Whats the best method for getting back from afar

[mrbiceps 0]

I jumped for the first time at a big dz in sydney yesterday. We jumped out of an xl. There was about 16 people on the load and i was the last one out as i was a single and the rest were groups. There was a fairly strong wind blowing. I was told to wait for 8 sec after the last group before i jumped. As there were 3 other groups before me it took them all a little time to all get organised before they jumped and i started noticing that i may have a long ride back to the dz. As i was falling i realised that i had no idea where i was, as i couldnt see the dz anywhere. Jump run was straight upwind with the dz behind us. I opened at about 4500 to give me some height to work out where i was. After opening i found the dz that was along way away. Maybe like over 5 klms (3-4 miles). i turned and powered towards the dz. There was nearly all tiger country between me and the dz and i was hoping that i could make it back. So my question is when so far upwind from the dz should i fly full power to cover the most distance or should i have used some brakes or risers?
Thanks guys and gals.
Oh yeah the wind was howling so i made it back okay using full power. Some others didnt get back though.

[billeisele 122]

plenty of advice has already been written on this topic, do a search

but in general, depending on your canopy, some amount of rear risers will greatly increases the amount of ground you can cover going downwind

I've seen folks that will just leave the brakes stowed but I do not recommend that, a recent thread discusses that issue, quick summary - get down low, release the brakes and find you have some type of line entanglement/knot/etc. problem, oops

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[timefighter 0]

This is a tricky question to answer because there is no answer that deals with each situation. It all depends on the wind strength and direction. It sounds like you made the right choice. Yesterday a friend of mine made it back from a long spot using rear risers traveling downwind. One thing I've learned is that if you think you really might not make it back, then don't fight it. Look out for the best alternative landing area and make a new plan for approach and landing. Off-landings are not that bad if you have a plan with enough time to execute it. It's way better than taking a chance that you might make it back and then suddenly having to make difficult maneuvers and low turns in a tight spot at the edge of the dz.
Get advice from a canopy piloting coach.

[shropshire 0]

Taxi.

Getting back to the DZ is NOT at the top of my list of landing priorities. Landing Safely IS.

Land with the canopy above your head, not in a turn

Avoid obstacles - Land in a clear and open area

FLARE evenly

Land into wind - If POSSIBLE

I'm a paraglider pilot too so landing off is the norm but I follow these 4 magic priorities rules for every flight/jump.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[rwieder 0]

Oldest trick i the book. "Let's jerk the new guy around. Haveing said that, have you not learned the fine art of spotting yet? I believe i'd find another DZ where the exerienced jumpers cared for the new jumpers a lot more than these folks seem to.

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Oh yeah the wind was howling so i made it back okay using full power. Some others didnt get back though

I don'tkow with 14 jumps you should have even been on that aircraft giving you experiemnce lebel. The odd thing here is you made it back, and some of the "Up Jumpesr" did not. Serves their ass right for mot helpimg you out.

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WTF is "Full Power?"

.

Learn to spot for yurself, observe where others are exiting the aircraft, they are using visual pionts on the ground, learn what they are, and use them for youself don''t turst ayone, Learn to spot for youself and be done with it. End Deal.

Best of luck mate.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[NickDG 23]

You did good pulling high, and being last out you could have pulled even higher. One thing more on the spotting thing however. I'm a firm believer that your twenty some odd dollars entitles you not only to the altitude you paid for, but also a decent spot.

Next time stop in the door and look. If you can't see the DZ within reach behind the aircraft you should get the pilot's attention and twirl your finger in the air. You are asking for a 180. If the pilot is any good at all he'll fly the 180 along a different track than the original jump run. But even then get out right over the DZ or a little bit on the downwind side to avoid anyone else that may have opened high on the first pass. Even still keep an eye out for canopies below you while in freefall.

If for someone reason the pilot refuses and starts down, walk back up front and buckle in. Once on the ground ask for your money back, then pack up your nylon, and go find a real drop zone.

It doesn't matter if you have 14 jumps or 1400 jumps following anyone out of airplane blindly, especially knowing you're last, and the guys in front of you were slow, is not acceptable. You did good for 14 jumps but there's no reason to put yourself into a position of hoping you make the DZ unless it's an aircraft emergency or something else out of your control.

NickD

[NWFlyer 2]

You've received some great advice about spotting and choosing safe out landing areas, but no one's really addressed your real question, and like others have said the truth is "it depends." One search term you might try to look for old threads is "long spot."

When I took Scott Miller's canopy course, one of the jumps he has us do is a "long spot" jump, where we exit a ways out (but with lots of safe landing areas between our exit point and the landing area) and experiment with various control inputs to see what works best for our canopies. Rear risers, quarter brakes, half brakes, deep brakes - these are the kind of drills you can do to see which gets you the most penetration. Of course, what works best is also going to vary not only by what canopy you're jumping, but also by whether you're running with the wind or fighting the wind. It's good to get to know your canopy before you *need* to use the control inputs. My Pilot glides well even in full flight, but when I need to get back from a long spot, I've found deep brakes works as well as rear risers, and on a 210, hanging on the toggles is much easier than on the rears.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[NickDG 23]

The bottom line to all that is the longer you can stay in the air the more ground you can cover . . .

NickD

[d123 1]

Talk to your instructors about this approach:

Face the DZ and use your nose. Close one eye and point the tip of your nose next to the landing zone. If you've closed the left eye the tip of your nose should be located left to the landing zone. Now hold that pose and watch what happens to the landing zone:
a) If the landing zone moves downward relative to your nose you're going to make it.
b) If the landing zone moves upward you're not making it back.
c) If the landing zone doesn't move you're not making it back safe.

Possible follow-ups for case b) & c) if you can read the wind:
#1 You are going downwind (wind in your back) Make yourself smaller, add half brake and redo the nose test. If you can make it hooray. If not add more brake and re-test. Still in case b) or c)? Then see #2
#2 for a slow upwind or really bad spot downwind. Make yourself smaller, add back risers and redo the nose test. Keep in mind that its a lot more difficult to hold the back risers for a long time compared with the toggles.
Still can't make it back bro? Well its time for plan B!

Usually it takes around 5-10 sec to see the movement.

Regards,
Jean-Arthur Deda.

P.S. It might be easier to just put a dot with a black marker on your goggles instead instead of using your nose.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[shropshire 0]

#1 wind is on your back -

Have you ever felt the wind on your back under a flying canopy? -

Your canopy "Knows" NOTHING about the wind - only RELATIVE wind. at any trim setting it will fly at the same AIRSPEED (in a lamina flow - i.e. no wind- gradients or turbulence) irrespective of the the Meteo Wind.
Your GROUND Speed will change - for sure.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[d123 1]

Its just another way of saying downwind or tailwind. It has nothing to do with what one feels under canopy.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[WeakMindedFool 0]

What NickDG said. If I've got the wind at my back I get BIG and go into deep breaks. If into the wind Rears and get small. What I learned when I was new, and it has saved me from myself several times, was that if there was a question in my mind about weather I could make it back or not, I should bust a 360... thereby assuring that I couldn't get back. Then I do what I should have been doing the whole time and look for a good out. Flying yourself into a corner to save yourself some walk time is bad.

Just my $0.02...
PEACE!
Jason

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

[shropshire 0]

That's cool then but wasn't too clear.




It's tricky to be sure the wind direction at altitude. On the paraglider I use a GPS otherwise it's an educated guess.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[d123 1]

I agree with you and I see that it could create confusion

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[shropshire 0]

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[pilotdave 0]

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If I've got the wind at my back I get BIG and go into deep breaks.

Getting big to turn your body into a sail has to be one of the top 10 myths that are passed on in skydiving. Getting small is the only way to go no matter which way the wind is going. Getting big adds drag... that doesn't help you in ANY way.

Dave

[Chubba 0]

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Getting big to turn your body into a sail has to be one of the top 10 myths that are passed on in skydiving. Getting small is the only way to go no matter which way the wind is going. Getting big adds drag... that doesn't help you in ANY way.

+1

Even if you have the wind behind you, if you have foward speed (I'm hoping you're flying foward ) the relative wind is still going against you and making yourself big will add drag.

I had a long spot on Saturday, I had to fly slightly crosswind/downwind for the whole 2500ft just to reach the airport (wrong end though, sucks having to walk 2 miles back to hangar).

It just felt better using the left rear riser to hold my heading, it felt smoother and seemed like it was gliding more then when I used the left toggle.

Beats me I got back safely though.

[pilotdave 0]

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It just felt better using the left rear riser to hold my heading, it felt smoother and seemed like it was gliding more then when I used the left toggle.

You shouldn't need to hold a riser or toggle to keep a heading. You might have to crab to get where you want, but that just means choosing a heading that's not quite in the direction you want to go. But wind won't make the canopy turn, so there's no need to keep holding a riser.

Personally, I'm a deep brakes kinda guy when I need to get back from a long spot upwind of the landing area. It's a lot easier than holding rear risers and in my experience (with my canopy) works better... especially in high wind. Into the wind, I don't use brakes or risers.

Dave

[billvon 2,391]

In all cases, get small and loosen your chest strap if you can do so safely. Kill your slider and get it down - again, if you can do so safely.

If you are upwind, keep moderately deep brakes and float on back. Another alternative is spreading your rear risers with your hands. I don't recommend pulling on rear risers because it takes a lot of effort, it's hard to hold for a long time and it introduces distortion in the canopy that can negate some of the benefits of the shallower trim angle.

If you are downwind, maintain full flight. Front risers can help you if you are actually stationary or are backing up; they will get you down into more moderate winds more quickly where you can make some headway.

[mrbiceps 0]

Thanks for the advice guys. It was pretty much all tiger counrty between me and the drop zone and no way was i going to go down in that. I figured that i would make a decision at 2000 that if i wasnt going to make it i would divert to the right and land in some dudes farm. There was alot of clear open space to my right. I would rather walk a mile than crawl a foot...

[slotperfect 7]

These comments are made with the assumption you are talking about a long spot situation where the wind is mostly at your back as you fly back to the DZ . . .

I used to use rear risers exclusively. I learned the "Accuracy Trick" from one of John LeBlanc's seminars in 1993 and have been using it since quite successfully. Then I took Scott Miller's canopy piloting course in 2004 . . . from that I learned that which technique is used (rear risers vs. deep brakes) really depends on the canopy and requires experimentation. Like Krisanne mentioned, we did two intentional long spot jumps - I used rear risers on the first and deep brakes on the second and was able to get MUCH more distance from using deep brakes. I have experimented with all of the canopies I fly and that is the case with all of them.

Rear risers require a lot of physical effort on bigger canopies, especially tandems, which have so much rear riser pressure it's a serious workout. Deep brakes requires no effort at all because you can hook your thumbs under some point on the harness (under the yoke at the top of the shoulders or under the chest strap) to take the load off your arms.

Lots of other good points made here as well. Great thread.

Arrive Safely

John

[Chubba 0]

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You shouldn't need to hold a riser or toggle to keep a heading. You might have to crab to get where you want, but that just means choosing a heading that's not quite in the direction you want to go. But wind won't make the canopy turn, so there's no need to keep holding a riser.

My bad, I guess I was being blown strongly crosswind and I just kept applying input to get where I wanted.

[billvon 2,391]

>I guess I was being blown strongly crosswind and I just kept applying input
>to get where I wanted.

Crosswinds blow you sideways but they don't turn you.

[AggieDave 6]

This is an old debate and there are a lot of opinions about a lot of things, but only you can decide what works best for your canopy at your wingloading in your conditions!

So give some brake input and see if you can move the "accuracy spot." Do the same with rears. Get small (think like flying on your belly). If you're having to fight that hard, though, to get back, then maybe you should just go ahead and pick a nice safe landing area and land off! Do this before its too late to choose a good safe spot.

In my general experience I've found that PD canopies tend to work the best on toggles and Icarus responded the best on rears. Aerodyne was kind of a toss up. Pisa worked best on rears for me (if anyone still jumps one of those canopies).

Go do a hop-n-pop from 5k, dump out the door and play with it. The time in the saddle and practice will do nothing but help you. Its fun too!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Chubba 0]

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Crosswinds blow you sideways but they don't turn you.

Yep, it's very clear now, new jumper perceptions are messing with my head.

It was actually a tracking dive with a friend who has 200 jumps, he said to me afterwards "I was pointing in the right direction and wanted you to follow", his heading was off line from the DZ but he landed back on target.

I just aimed straight for the DZ kept applying riser to stand in line with the landing area... which obviously didn't work out well

Pic attached, me in red, mate in blue... arrows for heading, crosses for where we actually landed.

Good thread, at least I'm learning