exit, for those students that count but then don't actually exit

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Nightingale 0]

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I'm not a hard ass, but I couldn't give a student a "pass" on a jump where I had to pull for him. Good luck with your future jumps.

I got a pass on AFF 1. My instructor pulled for me, but I was trying to pull for myself. I kept grabbing her altimeter instead, because it was in the way. I'd be curious to know what the student's instructor had to say about why he pulled for the student. Altitude? or another issue?

[Hunt_Joshua_G 0]

my instructor didn't tell me anything about the jump other than I missed the pull now signal.

"When the people look like ants-PULL,
When the ants look like people-PRAY."
"Only skydivers know why the birds sing."

[wrightskyguy 1]

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my instructor didn't tell me anything about the jump other than I missed the pull now signal.

*** I sincerely hope that isn't true.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

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[Hunt_Joshua_G 0]

Sorry to say its true. I asked him some questions but really didn't get much for answers. Then he told me to come back for my Lvl 2. I'm hoping to go back this sunday for my AFF lvl jump.

"When the people look like ants-PULL,
When the ants look like people-PRAY."
"Only skydivers know why the birds sing."

[Nightingale 0]

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Sorry to say its true. I asked him some questions but really didn't get much for answers. Then he told me to come back for my Lvl 2. I'm hoping to go back this sunday for my AFF lvl jump.

There's nothing wrong with requesting another instructor for your next jump, if you want to. Getting experience jumping with different instructors and getting different feedback can help you learn. As the student, you're the customer, and it's okay to ask for little things that will help you learn. I requested certain instructors on each of my student jumps, for various reasons:

AFF 1-2: Shelly, because she taught my FJC and I was comfortable with her.
AFF 3: Raoul, my reserve side from AFF 2. I rode the plane down on my first try at AFF 2 (see my website www.nightingalesnest.net for the story there), and he spent a lot of time helping me figure out why and going over everything with me so it wouldn't happen again.
AFF 4: Raoul, because I knew him already and he gave good feedback on my level 3 jump
AFF 5: Shelly
AFF 6: Kai, a very experienced instructor, and my reserve side for AFF 1
AFF 7: John, who was my TM for my two tandems
AFF 8: Shelly, with Raoul on video. I picked Shelly because she'd taught my FJC and it was a full-circle kind of thing.

The dropzone (Perris) had no issue at all with me requesting someone specific to jump with, although I'm sure it may have messed with their scheduling. It made me more comfortable as a student and it made my learning process easier because I was comfortable with my instructors at every step.

[wrightskyguy 1]

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Sorry to say its true. I asked him some questions but really didn't get much for answers. Then he told me to come back for my Lvl 2. I'm hoping to go back this sunday for my AFF lvl jump.

*** I'm assuming you had 2 instructors on this jump. What did the 2nd instructor do?

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

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[kelpdiver 2]

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taught for the student jumps, or forever?

For student jumps. Just like losing your instructor on a level is a signal to pull.

That's only the procedure if so instructed before the level. Losing one of two instructors is certainly not a reason to pull, and on the later levels the proc may be to hold tight for at least a few seconds if there is separation on exit.

[bjjman 0]

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I suspect many instructors just slap "good, good, good" on most students' books in the interest of time.

Your assumption is incorrect. A good instructor will accentuate the positive in the debrief and the logbook. As long as nobody was injured or died, there's gotta be something the student did right. Knowing s/he did something right makes it more likely that s/he will come back again to have a chance to nail the things they didn't do right.

I couldn't disagree more. A good coach of anything should not tell you how great you are if you suck. They should matter-of-factly tell you what you did well and leave it at that, then spend most effort on what you did wrong and how to improve it.

That being said, I do realize the need for returning customers. It's ironic, and sad, that people won't return if you help them and vice-versa. That's bass-ackwards to me.

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Albert Einstein

[peregrinerose 0]

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I couldn't disagree more. A good coach of anything should not tell you how great you are if you suck. They should matter-of-factly tell you what you did well and leave it at that, then spend most effort on what you did wrong and how to improve it.

That being said, I do realize the need for returning customers. It's ironic, and sad, that people won't return if you help them and vice-versa. That's bass-ackwards to me.

Do you have any background in education at all? The 'good' comments coupled with points to work on for the next jump are basic educational techniques, not unique to skydiving. Learning, particularly skydiving, is very psychological in nature. Students who go up learning from their mistakes rather than beating themselves up for the mistakes perform better on their next skydive... they are more relaxed and that is SO important to body position and success of the skydive.

None of us are advocating telling a student they are great whether they are or not... all of us are saying that we point out all of the things that were done well (and almost all students have some facet of the skydive that went well) so they have something to focus on and be proud of. We also tell them the things that need to be worked on... better arch, better altitude awareness, etc and often I'll give exercises to practice at home before the next jump.

It's not about getting students to return... they will or they won't. I want to be on a SAFE skydive with my students, not have the holy shit scared out of me in freefall, and if helping my students relax, focus on the good, fix the bad, and not get too hard on themselves keeps us both safer in the sky and promotes learning, how is that a bad thing?

If you don't like the system, go get an AFF rating and do your own thing. Lotsa luck with that. You'll learn very quickly that your philosophy is not conducive to a learning environment.

Here's an example for you... I have a student who's spin problem is completely in her head.... as soon as she's nervous, she spins. How do I know it's nerves? I accentally let go of her too soon a couple of jumps ago, before she did her practice touches. I didn't re dock as she was stable and didn't need me. She was flawless until that moment she realized she was let go... that's when she started turning and had a hell of a time stopping the turn... it's all on video too. Mindset truly does matter.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Hunt_Joshua_G 0]

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Sorry to say its true. I asked him some questions but really didn't get much for answers. Then he told me to come back for my Lvl 2. I'm hoping to go back this sunday for my AFF lvl jump.

*** I'm assuming you had 2 instructors on this jump. What did the 2nd instructor do?

My end instructor was the one who was trying to get me on the radio. After I found the ground he was the one to come and make sure I was ok and that all my parts still worked. He helped me with my chute then walked me to the packing area then was gone. Didn't see him again.
Thinking about it now I don't remember much of what he said. At that momant everything was still hurting.

"When the people look like ants-PULL,
When the ants look like people-PRAY."
"Only skydivers know why the birds sing."

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[wrightskyguy 1]

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My end instructor was the one who was trying to get me on the radio. After I found the ground he was the one to come and make sure I was ok and that all my parts still worked. He helped me with my chute then walked me to the packing area then was gone. Didn't see him again.
Thinking about it now I don't remember much of what he said. At that momant everything was still hurting.

*** If everything you've said is true, you got ripped off on this dive and I would advise you to never jump with either of these 2 "instructors" again. I would also advise you to bring this up to the DZO. If you've been embelishing things, then I wish you luck when you go back.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

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[skybytch 259]

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A good coach of anything should not tell you how great you are if you suck. They should matter-of-factly tell you what you did well and leave it at that, then spend most effort on what you did wrong and how to improve it.

And that's different from "accentuating the positive" how?

[peregrinerose 0]

You are very quick to crucify other instructors (and/or the student) without having been there for the jump or talking with the instructors in question.

I've been a doctor and skydiving instructor long enough to know that people seldom recall things accurately when they are trying to absorb a whole lot of information in a comparitively short time. More than once I've heard butchered accounts of what was actually said/done... not because the person intends to be misleading, but that's honestly how they recall it. That's just how the brain can work sometimes, especially when clouded by adrenaline and pain/embarrassment.

I've seen instructors spend 2 hours with a student in a debrief only to have the student come back the next day and tell me that the instructor didn't debrief them much... even though I was on the DZ and saw it happen.

Someday it will be you in the other instructors' shoes... some student will warp something that you said/did in training, it happens to all of us. And you'll have a student that honestly believes their account is accurate.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda