interesting sutiation - try'n'buy + cutaway.

[MarkM 0]

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Obviously a reserve is in the rig to be used when needed, however it is not intended to be used frequently. Therefore the number of jumps on a reserve decreases the value of the reserve, the same as the age of the equipment.

I don't think the design of reserves is all that much different than mains as far as construction and materials. I'd guess that it'd take hundreds of jumps for wear and tear to set in, but I'd love to hear if I was wrong.

[likestojump 3]

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Obviously a reserve is in the rig to be used when needed, however it is not intended to be used frequently. Therefore the number of jumps on a reserve decreases the value of the reserve, the same as the age of the equipment.

I don't think the design of reserves is all that much different than mains as far as construction and materials. I'd guess that it'd take hundreds of jumps for wear and tear to set in, but I'd love to hear if I was wrong.

FACTS :
1)The design of the reserve is such that the manufacturer (PD) feels that it needs to inspect it every 40 packjobs OR 25 rides, whichever comes first.
2)F111 canopies wear out ALOT faster than ZP (PDR is all F111)
3)Talking to some people who test jumped PDRs, they said they really felt the different in flare/flight after as few as 40 terminal openings
4) more of survey based assumption, but for the purpose of the argument, I consider it valid. : a few people in this thread indicated that they would be put off by the reserve having jumps on it - thus the presence of ride(s) will narrow the potential consumer market - I perceive that as loss of value

[billvon 2,396]

>I'd guess that it'd take hundreds of jumps for wear and tear to set in, but I'd
>love to hear if I was wrong.

A few issues:

1) It's not jumps so much as pack jobs. They do more damage than the actual deployment.

2) F111 canopies can last around a thousand jumps if they are loaded lightly. If they are loaded heavily (as most reserves are nowadays) then they will last only a few hundred jumps. This isn't because the loading wears them faster, but because you need a "better" (less porous) parachute to land at higher loadings.

3) When lifetime of a reserve is specified (as in PD) 40 repacks is about the limit before it has to be re-inspected by the factory.

[MarkM 0]

Just because the manufacturer wants them inspected every X jumps or pack jobs doesn't mean they're wearing out any faster. It's just prudence. Sort of like having a fire extinguisher inspected every X days.

But it's sure true a lot of people want low jump/packed reserves. I think this is much more psychological than anything else though.

[airtwardo 6]

FACTS :
1)The design of the reserve is such that the manufacturer (PD) feels that it needs to inspect it every 40 packjobs OR 25 rides, whichever comes first.
>>>I would be curious as to the number of reserves they actually 'retire' following said inspections.
Could it be they 'feel the need' because it lowers possible liability and makes them some extra $?

And speaking of liability, what if the damn thing hadn't worked?
I can see the lawyers now, you sent some poor monkey a rig that didn't fit with a reserve that had never been tested!

2)F111 canopies wear out ALOT faster than ZP (PDR is all F111)
>>>no question about it, however I have several F-111 canopies that have 5-600 jumps on them that although don't perform as brand new are still safe and reliable.
3)Talking to some people who test jumped PDRs, they said they really felt the different in flare/flight after as few as 40 terminal openings
>>>Notice the difference, you bet. Then again I noticed the difference on my Zpo main after 20 jumps....still safe and reliable just 'different' than when it came in the box. Will I stop jumping it because it's getting broken in??

These things aren't made of tissue paper people, they are made to be used, taken care of...but used.
I'd much rather have a 1:1 loaded reserve with 20 jumps on it that's been cared for, than a 2:1 with no jumps that sits in a hot car trunk 1/2 the summer.


4) more of survey based assumption, but for the purpose of the argument, I consider it valid. : a few people in this thread indicated that they would be put off by the reserve having jumps on it - thus the presence of ride(s) will narrow the potential consumer market - I perceive that as loss of value

>>>and I would tend to concur with you on that to a point, 0 jumps is a more attractive 'sales' pitch than more than zero jumps.

In the 'real' world is it less safe?? Hell no.

If I were in this situation with you, me as the 'buyer' I would throw ya 40-50 bucks to shut ya up about it and hopefully alleviate any hard feelings...it's a small community we have and to me it's better to spend a few bucks and not have someone pissed thinking I screwed them.

If I were the 'seller' in this situation, I certainly wouldn't turn down the offer of some money all things considered, but if not, I wouldn't lose any freakin' sleep over it either...I'd chalk it up to lesson learned and make it clear the next time with I expect to happen.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[likestojump 3]

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Just because the manufacturer wants them inspected every X jumps or pack jobs doesn't mean they're wearing out any faster. It's just prudence. Sort of like having a fire extinguisher inspected every X days.

But it's sure true a lot of people want low jump/packed reserves. I think this is much more psychological than anything else though.

I agree with you on all points. Here's what I think about BOTH of your statements :

I am sure the percentage of reserves that get retired by PD is minimal. But the concern that such manufacturer policy builds is what devalues the canopy aka the perceived value.

[billvon 2,396]

>But the concern that such manufacturer policy builds is what devalues the
>canopy aka the perceived value.

?? Not from what I have seen. Small PD reserves (used) are selling for far more than used Micro Raven reserves because of their design; they tend to result in fewer broken bones on landing. And yet the Micro Ravens have no inspection limits.

[likestojump 3]

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>But the concern that such manufacturer policy builds is what devalues the
>canopy aka the perceived value.

?? Not from what I have seen. Small PD reserves (used) are selling for far more than used Micro Raven reserves because of their design; they tend to result in fewer broken bones on landing. And yet the Micro Ravens have no inspection limits.

I am not arguing that. But you and I are talking about different things. Think apples to apples, not apples to oranges :)

I am looking at NEW/unused PDR vs used and/or ridden PDR. Basically the population for my statement is ALL PDR reserves, and the sample are/is the PDR's that have been ridden. I am saying that for SOME people if a person were buying a PDR reserve, they would perceive one that has no rides to have a higher value. And I am basing that conclusion upon conversations with MANY people and some responses to this thread.

Please note that I am not making a blanket statement - this does not apply to ALL situations, ALL people, or ALL reserves (PD or not).

Wow, this is actually an interesting and stimulating discussion

[billvon 2,396]

> I am saying that for SOME people if a person were buying a PDR reserve,
>they would perceive one that has no rides to have a higher value.

Ah, I see what you mean.

However, I would suggest that that is true with ANY reserve. Any reserve with 20 repacks is going to be at about the same level of wear. The difference with PD reserves is that you know it's been repacked 20 times. With, say, a Tempo, it might have been repacked 40 times, but there's no way for the buyer to know that, so he might buy it assuming it has 10 repacks.

So from the perspective of a buyer not knowing what state the reserve is in, I could see how the 40-repack Tempo might fetch a higher price than the 20-repack PD.

[likestojump 3]

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> I am saying that for SOME people if a person were buying a PDR reserve,
>they would perceive one that has no rides to have a higher value.

Ah, I see what you mean.

However, I would suggest that that is true with ANY reserve. Any reserve with 20 repacks is going to be at about the same level of wear. The difference with PD reserves is that you know it's been repacked 20 times. With, say, a Tempo, it might have been repacked 40 times, but there's no way for the buyer to know that, so he might buy it assuming it has 10 repacks.

So from the perspective of a buyer not knowing what state the reserve is in, I could see how the 40-repack Tempo might fetch a higher price than the 20-repack PD.

you are extrapolating my statement Bill :)

I was merely making statements about the PDR as that is what was ridden in the situation that started this thread. I am also trying to stay with facts and not hypothetical situations. Another valid conclusion is that as PD have a higher MSRP than other reserves, thus they have a higher resale value all other things being the same. A certain psychographic of "PD snobs" also has an effect aswell :) Of course, yet another fact irrelevant to the current thread :)

In my experience the most repacks I have seen was 7 on a square and 13 on a round, but I doubt there's many people bold enough to represent a 40 jump reserve as having 20 or less rides. This of course is neither here or there...

[billvon 2,396]

>but I doubt there's many people bold enough to represent a 40 jump
>reserve as having 20 or less rides.

It actually happens quite a lot on older rigs. (Not intentionally.) You buy a reserve from someone; he remembers it had about 10 repacks on it. He originally bought it from the wife of another jumper who died in a car crash, and his wife couldn't remember whether he got it new or not. But it was a good deal.

How many total repacks are on that reserve? That's the problem.

[indyz 1]

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thank you for a good answer.

what if the reserve had a DOM of 2007 with 3 repacks and no rides ? Do you think that the addition of a ride would make a difference in your decision ?

Wouldn't bother me at all. Unless there were extenuating circumstances, it's just a year old reserve with 4 repacks to me. Then again, I seem to be less concerned about these sort of things than a lot of jumpers. One of my Tempos has 6 jumps on it and I have no intention of selling it; at the same time, I know people who won't buy a reserve that has been used at all.

[billvon 2,396]

>at the same time, I know people who won't buy a reserve that has been used at all.

I don't get this. Both main and reserve parachutes occasionally come with defects; I know several reserves with defects that were caught at assembly, and I know of at least two mains that were jumped with defects that were not caught until later packjobs.

A deployment and successful landing of a reserve means, at the very least, that the parachute is capable of opening and landing you safely. That's not a negative in my book.

[JanuszPS 0]

Agree,
but there are other aspect which should be take into account:
what was the condition of the jump(s) including all aspects (i.e. speed of deployment(s), weather conditions wet/rain/dirt/desert etc, WL of the lucky man and others which I cannot imagine or remember to count).
In my opinion a reserve which opens above a heavy guy with WL 1.6+ at terminal should not be compared to the situation when light guy with WL 1.0 opens his reserve at subterminal. Both were used once or numbers of times but the conditions in one aspect only were significantly different.
The argument of a used reserve for me is the same as buying a car which must have at least 10 000 km (miles, whichever) to be sure that it works ok.
Just an opinion. I'm not a rigger.
Regards
Janusz
Edit: for me buying a used reserve includes some additional level of uncertainty as I do not know the above facts and I need fully trust to the seller. Just my point of view.
Should I buy a fired Cypres to be sure that it'll work ok when needed? I don't think so.

Personally I have a second hand rig but a brand new reserve and I do everything to sell it unused (good packing pays back).

Back to Poland... back home.

[billvon 2,396]

>In my opinion a reserve which opens above a heavy guy with WL 1.6+ at
>terminal should not be compared to the situation when light guy with WL
>1.0 opens his reserve at subterminal.

Why do you think those situations are significantly different? In my mind the primary wear factors on a parachute, excepting damage, are:

-UV exposure (about the same for both)
-repacks/handling (same for both)
-amount of dust attracted during usage (both inside container and when deployed)

Indeed, it seems that in places that rent parachutes, the larger canopies wear out much faster than the small ones. This is likely due to the more abuse the larger ones take (newer jumpers tend to jump larger canopies and land in the dirt/mud/bushes more often) - but I see no sign that the heavier loadings are damaging to the canopies.

[JanuszPS 0]

Usually you do not know the owner, and the only thing which is saying anything additional about the owner and the gear (except the look and easy to spot wear and tear) is the paper work.

I'm talking about uncertainty which is the deciding factor from the buyer point of view (not always).

I do not discuss with the theory or fact that terminal vs subterminal openings make no different to the reserve canopy as I have no that knowledge, experience or simply test data to say what is the truth.
But for me the simple thing is: usually never deployed reserve has not been exposed to any additional abuse except the usual packing.
I'm clear and neat person when we consider a gear owner, but someone else might not necessary be careful about his rig including the reserve after deploy and landing.
That mainly what I mean.
Personally as an engineer I do think that both deployed and brand new reserve are equal in therms of reliability or performance, but nevertheless I would prefer to buy the second one.

Regards
Janusz

Back to Poland... back home.

[AggieDave 6]

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It actually happens quite a lot on older rigs. (Not intentionally.) You buy a reserve from someone; he remembers it had about 10 repacks on it. He originally bought it from the wife of another jumper who died in a car crash, and his wife couldn't remember whether he got it new or not. But it was a good deal.

How many total repacks are on that reserve? That's the problem.

Never mind that packjobs and rides are marked on the reserve with a PD product. You know what you have once you look at the label on the tail, assuming that the rigger was honest.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[bodypilot1 0]

If the rig didn't fit as well as they would have like, enough for them NOT to buy it, then they shouldn't have jumped it. If they have a mal and have to use YOUR reserve, then hell yes they should have to pay extra for using it. Would one expect to take money off of a main, per jump, if they were buying it? Would someone think of paying the same price for a reserve that had 5 uses on it vs zero? Or offer less because of how many times it was used?

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[billvon 2,396]

>Never mind that packjobs and rides are marked on the reserve with a PD product.

Right. And to me that's an advantage.

[AggieDave 6]

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>Never mind that packjobs and rides are marked on the reserve with a PD product.

Right. And to me that's an advantage.

Same here! I respect that PD wants to see their reserves set limits. For them its really not about money, since the sport market isn't the money-maker for PD (think military), its all about a quality product and product safety.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[MarkM 0]

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The argument of a used reserve for me is the same as buying a car which must have at least 10 000 km (miles, whichever) to be sure that it works ok.

It'd be more like buying a car that has 1km on it.

If reserves are built so flimsy that jumping them a couple times is "abuse", then we should be using mains as reserves since they're built so much better.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Had the potential buyer decided against buying before jumping? I've tried several rigs and ground fit really dosen't tell much. Rigs that fit "perfectly" were quite painful under canopy, and my current rig doesn't fit all that well on the ground, but I could hang under canopy almost indefinitlely. Short of disconnecting the main and hanging from the ceiling there isn't any way to tell without jumping.
However, I think you ARE owed a repack by the rigger of your choice.
And just to toss a little more fuel on the fire: Knowing that the reserve works as attached to that rig would be comforting to ME. Yes, it was test jumped, but knowing that it is hooked up correctly and flies ok on that particular rig would offset any wear and tear on the reserve.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Genn 0]

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...After Inspection they determined that the harness is not that great of a fit, but decided to jump it anyways. A subsequent crappy main packjob resulted in a chop (their assessment, no mine). Now they say since the harness does not fit as well as they would like, they don't want to buy the rig.

I don't realy see what the big deal is. Second hand rigs aren't a custom fit. It may not have been "that great of a fit", but it may have been close. Close enough for this person to be comfortable enough to "try'n'buy"- as per your agreement.

The person wasn't happy after the 'try' and doesn't want to buy. You should get the rig back with a repack (of your choice) and a bottle to your rigger.

If you sell gear on a try and buy basis, there will always be a chance of a cutaway on any jump. Since there was no damage to the gear, they are not "responsible for anything that's not regular wear and tear"-per your agreement.