mdrejhon 8 #26 August 18, 2008 I like tandem progression systems better. When one extra tandem, as leninent fluff, is added to the beginning of the official progression, it is possible to claim that you pass, even if you don't pull on your first tandem. Basically, the first tandem jump of several tandem progression jumps (in certain variants of tandem progression, anyway) seems just a "sensory overload exposure" jump in many dropzones' tandem progressions. Designing a progression program to ensure a one-time pass, even if the first jump is just a sack-of-potatoes jump, seems a wise move to quickly 'ferret out the squeamish' on a dropzone's part and keep the interested coming back -- it may just be better suited for tandem progression jumps. From my memory, it was 4 tandems (2 fun + 2 educational) and 8 instructor assisted freefalls, so a fuller tandem progression than most. Officially, the tandems were not part of my program but introduced as "prerequisites" which made it it a part of mine so it can be viewed as a variant of a tandem progression. In retrospect, my beginning of jumping appeared to be a tandem progression of sorts, because I had some exercises to do on my final two of four pre-requisite tandems, even though they weren't advertised as being part of "skydive school" back at the time. Just saying "did you have fun?" -- "yes" -- "you pass." to go onto a more rigorous second tandem with a pull responsibility (or a pull waveoff) and qualification into classroom stuff/other exercises, etc. It's a good way to pull in people at some dropzones, I think... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #27 August 18, 2008 Quotewho was your instructors? (ps, you are not required to pull your own parachute on level one, though if I were you I wouldn't trust anyone else to save my own life) Please please please reconsider your words here. Think back to your FJC.... 'who is responsible for your skydive?' The answer to that is YOU, not your instructors.... Instructors, RSLs, AADs... all are back up systems, not the primary. The moment you leave that aircraft, if you do nothing, you will die. There is no safety net of immunity on a level 1 just because it's a first AFF jump, a level 1 can die just as easily as a level 2. Re-read your SIM, it very clearly states that the AFF level 1 (Cat A) needs to pull. It's one of the learning objectives, it's part of the dive flow. The original poster: 1. Did not know his altitude, yet did not pull (remember pull priorities, he violated them) 2. He did not respond to a pull signal given by his instructors. 3. He did not pull at all These are big problems. It's not about bashing a student. If it was a log book I was filling out, it would read very positively... for example 'good climbout and count, stable body position, responded to early hand signals. Reported trouble seeing altimeter, missed pull signal, instructor deployed. Good canopy control, good pattern, flared a bit high for butt landing. Next jump, work on alti awarness, hand signal response, and PLF, repeat level 1, recommend doing level 1 and 2 in one day soon!' It's overall a very positive log book entry, with three aspects to work on for the next skydive. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreaming13000 1 #28 August 18, 2008 I did reconsider them "A man only gets in life what he is believing for, nothing more and nothing less" Kenneth Hagen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lowpull 0 #29 August 18, 2008 Nick, I have read your posts on here for a long time, and except for your wanting to eliminate tandems from our sport, I generally agree with most of what you say. That being said, I DID NOT say that you were setting a bad precedent for this student. I DID say his instructors did, by allowing him to pass this jump after failing the most important objective set before him. Saving his life by pulling. Since I have been an instuctor(1994 by the way)I have become a master at finding a way to accentuate the positive on every jump I am fortunate enough to accompany one of our students on. If they are unable to grasp the seriousness of the ruls set up for their(and my) safety, I will work and try to find a way to teach them to respect thy altitude,and be the safest skydiver they can be. As far as lowering the boom, if you do this long enough, you will eventually have to give the dreded"last jump course" Golf is a great sport, and 3 times in all my years I have had to tell someone they simply were not capable of being in the sky with us. As far as me giving him advice to shop for better I's, I didn't chime in here till I read advice from people with 130 jumps acting like the voice of God. This kid put this out for the whole world to read, and as you know, he is going to get tons of horrible advice from people that have no business trying to impart their input, although well intentioned it may be. I still stick to my original statement,,,,no pull, no pass. I hope this clears up my post, as I do not want this to devolve into the usual painfull rhetoric that this site seems to breed. peace ralph Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #30 August 19, 2008 That's fine Ralph, it's just shows there are small differences in how we, and others, go about teaching skydiving. But we all share the same goal of turning out safe and competent skydivers so it's all cool beans . . . And on the tandem thing, sometimes in real life you can get away with going off on something and it's soon forgotten, but once you write it down it gets set in cement. I was just kind of ranting on that one . . . And I know Tandem is here to stay . . . NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
denete 2 #31 August 19, 2008 Quote ...I could not see my altimiter... Quote ...somehow forgot to hold the flare... Quote ...what happened was that my raideo didn't work... Lots of scary stuff there. Glad you survived.SCR #14809 "our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe" (look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bloody_trauma 2 #32 August 19, 2008 i know of someone who got a pass for a level one on thier third tandem not naming names thoughshe'll be back to the DZ soon enough ready to rock Fly it like you stole it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #33 August 19, 2008 Quote >>Find better instructorsRalph, First off, is that a good thing to say to a student you don't know about an Instructor you don't know. And now you've got the kid going Instructor shopping . . . In most AFF programs, except for a little forward motion, AFF level two is already a repeat of AFF level one. And that's not a coincidence, it's how the system is designed to give the student some leeway on his first AFF jump. AFF level one is all about getting your feet wet. If a student has the cods to even attempt it, and they don't do anything really out of character for a first jump student in freefall or under canopy I'll always sign them off for level 2. Plus many level ones never come back for level two anyway. So if you write in their logbooks how bad they did they'll have to live with that for the rest of the lives. What's the point of that? I remember being a young fresh AFF Jumpmaster back in 1984 and going by the book on every level one. I'd fully debrief, do any re-training if I didn't pass them, or teach them and practice the TLOs for level two, but you know what? You're talking to a kid that just wants to shout at the moon after making their first parachute jump so just let them. Sometimes being a good AFF Instructor (I'm not saying you aren't) means knowing when to lower the boom on someone, but also knowing when to be more of a guide, mentor, cheer leader, or even in some cases a father figure. And just so you completely understand me, after level one it's all about completing the TLOs right down the line no questions asked. But that first jump is a big day in people's lives, and as long as they are able to stand there and talk to me after it's over, I'm not going to piss on their parade. And in all but the rarest cases a student with a pull issue on level one, if they return for level two and get appropriate remedial training (plus after mentally beating themselves up for not pulling) they do just fine. You said something earlier about my setting a bad precedent for later jumps. But I think you did that. Now when ever Hunt_Joshua_G has a problem of his own making he's going to go looking for another Instructor . . . NickD I quoted the entire thing - because on some days you and your stupid posts really piss me off (just kidding, I like people with attitude and opinions willing to share), but on this day, I think you are spot on and I fully agree. Further, I don't believe AFF is pass/fail. Dieing is failing. Cypres fire is a D-, almost fail. Everything else is an opportunity to improve on the previous jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hunt_Joshua_G 0 #34 August 19, 2008 I really am glad I am getting mixed replys. I am gonna go back to the DZ as soon as I can and ask to repeat the lvl one class and jump. I want to get this right. I messed up big time and am glad I had 2 ppl with me that pulled the chute for me. I was wondering, would adigital altimiter help with me not seeing it? Also on my next jump in case the radio fails I'm gonna ask if there is anyone that can flag me in so I donot mess up again. I want to get this right."When the people look like ants-PULL, When the ants look like people-PRAY." "Only skydivers know why the birds sing." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GaryRay 0 #35 August 19, 2008 Quote Quote Quote FWIW not having an altimeter during the free fall isnt as bad as not having it under canopy, I disagree. After a few dozen jumps, you should be able to eyeball your landing pattern and turn to final without any reference to an altimeter. Landing on target is all about sight picture, not "such and such an altitude at such and such a point." I've got several hundred low jumps without an altimeter, no problem. Andy F. of the Red Bull skydiving team told me he doesn't check his alti before a swoop, just eyeballs it and hucks a 720. At the very least, you leave a much smaller divot for not knowing your altitude under canopy than in freefall. Elsinore is perhaps the easiest DZ in the state (world?) for knowing when to pull in time if you don't use your altimeter. The ridge line is 1-2 miles west, and at an ideal height. i definately agree with that statement, but either way if you lose your alti and you know you have been falling for 45 sec to a minute, its ok to pull a little high, i agree with being able to eye ball your approach but i just never focused on that prior to hence my oppinion on it, and since then i have been paying more and more attention to the fact.JewBag. www.jewbag.wordpress.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #36 August 19, 2008 Noob here. I was taught that if I lose altitude awareness that I should pull - period. Is this not taught elsewhere? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrismgtis 0 #37 August 19, 2008 QuoteWell the title says it all. I did my AFF levle one and landed just a little hard, in fact I think I left a dent in the ground. the exit and freefall were good but I could not see my altimiter and by the time I noticed that my instructor was giving me the pull now signal it was too late he pulled it for me. My lines were twisted but I cleared that no prob. The ride down was good but when it came time to flare I flared way to high and somehow forgot to hold the flare and do a PLF instead i let the flare go and said hello to the ground real hard. my instructor came running over to see if i was ok but I was already on my feet. what happened was that my raideo didn't work so I was on my own the whole ride down. Still fun as hell and somehow I passed the Lvl1. in a few weeks I'll be back for Lvl 2. Don't beat yourself up because you didn't land so hot on AFF1. I bet 90% of the jumpers here can say that. I didn't crash persay, but I "tripped" lol. I landed and still had a little momentum and near face planted. And on AFF1, my instructors had to pull for me. I fumbled for it. After that I had no trouble. I nailed it from then on. Now go do your AFF2.Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033 Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #38 August 19, 2008 QuoteNoob here. I was taught that if I lose altitude awareness that I should pull - period. Is this not taught elsewhere? taught for the student jumps, or forever? The concern expressed is that if you pull very high, you might surprise the next group out, though exit separation ought to exist for the possibility of unplanned deploys (loose PC). But if you lose your altimeter out the door, there's no reason to pull immediately at 13k. You can get down to at least the AFF altitudes, and have time to track off the jump run, as well as look up and signal first. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wrightskyguy 1 #39 August 19, 2008 QuoteNoob here. I was taught that if I lose altitude awareness that I should pull - period. Is this not taught elsewhere? *** Where I jump we teach: CIA Comfotable In control Aware Anytime your skydive strays outside any of these parameters, it's pull time. John Wright World's most beloved skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yoink 321 #40 August 19, 2008 Quote I really am glad I am getting mixed replys. I am gonna go back to the DZ as soon as I can and ask to repeat the lvl one class and jump. I want to get this right. I messed up big time and am glad I had 2 ppl with me that pulled the chute for me. I was wondering, would adigital altimiter help with me not seeing it? Also on my next jump in case the radio fails I'm gonna ask if there is anyone that can flag me in so I donot mess up again. I want to get this right. Just go and talk to your instructors and trust them. I'm prepared to bet that they'll tell you to get off dz.com and relax a little. Smile. It's supposed to be fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #41 August 19, 2008 Quote I really am glad I am getting mixed replys. I am gonna go back to the DZ as soon as I can and ask to repeat the lvl one class and jump. I want to get this right. I messed up big time and am glad I had 2 ppl with me that pulled the chute for me. I was wondering, would adigital altimiter help with me not seeing it? Also on my next jump in case the radio fails I'm gonna ask if there is anyone that can flag me in so I donot mess up again. I want to get this right. Relax Relax, all of this is normal. It's a whole new world up there and sometimes it's a lot for your brain to handle in one shot. Learn from it, and you'll find that every jump gets easier... you'll have better recall, better awareness, and 'miraculously', you'll be able to hear the radio and see the alti just fine Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Chubba 0 #42 August 19, 2008 Quote I really am glad I am getting mixed replys. I am gonna go back to the DZ as soon as I can and ask to repeat the lvl one class and jump. I want to get this right. I messed up big time and am glad I had 2 ppl with me that pulled the chute for me. I was wondering, would adigital altimiter help with me not seeing it? Also on my next jump in case the radio fails I'm gonna ask if there is anyone that can flag me in so I donot mess up again. I want to get this right. Relax a bit, skydiving is supposed to be fun Like people have said, some dropzones/AFFI's allow passes for a no pull on stage 1. DZ.com is a very dynamic forum and it's best to talk to your instructors before you do something hasty like demand new AFFI's or change DZ's. I've seen no pulls on AFF1 walk away very happy and come back for a killer AFF2... it seems like this post has just killed your confidence and been counterproductive. Talk to your instructors! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wrightskyguy 1 #43 August 19, 2008 QuoteI've seen no pulls on AFF1 walk away very happy and come back for a killer AFF2... it seems like this post has just killed your confidence and been counterproductive. *** Nothing will kill you faster than false confidence. Maybe someone with 25 jumps should'nt be giving advice to students. John Wright World's most beloved skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NickDG 23 #44 August 19, 2008 Joshua, Sometimes I think students had an easier time of it before there were forums like this . . . Re-taking the FJC, although you can if you insist, is something seldom done unless a very long time elapses between your student jumps. And I doubt in your case it's necessary. But here's a couple of things you can do. Reading an altimeter in freefall during a first jump is something some experienced jumpers take for granted, but it's a big new thing for FJC students. And it can be difficult for some of them. One trick I use with students in class is to set an altimeter to a number like 7000 and quickly flash it in front of their faces and then move it away. Then another number and another until they get used to reading it quickly. There's no reason you can't ask for an altimeter and go sit with another student and practice that yourself. If the problem was your altimeter got moved or turned around so you couldn't read it, one of the Instructors should have fixed it, or one, or both, of them should have been wearing a chest mounted analog altimeter that you could see and read. Or, at least your reserve side Instructor should have an analog wrist mount altimeter on their left hand to put in front of you. Or, and be honest now, were you not able to read your altimeter just because you were flustered? You also said you radio didn't work. Did it really not work? Did they do a radio check on the ground while you were gearing up? Or was it working and you couldn't make out what was being said? Or were you so over-amped you couldn't follow what was being said. Again be honest about it because we only have what you're saying to go on, and it's very doubtful your Instructors were the cause of all these problems. (I know you didn't come right out and say that, but it's one of the conclusions you leave dangling). And in any case if the radio completely failed than you did a fine job as it sounds like you didn't land off the DZ or downwind or anything like that . . . As for the paddles for landing, any good Instructor, can tell fairly quickly when a student isn't following the radio, or there may be a radio problem. And any DZ I've ever worked at (and I worked as an Instructor at the DZ your at now) has a back up plan. Either its paddles, or a large arrow on the ground they can turn, or in a pinch an Instructor using his arms to mimic what you should be doing on final approach. So let's recap – You had trouble reading your altimeter, you didn't pull for yourself, and you landed hard. (Sometimes "hard" is subjective. Students watch great landings all day long and then when they land in a heap, it becomes a hard landing.) And I know you don't have the knowledge right now to compare, and don't know what true horror stories some level ones can be, but in your case, your jump sounds like a garden variety AFF level one to me. So drop all the drama and suck it up for level two. Oh, and please, don't go back to the DZ and say to your Instructors, "Hey, some guy named Nick on the internet said you guys all suck here." If you do I'll hear about it and someday you're going to run into me in the parking lot of some DZ and we'd to have a little "talk" about it . . . NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #45 August 19, 2008 Quote Sometimes I think students had an easier time of it before there were forums like this . . . Great post Nick.... and I agree totally with the above line. And have to add that instructors also had a much easier time of it before there were forums like this. I have a LOT of gray hair from students reading far too much online, thinking too much, having warped priorities, and thinking they know far more than they really do. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hunt_Joshua_G 0 #46 August 19, 2008 Quote Joshua, and be honest now, were you not able to read your altimeter just because you were flustered? You also said you radio didn't work. Did it really not work? Did they do a radio check on the ground while you were gearing up? Or was it working and you couldn't make out what was being said? Or were you so over-amped you couldn't follow what was being said. NickD This is what happened with the altimeter, it was in the right place on my arm and never moved. I saw it clear afyer we lwft the plane and right after my practice pulls. but then i just could not seethe needle no matter what. i may have just locked up or had an overload not to sure. The radio is a diferant story all together, when they did a radio check in the gear room it didn't work well so they changed it. they did another check when walking to the plane and they didn't like it so they changed it for a second time. then when we were in the plane and going up they changed it once again with another radio from a guy in the plane. when I was under the canopy all I could hear was static. that was it."When the people look like ants-PULL, When the ants look like people-PRAY." "Only skydivers know why the birds sing." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Reginald 0 #47 August 19, 2008 Quoteno pull, no pass period. Like John Wright, I am going to do everything to keep the student motivated and coming back,but, no pull, no pass. I agree 100%. It is unconscionable that a no pull student is moved on to the next level."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites npgraphicdesign 2 #48 August 19, 2008 http://npgraphicdesign.com/myphotos/skydive2/ This was a short journal entry I did about my first AFF2 jump. I learned a lot from that jump, the first and foremost bit of knowledge being DO NOT CRASH INTO TREES Thankfully I got of pretty easy, and I had to repeat it because i hesitated when pulling and missed my target altitude by about 1000feet. The 2nd time I did my AFF2, I froze completely, and only 'woke up' when it was time to pull, and I still pulled late, about 700 feet too late. Going back to my recurrence training memorial day weekend and starting to jump again. I learned that there is no shame in repeating jumps. Yes it's more money and time, but wouldn't you rather get it right, when a potential mistake could be very very costly? So while I was beating myself up about having to repeat AFF2 a 3rd time, I'm not any more. Looking forward to jumping again!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites voodew1 0 #49 August 19, 2008 I can only remember failing 2 - LVL 1 students and one of them I paid for his repeat as I couldn't match fall rate and was like a streamer above him until I couldn't take it anymore and pulled him out. AFF LVL 1 is nothing more than a 'high performance' tandem ---- thats a quote from an old military freefall instructor and my first DZO I worked at. At the time being a new instructor I thought he was crazy --- now I love the saying and really thats what it is -- how can you expect someone in freefall for the first time to do everything right As said LVL 2 no free rides and no pull assist --- if you don't do it right we don't move on to the release dive The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Fast 0 #50 August 19, 2008 Quote At the time being a new instructor I thought he was crazy --- now I love the saying and really thats what it is -- how can you expect someone in freefall for the first time to do everything right It is what we expect of our students at my dropzone. They have to get two things right follow hand signals and pull at the right altitude. That's what we consider "everything." We don't pass students that don't initiate the pull process. If they do nothing and burn through student pull altitude and ignore pull signals they go up to try it again. If they need some help finding the handle that's a whole different story. The primary thing we require is altitude awareness. If they don't realize it's time to pull when that is the only task they have, how could they possibly do it with other stuff going on.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 2 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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yoink 321 #40 August 19, 2008 Quote I really am glad I am getting mixed replys. I am gonna go back to the DZ as soon as I can and ask to repeat the lvl one class and jump. I want to get this right. I messed up big time and am glad I had 2 ppl with me that pulled the chute for me. I was wondering, would adigital altimiter help with me not seeing it? Also on my next jump in case the radio fails I'm gonna ask if there is anyone that can flag me in so I donot mess up again. I want to get this right. Just go and talk to your instructors and trust them. I'm prepared to bet that they'll tell you to get off dz.com and relax a little. Smile. It's supposed to be fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #41 August 19, 2008 Quote I really am glad I am getting mixed replys. I am gonna go back to the DZ as soon as I can and ask to repeat the lvl one class and jump. I want to get this right. I messed up big time and am glad I had 2 ppl with me that pulled the chute for me. I was wondering, would adigital altimiter help with me not seeing it? Also on my next jump in case the radio fails I'm gonna ask if there is anyone that can flag me in so I donot mess up again. I want to get this right. Relax Relax, all of this is normal. It's a whole new world up there and sometimes it's a lot for your brain to handle in one shot. Learn from it, and you'll find that every jump gets easier... you'll have better recall, better awareness, and 'miraculously', you'll be able to hear the radio and see the alti just fine Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chubba 0 #42 August 19, 2008 Quote I really am glad I am getting mixed replys. I am gonna go back to the DZ as soon as I can and ask to repeat the lvl one class and jump. I want to get this right. I messed up big time and am glad I had 2 ppl with me that pulled the chute for me. I was wondering, would adigital altimiter help with me not seeing it? Also on my next jump in case the radio fails I'm gonna ask if there is anyone that can flag me in so I donot mess up again. I want to get this right. Relax a bit, skydiving is supposed to be fun Like people have said, some dropzones/AFFI's allow passes for a no pull on stage 1. DZ.com is a very dynamic forum and it's best to talk to your instructors before you do something hasty like demand new AFFI's or change DZ's. I've seen no pulls on AFF1 walk away very happy and come back for a killer AFF2... it seems like this post has just killed your confidence and been counterproductive. Talk to your instructors! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wrightskyguy 1 #43 August 19, 2008 QuoteI've seen no pulls on AFF1 walk away very happy and come back for a killer AFF2... it seems like this post has just killed your confidence and been counterproductive. *** Nothing will kill you faster than false confidence. Maybe someone with 25 jumps should'nt be giving advice to students. John Wright World's most beloved skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NickDG 23 #44 August 19, 2008 Joshua, Sometimes I think students had an easier time of it before there were forums like this . . . Re-taking the FJC, although you can if you insist, is something seldom done unless a very long time elapses between your student jumps. And I doubt in your case it's necessary. But here's a couple of things you can do. Reading an altimeter in freefall during a first jump is something some experienced jumpers take for granted, but it's a big new thing for FJC students. And it can be difficult for some of them. One trick I use with students in class is to set an altimeter to a number like 7000 and quickly flash it in front of their faces and then move it away. Then another number and another until they get used to reading it quickly. There's no reason you can't ask for an altimeter and go sit with another student and practice that yourself. If the problem was your altimeter got moved or turned around so you couldn't read it, one of the Instructors should have fixed it, or one, or both, of them should have been wearing a chest mounted analog altimeter that you could see and read. Or, at least your reserve side Instructor should have an analog wrist mount altimeter on their left hand to put in front of you. Or, and be honest now, were you not able to read your altimeter just because you were flustered? You also said you radio didn't work. Did it really not work? Did they do a radio check on the ground while you were gearing up? Or was it working and you couldn't make out what was being said? Or were you so over-amped you couldn't follow what was being said. Again be honest about it because we only have what you're saying to go on, and it's very doubtful your Instructors were the cause of all these problems. (I know you didn't come right out and say that, but it's one of the conclusions you leave dangling). And in any case if the radio completely failed than you did a fine job as it sounds like you didn't land off the DZ or downwind or anything like that . . . As for the paddles for landing, any good Instructor, can tell fairly quickly when a student isn't following the radio, or there may be a radio problem. And any DZ I've ever worked at (and I worked as an Instructor at the DZ your at now) has a back up plan. Either its paddles, or a large arrow on the ground they can turn, or in a pinch an Instructor using his arms to mimic what you should be doing on final approach. So let's recap – You had trouble reading your altimeter, you didn't pull for yourself, and you landed hard. (Sometimes "hard" is subjective. Students watch great landings all day long and then when they land in a heap, it becomes a hard landing.) And I know you don't have the knowledge right now to compare, and don't know what true horror stories some level ones can be, but in your case, your jump sounds like a garden variety AFF level one to me. So drop all the drama and suck it up for level two. Oh, and please, don't go back to the DZ and say to your Instructors, "Hey, some guy named Nick on the internet said you guys all suck here." If you do I'll hear about it and someday you're going to run into me in the parking lot of some DZ and we'd to have a little "talk" about it . . . NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #45 August 19, 2008 Quote Sometimes I think students had an easier time of it before there were forums like this . . . Great post Nick.... and I agree totally with the above line. And have to add that instructors also had a much easier time of it before there were forums like this. I have a LOT of gray hair from students reading far too much online, thinking too much, having warped priorities, and thinking they know far more than they really do. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hunt_Joshua_G 0 #46 August 19, 2008 Quote Joshua, and be honest now, were you not able to read your altimeter just because you were flustered? You also said you radio didn't work. Did it really not work? Did they do a radio check on the ground while you were gearing up? Or was it working and you couldn't make out what was being said? Or were you so over-amped you couldn't follow what was being said. NickD This is what happened with the altimeter, it was in the right place on my arm and never moved. I saw it clear afyer we lwft the plane and right after my practice pulls. but then i just could not seethe needle no matter what. i may have just locked up or had an overload not to sure. The radio is a diferant story all together, when they did a radio check in the gear room it didn't work well so they changed it. they did another check when walking to the plane and they didn't like it so they changed it for a second time. then when we were in the plane and going up they changed it once again with another radio from a guy in the plane. when I was under the canopy all I could hear was static. that was it."When the people look like ants-PULL, When the ants look like people-PRAY." "Only skydivers know why the birds sing." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Reginald 0 #47 August 19, 2008 Quoteno pull, no pass period. Like John Wright, I am going to do everything to keep the student motivated and coming back,but, no pull, no pass. I agree 100%. It is unconscionable that a no pull student is moved on to the next level."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites npgraphicdesign 2 #48 August 19, 2008 http://npgraphicdesign.com/myphotos/skydive2/ This was a short journal entry I did about my first AFF2 jump. I learned a lot from that jump, the first and foremost bit of knowledge being DO NOT CRASH INTO TREES Thankfully I got of pretty easy, and I had to repeat it because i hesitated when pulling and missed my target altitude by about 1000feet. The 2nd time I did my AFF2, I froze completely, and only 'woke up' when it was time to pull, and I still pulled late, about 700 feet too late. Going back to my recurrence training memorial day weekend and starting to jump again. I learned that there is no shame in repeating jumps. Yes it's more money and time, but wouldn't you rather get it right, when a potential mistake could be very very costly? So while I was beating myself up about having to repeat AFF2 a 3rd time, I'm not any more. Looking forward to jumping again!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites voodew1 0 #49 August 19, 2008 I can only remember failing 2 - LVL 1 students and one of them I paid for his repeat as I couldn't match fall rate and was like a streamer above him until I couldn't take it anymore and pulled him out. AFF LVL 1 is nothing more than a 'high performance' tandem ---- thats a quote from an old military freefall instructor and my first DZO I worked at. At the time being a new instructor I thought he was crazy --- now I love the saying and really thats what it is -- how can you expect someone in freefall for the first time to do everything right As said LVL 2 no free rides and no pull assist --- if you don't do it right we don't move on to the release dive The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Fast 0 #50 August 19, 2008 Quote At the time being a new instructor I thought he was crazy --- now I love the saying and really thats what it is -- how can you expect someone in freefall for the first time to do everything right It is what we expect of our students at my dropzone. They have to get two things right follow hand signals and pull at the right altitude. That's what we consider "everything." We don't pass students that don't initiate the pull process. If they do nothing and burn through student pull altitude and ignore pull signals they go up to try it again. If they need some help finding the handle that's a whole different story. The primary thing we require is altitude awareness. If they don't realize it's time to pull when that is the only task they have, how could they possibly do it with other stuff going on.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 2 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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NickDG 23 #44 August 19, 2008 Joshua, Sometimes I think students had an easier time of it before there were forums like this . . . Re-taking the FJC, although you can if you insist, is something seldom done unless a very long time elapses between your student jumps. And I doubt in your case it's necessary. But here's a couple of things you can do. Reading an altimeter in freefall during a first jump is something some experienced jumpers take for granted, but it's a big new thing for FJC students. And it can be difficult for some of them. One trick I use with students in class is to set an altimeter to a number like 7000 and quickly flash it in front of their faces and then move it away. Then another number and another until they get used to reading it quickly. There's no reason you can't ask for an altimeter and go sit with another student and practice that yourself. If the problem was your altimeter got moved or turned around so you couldn't read it, one of the Instructors should have fixed it, or one, or both, of them should have been wearing a chest mounted analog altimeter that you could see and read. Or, at least your reserve side Instructor should have an analog wrist mount altimeter on their left hand to put in front of you. Or, and be honest now, were you not able to read your altimeter just because you were flustered? You also said you radio didn't work. Did it really not work? Did they do a radio check on the ground while you were gearing up? Or was it working and you couldn't make out what was being said? Or were you so over-amped you couldn't follow what was being said. Again be honest about it because we only have what you're saying to go on, and it's very doubtful your Instructors were the cause of all these problems. (I know you didn't come right out and say that, but it's one of the conclusions you leave dangling). And in any case if the radio completely failed than you did a fine job as it sounds like you didn't land off the DZ or downwind or anything like that . . . As for the paddles for landing, any good Instructor, can tell fairly quickly when a student isn't following the radio, or there may be a radio problem. And any DZ I've ever worked at (and I worked as an Instructor at the DZ your at now) has a back up plan. Either its paddles, or a large arrow on the ground they can turn, or in a pinch an Instructor using his arms to mimic what you should be doing on final approach. So let's recap – You had trouble reading your altimeter, you didn't pull for yourself, and you landed hard. (Sometimes "hard" is subjective. Students watch great landings all day long and then when they land in a heap, it becomes a hard landing.) And I know you don't have the knowledge right now to compare, and don't know what true horror stories some level ones can be, but in your case, your jump sounds like a garden variety AFF level one to me. So drop all the drama and suck it up for level two. Oh, and please, don't go back to the DZ and say to your Instructors, "Hey, some guy named Nick on the internet said you guys all suck here." If you do I'll hear about it and someday you're going to run into me in the parking lot of some DZ and we'd to have a little "talk" about it . . . NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #45 August 19, 2008 Quote Sometimes I think students had an easier time of it before there were forums like this . . . Great post Nick.... and I agree totally with the above line. And have to add that instructors also had a much easier time of it before there were forums like this. I have a LOT of gray hair from students reading far too much online, thinking too much, having warped priorities, and thinking they know far more than they really do. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hunt_Joshua_G 0 #46 August 19, 2008 Quote Joshua, and be honest now, were you not able to read your altimeter just because you were flustered? You also said you radio didn't work. Did it really not work? Did they do a radio check on the ground while you were gearing up? Or was it working and you couldn't make out what was being said? Or were you so over-amped you couldn't follow what was being said. NickD This is what happened with the altimeter, it was in the right place on my arm and never moved. I saw it clear afyer we lwft the plane and right after my practice pulls. but then i just could not seethe needle no matter what. i may have just locked up or had an overload not to sure. The radio is a diferant story all together, when they did a radio check in the gear room it didn't work well so they changed it. they did another check when walking to the plane and they didn't like it so they changed it for a second time. then when we were in the plane and going up they changed it once again with another radio from a guy in the plane. when I was under the canopy all I could hear was static. that was it."When the people look like ants-PULL, When the ants look like people-PRAY." "Only skydivers know why the birds sing." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #47 August 19, 2008 Quoteno pull, no pass period. Like John Wright, I am going to do everything to keep the student motivated and coming back,but, no pull, no pass. I agree 100%. It is unconscionable that a no pull student is moved on to the next level."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
npgraphicdesign 2 #48 August 19, 2008 http://npgraphicdesign.com/myphotos/skydive2/ This was a short journal entry I did about my first AFF2 jump. I learned a lot from that jump, the first and foremost bit of knowledge being DO NOT CRASH INTO TREES Thankfully I got of pretty easy, and I had to repeat it because i hesitated when pulling and missed my target altitude by about 1000feet. The 2nd time I did my AFF2, I froze completely, and only 'woke up' when it was time to pull, and I still pulled late, about 700 feet too late. Going back to my recurrence training memorial day weekend and starting to jump again. I learned that there is no shame in repeating jumps. Yes it's more money and time, but wouldn't you rather get it right, when a potential mistake could be very very costly? So while I was beating myself up about having to repeat AFF2 a 3rd time, I'm not any more. Looking forward to jumping again!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voodew1 0 #49 August 19, 2008 I can only remember failing 2 - LVL 1 students and one of them I paid for his repeat as I couldn't match fall rate and was like a streamer above him until I couldn't take it anymore and pulled him out. AFF LVL 1 is nothing more than a 'high performance' tandem ---- thats a quote from an old military freefall instructor and my first DZO I worked at. At the time being a new instructor I thought he was crazy --- now I love the saying and really thats what it is -- how can you expect someone in freefall for the first time to do everything right As said LVL 2 no free rides and no pull assist --- if you don't do it right we don't move on to the release dive The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #50 August 19, 2008 Quote At the time being a new instructor I thought he was crazy --- now I love the saying and really thats what it is -- how can you expect someone in freefall for the first time to do everything right It is what we expect of our students at my dropzone. They have to get two things right follow hand signals and pull at the right altitude. That's what we consider "everything." We don't pass students that don't initiate the pull process. If they do nothing and burn through student pull altitude and ignore pull signals they go up to try it again. If they need some help finding the handle that's a whole different story. The primary thing we require is altitude awareness. If they don't realize it's time to pull when that is the only task they have, how could they possibly do it with other stuff going on.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
