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Jin2Kazama

To anyone who wears a shoulder brace

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Hi all, I am going to Sebastian for AFF end of October and was really excited and looking forward to it until a discussion on a uk forum cropped up about injuries. I am becoming increasingly concerned (read shitting myself) about dislocating my shoulder. My left shoulder came out once about 14 years ago, and my right came out 3 or 4 times, this happenned during matial arts mainly, but since then I had surgery (Bankarts procedure) on my right arm around 12 years ago and it has been ok since. I really do not relish the thought of a dislocation in mid air - they're bad enough on the ground - so I was thinking of trying a shoulder support or brace. I wanted to know from the people that have worn a shoulder brace how it has worked for them and what sort of success rate it has. Thanks,

Lawrence

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It'd be pretty hard to wear a shoulder brace while jumping. The purpose of a brace is normally to keep a joint in a neutral position. It's rare that your shoulders are in anything resembling a neutral position when you're jumping, regardless of discipline. If the repair was done properly, you shouldn't need one; the labrum should be stronger than it was before.

I've had three shoulder surgeries - two on the left, one on the right - which included a Bankart's repair on each shoulder. (There was rotator cuff and biceps tendon damage, as well.) Each shoulder was immobilized for six weeks after each procedure, then I went through another 6-8 weeks in a sling, doing PT three times a week. Other than being grounded through the healing process, the surgeries haven't impacted my jumping. In fact, they hurt a hell of a lot less now than they used to, and I haven't had any more dislocations (other than that one snowboarding accident...[:/]).

May the (relative) wind take your troubles away...

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I don't use a brace, but I have bad shoulders and have dislocated my shoulder on exit, so I'll give you my .02


First lets look at it from a procedure standpoint. Your right comes out you can pull your reserve. If it's your left you can pull your main. Then you need to land. To land you have a couple of options. use your good arm to release the toggles. you can steer with both toggles in one hand, it's a little tricky but not all that hard. You can also steer with one hand and then just before you land trnsfer the toggle to your bad arm and flare which is easier to steer, but probably painful.

The thing is to have a well thought out plan before it happens.

I found the hardest thing was getting out of the rig. I had to have help to do that and would have been in excruciating pain if I had had to do it myself.

It also helps if you can tell someone how to reduce your shoulder.

PS think it hurts when it comes out? Just try going from 120 to 20 mph in a few seconds with it out of socket.

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there is like two windtunnel in UK... go in there and test them out.. if shoulder wants to come out, wind should pop em out in couple min...

like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhJmNUFf3fk

and DO tell your instructors about this and they'll teach you different flying style for your shoulder..

and real skydiving is little bit more easier on your shoulder than wind tunnel.
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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there is like two windtunnel in UK... go in there and test them out.. if shoulder wants to come out, wind should pop em out in couple min...

like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhJmNUFf3fk

and DO tell your instructors about this and they'll teach you different flying style for your shoulder..

and real skydiving is little bit more easier on your shoulder than wind tunnel.


I have emailed Sebastian and have given them my history, and they say it's my call if I want to jump. I thought AFF was AFF and cannot be modified, even to suit someone with potentially vulnerable shoulders. Re: the wind tunnel thing, I have been thinking about trying this out but the thought of my arm slipping out just fills me with dread, and being so close to going it would stuff up my chances of doing AFF in October too. although better it pops in the tunnel than 12000 ft up I suppose[:/].

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I don't use a brace, but I have bad shoulders and have dislocated my shoulder on exit, so I'll give you my .02


First lets look at it from a procedure standpoint. Your right comes out you can pull your reserve. If it's your left you can pull your main. Then you need to land. To land you have a couple of options. use your good arm to release the toggles. you can steer with both toggles in one hand, it's a little tricky but not all that hard. You can also steer with one hand and then just before you land trnsfer the toggle to your bad arm and flare which is easier to steer, but probably painful.

The thing is to have a well thought out plan before it happens.

I found the hardest thing was getting out of the rig. I had to have help to do that and would have been in excruciating pain if I had had to do it myself.

It also helps if you can tell someone how to reduce your shoulder.

PS think it hurts when it comes out? Just try going from 120 to 20 mph in a few seconds with it out of socket.


I think I would probably pass out if that happened to me, I cannot imagine how painful that must be. My biggest fear is having both pop out and leaving my fate to the AAD!

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It'd be pretty hard to wear a shoulder brace while jumping. The purpose of a brace is normally to keep a joint in a neutral position. It's rare that your shoulders are in anything resembling a neutral position when you're jumping, regardless of discipline. If the repair was done properly, you shouldn't need one; the labrum should be stronger than it was before.

I've had three shoulder surgeries - two on the left, one on the right - which included a Bankart's repair on each shoulder. (There was rotator cuff and biceps tendon damage, as well.) Each shoulder was immobilized for six weeks after each procedure, then I went through another 6-8 weeks in a sling, doing PT three times a week. Other than being grounded through the healing process, the surgeries haven't impacted my jumping. In fact, they hurt a hell of a lot less now than they used to, and I haven't had any more dislocations (other than that one snowboarding accident...[:/]).


I am only going by my search results on this forum. It seems quite a few people have resorted to wearing a shoulder support and with good results. I couldn't believe how common an injury this is in skydiving; however it is very reassuring as I thought I was the only one with this problem!
So do the dislocations hurt less now because you are used to them more?

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I had the same surgery after an accident and 2 in-air dislocations.
Wore a brace for my next 3 jumps with no incident - it was probably all mental, honestly. I don't remember what the name of my brace is but I will look when I get home.
I do confess, the tunnel wrecked me. I didn't have trouble per se but could hardly raise my arm for the rest of the day - but 30 min is way longer than a skydive. This was about 8 months post-op.
life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all.
(helen keller)

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I've had both my shoulders repaired due to recurring dislocations back in the early 1970s.

I dislocated my right twice doing downwind accuracy (round parachute days) and then it dislocated in freefall. I used my left arm to pull my main ripcord (no handdeploys at that time) and was able to steer my PC with my left arm and just made left turns to land. With my right shoulder out of joint, I wasn't even able to take the main ripcord out of the pocket, let alone pull it. I had no pain on any of the three dislocations until later but there was no doubt in my mind what had happened. When it happened in freefall, my right arm just flopped to my side as I recall.

I had the surgery and waited six months to jump again and used an AAD as back up until I was confident of the fix. The next year, my left started to dislocate in freefall and I had it fixed as well and went through the same re-entry into the sport as the first time. I had 300-500 jumps at that time. I've made more than 3,000 jumps since and no ill effects other than sometimes tired shoulders after 5-6 jumps from 13.5.

With hand deploys, high performance main canopies, square reserves, etc. I would make damn sure both shoulders were good, jump an AAD on my reserve, and have a plan if a shoulder dislocated in freefall...deploy the main?, deploy the reserve? how do I flare, etc.
"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

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I've had both my shoulders repaired due to recurring dislocations back in the early 1970s.

I dislocated my right twice doing downwind accuracy (round parachute days) and then it dislocated in freefall. I used my left arm to pull my main ripcord (no handdeploys at that time) and was able to steer my PC with my left arm and just made left turns to land. With my right shoulder out of joint, I wasn't even able to take the main ripcord out of the pocket, let alone pull it. I had no pain on any of the three dislocations until later but there was no doubt in my mind what had happened. When it happened in freefall, my right arm just flopped to my side as I recall.

I had the surgery and waited six months to jump again and used an AAD as back up until I was confident of the fix. The next year, my left started to dislocate in freefall and I had it fixed as well and went through the same re-entry into the sport as the first time. I had 300-500 jumps at that time. I've made more than 3,000 jumps since and no ill effects other than sometimes tired shoulders after 5-6 jumps from 13.5.

With hand deploys, high performance main canopies, square reserves, etc. I would make damn sure both shoulders were good, jump an AAD on my reserve, and have a plan if a shoulder dislocated in freefall...deploy the main?, deploy the reserve? how do I flare, etc.


Speaking theoreticaly as I cannot speak from experience as I don't have any, I would think the main if reachable would be the first choice over cutting away, but then I would worry about dislocating my remaining good arm struggling to get to the throw away [:/] hey, what do I know!

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Re: the wind tunnel thing, I have been thinking about trying this out but the thought of my arm slipping out just fills me with dread, and being so close to going it would stuff up my chances of doing AFF in October too. although better it pops in the tunnel than 12000 ft up I suppose[:/].



??? You'd rather take your chances that it happens in freefall? Then you might break some leg parts too!

I did 10 minutes in the tunnel and had a high level of confidence that my repaired shoulder would do fine with the recurrency training later in the afternoon. After 1 AFF style and two other jumps that day, my shoulder was tired, but it held up, mostly (tracking was inpacted by fatigue.)

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I don't use a brace, but I have bad shoulders and have dislocated my shoulder on exit, so I'll give you my .02


First lets look at it from a procedure standpoint. Your right comes out you can pull your reserve. If it's your left you can pull your main. Then you need to land. To land you have a couple of options. use your good arm to release the toggles. you can steer with both toggles in one hand, it's a little tricky but not all that hard. You can also steer with one hand and then just before you land trnsfer the toggle to your bad arm and flare which is easier to steer, but probably painful.

The thing is to have a well thought out plan before it happens.

I found the hardest thing was getting out of the rig. I had to have help to do that and would have been in excruciating pain if I had had to do it myself.

It also helps if you can tell someone how to reduce your shoulder.

PS think it hurts when it comes out? Just try going from 120 to 20 mph in a few seconds with it out of socket.


I think I would probably pass out if that happened to me, I cannot imagine how painful that must be. My biggest fear is having both pop out and leaving my fate to the AAD!



It sounds like it takes a violent action before your shoulder comes out, if that's the case I wouldn't worry too much. My incident was my fault. I trusted a student that I had done coach jumps with to go on go with a connected exit. she didn't go until I pulled her off the plane. needless to say the difference in speed between the two of us caused my shoulder to come out. Other than that I've had it pop out and right back in once in free fall, when I first started sit flying which doesn't leave me without an arm, but hurts like a MF'er.

Either way if you still have the bands for PT then start strengthening your shoulders. Can't hurt and it might help. Depending on how "loose" your shoulder joints are. You might also want to consult with your orthopedic dude. Hope that doesn't muddy the water too much.


PS I doubt you'd pass out it's amazing how much pain you can take if you believe your life depends on it.

PSS For peace of mind you can ask the AFF instructor to go over/recommend procedures for you to take if it does happen. No matter what ......HAVE A PLAN!!!!!

(Edit. I had to modify my reach and pull from day one. For symmetry most teach you to reach in a circular motion, if it was just the circular motion without rotation I could do it, but you have to rotate your hand 180 degrees while doing the circular motion. My shoulder don't like that at all. I reach down and angle in to the hacky/handle, and have had no problems what so ever.)

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no dude... reserves are fully steerable canopy but how are you going to turn and flair the canopy with both arms taken out? or even with just one shoulder dislocation??

and AAD will work 99.9999999999999999999999999% of time.

and I say try out the wind tunnel thing before you cross over the pond and do the real thing..

if your shoulder holds up to bedford or airkix tunnel, it will hold during freefall...

not only tunnel will give you confidence that shoulder will hold up during freefall, you'll gain tremendous amount of freefall skill needed to pass every aff level without failing, and repeating again..
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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no dude... reserves are fully steerable canopy but how are you going to turn and flair the canopy with both arms taken out? or even with just one shoulder dislocation??

I tried to fly (and more importantly flare, at height obviously) my canopy with 1 arm because I was curious and it always comes up as a topic.

Extremely hard B| The bad thing is you're at the mercy of the wind, it's all good getting both toggles in 1 hand, but on your final you will be probably blown crosswind/downwind and you can't correct it without dropping a toggle... and I definitely wouldn't want to land downwind with no flare.

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no dude... reserves are fully steerable canopy but how are you going to turn and flair the canopy with both arms taken out? or even with just one shoulder dislocation??

I tried to fly (and more importantly flare, at height obviously) my canopy with 1 arm because I was curious and it always comes up as a topic.

Extremely hard B| The bad thing is you're at the mercy of the wind, it's all good getting both toggles in 1 hand, but on your final you will be probably blown crosswind/downwind and you can't correct it without dropping a toggle... and I definitely wouldn't want to land downwind with no flare.


Your not at the mercy of the wind with one arm. I know this!! When turning you have to compensate for the fact that your most likely going to be pulling the brake line opposite your arm farther. Lets say you only have your right arm. when you pull down you'll probably turn left, because you'll tend to pull down the right side of your body. move your arm across your body and you'll turn right. To flare you have to move diagonally down and to the left. I actually grabbed my left toggle with my left hand at a point a little below my neck and finished the flare with both hands. It was twitchy ,but it worked and if I had my left arm working I could have run it out . Instead I stumbled and hit the ground which sucked.

I was under a [email protected]:1 so I didn't have to pull down as far to flare or turn. Don't know if that makes a big difference for turns, but I imagine it does for the flare

I did end up landing down wind, but only because I spent most of my time flying in circles trying to get my arm back in socket and not paying enough attention to where I was

Do you really think you have enough experience at 25 jumps to be saying what is and what is not possible?

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Re: the wind tunnel thing, I have been thinking about trying this out but the thought of my arm slipping out just fills me with dread, and being so close to going it would stuff up my chances of doing AFF in October too. although better it pops in the tunnel than 12000 ft up I suppose[:/].



??? You'd rather take your chances that it happens in freefall? Then you might break some leg parts too!

No. not at all hence the last comment.

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no dude... reserves are fully steerable canopy but how are you going to turn and flair the canopy with both arms taken out? or even with just one shoulder dislocation??


Right, I get it now! Doh.:S
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and AAD will work 99.9999999999999999999999999% of time.

and I say try out the wind tunnel thing before you cross over the pond and do the real thing..

if your shoulder holds up to bedford or airkix tunnel, it will hold during freefall...

not only tunnel will give you confidence that shoulder will hold up during freefall, you'll gain tremendous amount of freefall skill needed to pass every aff level without failing, and repeating again..


Ok, you've convinced me to go get in the tunnel. On reflection, I think it will be best because I get depressed now everytime I think about the trip. Stayhigh amd Snowflake, you're right, I think I just need the confidence and the tunnel will give it to me if my shoulder holds up. How long do people normally spend in the tunnel?

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It'd be pretty hard to wear a shoulder brace while jumping. The purpose of a brace is normally to keep a joint in a neutral position. It's rare that your shoulders are in anything resembling a neutral position when you're jumping, regardless of discipline. If the repair was done properly, you shouldn't need one; the labrum should be stronger than it was before.

I've had three shoulder surgeries - two on the left, one on the right - which included a Bankart's repair on each shoulder. (There was rotator cuff and biceps tendon damage, as well.) Each shoulder was immobilized for six weeks after each procedure, then I went through another 6-8 weeks in a sling, doing PT three times a week. Other than being grounded through the healing process, the surgeries haven't impacted my jumping. In fact, they hurt a hell of a lot less now than they used to, and I haven't had any more dislocations (other than that one snowboarding accident...).

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I am only going by my search results on this forum. It seems quite a few people have resorted to wearing a shoulder support and with good results. I couldn't believe how common an injury this is in skydiving; however it is very reassuring as I thought I was the only one with this problem!
So do the dislocations hurt less now because you are used to them more?
__________________________________________________

The only dislocation I've had since the third surgery happened snowboarding - and it hurt like hell. Although my shoulders sometimes hurt after a day of jumping - sometimes they hurt even when I'm not jumping - they've never felt unstable during freefall.

Have you talked with your surgeon about jumping? Both of my surgeons said that once the shoulders were healed, jumping should not be an issue. (One of them even asked me for a picture of me in freefall once I was back in the air.) There are motions you should avoid, but normal belly flying or freeflying positions should not put excessive stress on the joints.
May the (relative) wind take your troubles away...

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The only dislocation I've had since the third surgery happened snowboarding - and it hurt like hell. Although my shoulders sometimes hurt after a day of jumping - sometimes they hurt even when I'm not jumping - they've never felt unstable during freefall.

Have you talked with your surgeon about jumping? Both of my surgeons said that once the shoulders were healed, jumping should not be an issue. (One of them even asked me for a picture of me in freefall once I was back in the air.) There are motions you should avoid, but normal belly flying or freeflying positions should not put excessive stress on the joints.


Unfortunately, my surgeon is not a skydiver so I would not have thought he would have a fair appreciation of how much pressure is put on the shoulder during freefall. So what your saying is the wind blast during freefall is not too bad on the shoulders - that is reassuring. I am going to get over to airkix this weekend and I will report back. I just hope I won't be doing one fingered typing with my other arm in a MFin' sling!

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Neither of mine were jumpers either, but we talked a lot about shoulder physiology and what happens during a skydive. I felt comfortable that they were aware of what a shoulder would be subjected to. My last surgery was three years and a couple hundred jumps ago, and my shoulders seem to be holding up just fine.

Like I said, a repaired labrum is actually quite strong. The only things I've been told not to do are exercises that involve pulling weight down from above my head (like pull-ups), or pushing down if my arms are behind my torso (like a triceps dip). You shouldn't be doing either of those while jumping. Basically, if you're heads-up about your body position, your shoulders should be fine.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes!
May the (relative) wind take your troubles away...

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