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Tandem question??

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I have a question about Tandems. Why is it that I am seeing more and more Tandem instructors do Butt landings. I recently overheard a Tandem Instructor doing the pre-jump training and what caught my attention to what he was teaching. He told the students that it is safer to land on your butt instead of standing it up.
What is missing from this practice is the fact that butt landing is much harder on the spine and pelvic areas, and it only takes one landing on a small rock to permanently disable a customer and/or the Tandem Instructor.
Later when there were no customers around, I asked the TI about it. He said that it keeps from breaking legs.
All I can say about that is that Legs heal and the person can lead a normal life, Backs don't do so well. All this being said, what about a tail-bone strike?
There will be no addressing the customers as "Bitches", "Morons" or "Retards"!

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Go get a tandem rating, and find out what works best for you and your student. You'll then be the PIC and be able to make that decision. ;)



I'm not asking that question to challenge anyone for doing that, it's just that of the landings I've seen, they appear to be harder landings than standing them up, so with my knowledge of physics, and my limited knowledge of the human anatomy and after showing a video to my chiropractor who's response was "Ouch, that had to hurt", It's just a question I felt needed to be brought up.
And you're right, I don't have the tandem rating yet, Plan to, but way back when I was a tandem student, My instructor found it unacceptable to butt land.
Who's right?
There will be no addressing the customers as "Bitches", "Morons" or "Retards"!

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Go get a tandem rating, and find out what works best for you and your student. You'll then be the PIC and be able to make that decision. ;)



I'm not asking that question to challenge anyone for doing that, it's just that of the landings I've seen, they appear to be harder landings than standing them up, so with my knowledge of physics, and my limited knowledge of the human anatomy and after showing a video to my chiropractor who's response was "Ouch, that had to hurt", It's just a question I felt needed to be brought up.
And you're right, I don't have the tandem rating yet, Plan to, but way back when I was a tandem student, My instructor found it unacceptable to butt land.
Who's right?

I'm not a TI myself, but I can see your point. Just don't see any reason to not stand it up.
Refuse to Lose!!!
Failure is NOT an option!
1800skyrideripoff.com
Nashvilleskydiving.org

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My instructor found it unacceptable to butt land.



Thanks for the laugh. I'd like to meet that guy......:D

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Who's right?



The person that is right, is the one that makes the safest decision so your able to walk away from that jump to jump again. ;)
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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A controlled butt slide without a hard butt landing will give a tandem pair the safest landing. All you need is a tandem student to put their legs down too early, catch and tumble the tandem pair head first to realize that.

A broken neck from a botched tandem landing is a hard price to pay for not doing a controlled slide!
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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I've yet to hurt a student or myself from sitting landings down. I have been hurt when students try to stand them up. Only 5000 or so tandems though, so I'm still figuring things out.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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I almost always do slide or sit landings even with perfect conditions. The way the harness is designed when under canopy the weight of the passenger is carried by the canopy. On the ground, the weight is born by the TI. When doing stand-up landings the weight transfers from the canopy to the back of the TI. The TI is usually standing straight up for a stand-up landing and the spine is compressed straight down. A slide or sit landing utilizes the lift of the canopy and allows a slower transition from the canopy to the TI. After a couple trips to the chiropractor I made the choice to usually slide or sit down. Of course, you also need to take the abilities of your passenger into account. Thats why its important to find out if they can lift their legs both before they make the jump and under canopy.

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From what I've always seen, if the TI selects a canopy large enough to give a soft landing, there's no need to use the forward motion and lift from the speed to slide in. I've seen TI's do hook turns and/or low turns to gain the speed, and often thought that it would only take to slip and the tandem burns in.
Besides that, their butts and rigs were stained and worn. Looks like a high cost on equipment to me from all the sliding and dragging on the ground. I'm not tandem rated, but I don't think I would want to pay for their cleaning and repair bill.
Refuse to Lose!!!
Failure is NOT an option!
1800skyrideripoff.com
Nashvilleskydiving.org

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I'm no TI but I personally think sliding in on the butt is safter than trying to stand up a landing.. For example the guy doesnt lift his legs up enough or is taller.. one wrong step and both of you go down..
Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

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From what I've always seen, it the TI selects a canopy large enough to give a soft landing, there's no need to use the forward motion and lift from the speed to slide in. I've seen TI's do hook turns and/or low turns to gain the speed, and often thought that it would only take to slip and the tandem burns in.
Besides that, their butts and rigs were stained and worn. Looks like a high cost on equipment to me from all the sliding and dragging on the ground. I'm not tandem rated, but I don't think I would want to pay for their cleaning and repair bill.



More wear and tear on the gear is still cheaper than a lawsuit from an injured/dead tandem passenger.

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Part of the motivation for sit/slide landings is the students' leg muscles.
Most students are so emotionally overwelmed that they suffer "jelly knees" after landing, which requires the TI to support their weight for thirty seconds or a minute after landing.
This also requires the TI to "balance" a student who is fumbling to stand up.
Far simpler and safer to plan on sitting down than risk pitching forward onto the student's face.

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I'm with Rob. I sit "almost all" of my tandems down now, I can do it softly and easily. ALSO I am 5' 6" (I used to be 5' 7" till Fritz hammered me in on a recurrency jump) and most every student hangs WAY below me. I have stood up quite a few who dragged me down because they couldn't/wouldn't support their own weight or were just too freakin' tall. So now, I sit most of them down and nobody gets hurt.........
Pete Draper,

Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right?

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I find it absolutely astounding that people that do not have a tandem rating, never preformed a tandem landing as an instructor find the need to chime in here. I may not be the most talented skydiver but I can say without a doubt landing a tandem canopy to a stand up landing in light to no wind conditions is one of the most challenging things to do well. The slide is the easiest and stress free way to land without issues or incendent. I will always slide in older customer's as it is in my opinion the safest way to land. I really find it interesting how many students stress the idea of standing up the landing (as one of the most important things about skydiving), after five years of doing tandems, I would say it seems to be one of the most stressed things by students. I also can say a bouched stand up landing looks much worse than a controled slide.
Kirk
He's dead Jim

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I did a butt landing for my very first tandem. My butt hit the ground so hard I wasn't even able to stand up. I don't recommend landing on your butt during landing. To this day I have little respect for that TM.

I'm glad that was my first and last tandem. Jumping solo, I never have to worry about that gain. If I do something stupid then its my own fault.

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I did a butt landing for my very first tandem. My butt hit the ground so hard I wasn't even able to stand up. I don't recommend landing on your butt during landing. To this day I have little respect for that TM.

I'm glad that was my first and last tandem. Jumping solo, I never have to worry about that gain. If I do something stupid then its my own fault.



I agree, My TI always stood them up. We ALWAYS had on target, very soft landings. He always selected a canopy that was large enough to carry the load and compensated for the wind and weather conditions. I've heard of a lot of TI's using the "One size fits all" approach instead of having multiple canopies.
Yeah, it does cost more to have multiple canopies, but that's what it takes to do it right. And you don't have to have a TI rating to know that.
I have talked to a couple of TI's since I was this thread start, and they both said that the idea of butt landing is nothing more that lazy TI's that don't want to carry the load and/or wear out their back.
The knees and legs will absorb the shock of landing if the proper canopy is used for the load. The same holds true for a solo rig.
If a jumper is knocked out, and is using lets say a 90sq. ft. canopy or smaller, what are his chances of survival without be able to hook turn before landing as compared to the same guy jumping a 250 or 300? The same for Tandem.
I'm sticking with the big rigs!
Refuse to Lose!!!
Failure is NOT an option!
1800skyrideripoff.com
Nashvilleskydiving.org

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I find it absolutely astounding that people that do not have a tandem rating, never preformed a tandem landing as an instructor find the need to chime in here.

Is that the only way you could justify your post?

Who cares if people that are replying have tandem ratings or not. Common sense goes a long way. Just because some people don't have the jump numbers does not make them totally oblivious.
With respect.. having a D license or 15,000 jumps or TI ratings whatever doesn't make you better than someone with an A, nor does it mean you never make mistakes either. Get off the pedistal and return to the earth with the rest of us.
Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

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I find it absolutely astounding that people that do not have a tandem rating, never preformed a tandem landing as an instructor find the need to chime in here.

Is that the only way you could justify your post?

Who cares if people that are replying have tandem ratings or not. Common sense goes a long way. Just because some people don't have the jump numbers does not make them totally oblivious.
With respect.. having a D license or 15,000 jumps or TI ratings whatever doesn't make you better than someone with an A, nor does it mean you never make mistakes either. Get off the pedistal and return to the earth with the rest of us.



You just said what I wanted to say, I guess I just tried to sugar coat it too damn much!
Preach on Brother! ;)

I think I want to re name you form Tuna-Salad to SPARKY! Why, because you have balls of steel that drag the ground! B|B|B|B|B|
Refuse to Lose!!!
Failure is NOT an option!
1800skyrideripoff.com
Nashvilleskydiving.org

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Is that the only way you could justify your post?



Or, maybe his experience as a tandem instructor justifies his post. For the instructors who want to stand the landing up all the time, more power to them. But I always laugh when they try in conditions that don't warrant a stand up landing and end up falling on their face or laying on the students back.

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Who cares if people that are replying have tandem ratings or not. Common sense goes a long way.



You are right, common sense does goes a long way. So does experience. When you have some AND you have your tandem rating with a couple thousand tandems, then go back and look at your post. See if you feel different.

DZJumper:
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I did a butt landing for my very first tandem. My butt hit the ground so hard I wasn't even able to stand up



Then your TI either caught some turbulence or didn't know how to do it properly. As many experienced TI's have already said, a well executed butt slide is the safest landing to do.

With my 2700 tandems, I will vote +1 with sliding in the landings.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

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Case by case. I've seen plenty of tandem instructors get picked up and slammed when they've stood up in winds and the catchers have missed the toogles. I brief my punters to expect to slide, but to be prepared to stand if the situation warrants it.
2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

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Who cares how many jumps I have. What has that got to do with that, when I was on the end of it and nearly didn't go back to skydiving because of that.

I am just saying what happened when we did the ass plant, err butt slide.

Granted I seen a lot of people do it really efficiently and I done one jumping solo. Very effective indeed when done right as mentioned earlier.

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