The Pay Scale, fair?

[hudsonderek 0]

So I just finished up working for a small cessna DZ this summer, as I look to my bank account I wondered how and why certain people get paid their certain rates in skydiving and what seems fair. Lets take a busy weekend and assume average pay for each person in their respective jobs. lets say that at a cessna DZ there are 80 tandems for the weekend, leaving 40 a day and 20 loads per day. in that weekend a tandem master would make $1,400 (40 tandems @$35/per jump), a packer would make $1,200 ($15/ per packjob) and a the pilot would make $800 ($10 per load) lets ignore manifest for the time being. It seems odd to me that the pilot is the least paid out of the whole bunch, a dropzone can still function with one tandem master and no packer, but it ceases to operate without a pilot. to be a packer it requires no specific education (12 year olds could learn to do it in a two days) to be a tandem master requires a little more financial commitment and time, but as soon as one becomes proficient at jumping you can start to make money flying camera and subsidize your 500 jumps with that. but the pilot, the pilot is required to have a commercial rating which on average cost anywhere from $25,000 to $40,000. if you try to argue "well the tandem instructor takes much more risk", I'll agree their job has inherent risks, but being a jump pilot is no walk in the park. Generally as a jump pilot you are flying old airplanes with high time engines, the airframes have been close to redline airspeed by many inexperienced pilots and therefore probably overstressed. you're often taking off past max gross weight with a rearward CG, and lets face it, the maintenance is often neglected. seems pretty risky to me, ohh and one more thing, people are jumping out out your fucking airplane with big inflatable things that can easily get caught on the tail. so why is it that someone taking a huge risk, having lots of time money and energy invested in getting where they are, treated like the low person on the totem pole? please explain to me how this makes sense? I agree every person is required to have a functioning dropzone, I just feel that pilots seem to get the shit end of the stick.

[billvon 2,392]

>It seems odd to me that the pilot is the least paid out of the whole bunch . . .

That's because they get both pay and airtime. For people going on to other flying jobs, both are valuable. Whereas experience in packing doesn't go to anything other than - packing.

BTW $15 a pack job is a VERY VERY good rate for a packer. $5 to $10 is much more common.

[Rover 9]

Think of the hours of flying time that they don't have to pay for. I jump at a small Cessna DZ and most of the pilots that have flown for us have used it as a stepping stone to better and grander things.

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[hudsonderek 0]

tandems packjobs 5 to 10$? not from what i've seen. airtime is valuable, but at the same time some pilots don't need the flight time, and again, you MUST have a pilot to have a dropzone and claiming you are "helping them out by providing flight time so theyu can move onto other jobs" is strictly bullshit. Pilots get taken advantage of, big time.

[billvon 2,392]

>airtime is valuable, but at the same time some pilots don't need the flight time . . .

Sure, some don't. They are free to be packers and make more money, if they prefer. The ones that do need airtime may choose to fly for peanuts, thereby making it possible in the future to get a better job.

Case in point - I once did an internship at a company that paid peanuts. I think if you added it up, it would have been around $6500 a year. I did it for the experience. It was worth it; now I make a lot more than that, partly because of the experience I gathered over the years.

[ematteo 0]

Pilots who don't need to build hours don't fly DZ jobs (at least not purely for the pay). Pilots who get benefit from the hours set the pay scale. That is the way a market economy works, dude.

What is the hourly wet rental cost of a turbine airplane, for purposes of building hours?

E

[hudsonderek 0]

I'm talking flying pistons, C-182's/ C-206's. to fly a turbine at a DZ most DZO's require at least 1,000 hours and time in type, that's not far off from part 135 minimums and with those you can get a lot of jobs flying turbines

[stayhigh 2]

where is this small cessna dz that pays $15 bucks for tandem??? Packers usually get 8-12 for tandem and it generates 1099...

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[CSpenceFLY 1]

If you're not happy with the pay don't do that job.

[AggieDave 6]

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What is the hourly wet rental cost of a turbine airplane, for purposes of building hours?

Seeing how a high performance aircraft such as a C182 costs around $100 an hour to rent, the benefit of the time logged is a big deal. Even the FAA says its a big deal, one of the reasons that a commercial ticket is needed.

Now, look at around $1000 an hour for a turbine...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Jumpah 0]

You asked for someone to explain why it makes sense. I'm not sure I'll be able to do that, but I'll say this:

Its useless to compare wages between different job types in the interest of figuring out what is 'fair' or not. My first job in my industry paid $9/hour and I ran around days and many weekends keeping computers going. I had a 4-year college degree, was $40k in debt and the receptionist made more money than me. A year later the receptionist was making about the same money, but I had enough experience to take a new job at a different company making twice as much. Eventually I had the time, experience, and skills to start my own consulting company.

You knew the metrics before signing up for the job. Now identify your goals if you haven't already and figure out what you need to do to make them happen. I made far more than $9 an hour on that first job when I look at the overall effect it has had on my life and career.

[repcool 2]

I think you're in it for a career, so the time you build now gets you into another position which pays a bit more, then once you get those hours you get to go to another level and earn more. Repeat this process till you retire and you will likely come out on top.

I don't know where a TI or Packer can go in a career to continue to earn more?

I am not saying either is right or wrong, but some jobs pay more up front and stay about the same, some pay less because they are an investment in the long term.

Personally I love aviation, I used to own a decathlon. If I could fly the 206 at our DZ for FREE I would do it right now, then you would have something to complain about!

[diablopilot 2]

"Fair" is where you can get Cotton Candy, Caramel Apples, and can see the Blue Ribbon livestock.

Welcome to skydiving.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[grimmie 173]

I drive the ladder truck, cut holes in roofs over burning buildings, search for victims etc.

The rookie works his ass off at the station, works his ass off at a call, makes me coffee every AM and gets tested on his skills every 3 months while on probation.

The Battalion Chief stands outside and talks on the radio at a call and drives around in an air conditioned Suburban.

THE Chief sits at his air conditioned desk, talks on the phone and does lunch with the Mayor.

Guess who makes the most $$$$??????

Damn! life just isn't fair...

[Andy9o8 0]

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If you're not happy with the pay don't do that job.

Hey. Stop under-engineering the issue.

[riggerrob 558]

That is the way a market economy works, dude.

........................................................................

Think supply-and-demand.

Thousands want to become airline pilots, so they are willing to work for next-to-nothing at entry-level jobs.

Tandem instructors are somewhere in the middle, with regional shortages.
North American DZs may be able to pay $30 per tandem, but other countries (e.g. New Zealand) are so short of TIs that pay starts at $50 and climbs to almost triple that with hand-cam.

At the other end of the scale, no-one "wants" a career packing, so DZOs have to pay packers a real wage.

[Fast 0]

Agreed. It's supply and demand. There aren't any people anywhere who would be willing to show up at my DZ and pack tandems (pretty damn labor intensive hard work) for less than $10 a packjob. If there were, we would be using them!

Tandem masters are few and far between and lets get the record straight. It costs between $15,000 and $25,000 to get the experience, equipment and training to be a tandem instructor. Add another $3000 to that if the guy tries to shoot video first. Both jobs require 500 jumps minimum + training.

The argument that a skydiver is having fun while getting the experience doesn't make much sense either since most pilots are flying because they think it's really damn cool. If you don't, stop trying to fly airplanes for a living, you should enjoy what you do.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[jeremy_o 0]

Our pilots don't get paid at all...nor instructors, coaches, manifest "staff", etc. We do it for the love of the sport and give our training back to the newbies for what it cost us Wish more places operated like that.

http://planetskydive.net/ - An online aggregation of skydiver's blogs.

[riggerrob 558]

Yes, I used to donate my time to students, back during the 1980s.
I would haul S/L or IAD students all day and as long as I could get on the sunset ten-way, I was happy.
That was back in the days when clubs dominated the sport and clubs depended upon volunteer labour to serve students.
Financially, most clubs were happy if they could pay all their bills and afford a decent Christmas party.
But that was before tandems and turbines and .... and there was no money to be made, demanding dollars would have sounded petty.

[billvon 2,392]

>I would haul S/L or IAD students all day and as long as I could get on
>the sunset ten-way, I was happy.

Yeah, we worked that way too in the early 90s. I'd pack all day, or dress students, or talk them down, maybe make one jump. At the end of the day our "pay" always seemed to be just enough to let us go and buy some beer for everyone . . .

[Reginald 0]

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Lets take a busy weekend and assume average pay for each person in their respective jobs. lets say that at a cessna DZ there are 80 tandems for the weekend, leaving 40 a day and 20 loads per day. in that weekend a tandem master would make $1,400 (40 tandems @$35/per jump), a packer would make $1,200 ($15/ per packjob) and a the pilot would make $800 ($10 per load) lets ignore manifest for the time being. It seems odd to me that the pilot is the least paid out of the whole bunch, . . . I just feel that pilots seem to get the shit end of the stick.

Okay, it sure looks like you fudged these numbers to make your point.

Let me make a few modifications to them.

First, no TM is going to be able to make 20 jumps a day. 10 is just about the upper limit so you say a TM would make $1,400 but in reality that is cut in half to $700.

Second the packers likely get $10 per tandem rig and there are almost certainly two of them so that becomes $800 if it’s one packer and $400 if it’s two.

And the pilot is the one person physically capable of flying all 80 loads so even at the paltry rate of $10 per load he is now the highest paid person at $800. And just as a note, the pilots at our DZ get much more than $10 per load.

So, it is likely in your own case that the pilot is the highest paid person.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[diablopilot 2]

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First, no TM is going to be able to make 20 jumps a day.

Care to make a wager on that? I've done 19 in a day, twice this year.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[livendive 8]

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First, no TM is going to be able to make 20 jumps a day.

Care to make a wager on that? I've done 19 in a day, twice this year.

Out of a 182?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[diablopilot 2]

No, but I'm betting that the pilot in the above scenario isn't flying all 80 loads in a 182 either.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[livendive 8]

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No, but I'm betting that the pilot in the above scenario isn't flying all 80 loads in a 182 either.

True...unless of course it was jet powered.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)