interesting sutiation - try'n'buy + cutaway.

[Andy9o8 2]

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I would have thought that the independent rigger would be telling the erstwhile buyer this. Seems logical: you break it, you bought it.

Just my natural caution. In my business, I've seen zillions of disputes arise because "logical", "common sense", "common knowledge" or "standard procedure" wasn't reduced to writing. In other words, if there's an out to exploit, someone will exploit it. Putting it in writing generally reduces the potential outs. At least that's the idea.

[NickDG 23]

Maybe if I knew the person and their ability and I was there on the DZ I'd let someone actually jump a rig I was selling. But I would never send someone I didn't know a packed ready to jump rig in the mail.

I don't hold with the try before you buy thing anyway, inspect yes, but it's not a used car you get to drive around the block to see if you like it. It's up to the buyer to know what they're looking for.

I won't even go for that "send it to my rigger crap" or that "escrow" baloney. If you don't trust me go look somewhere else for all I care. I've sold plenty a gear that way and never had a problem with a buyer . . .

NickD

[dragon2 2]

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I don't hold with the try before you buy thing anyway

Really? I bought (and sold) most of my stuff sight-unseen, but I did test jump a canopy I didn't know (fusion) this year to see if i liked it for camera work (soft openings are important for me). I would also ALWAYS test-jump a vengeance, sabre 1 or sabre 2 before buying as there they can vary wildly in how they open. I just gave a sabre 120 to a girl I vaguely know, to jump at her home DZ, and mail it back or pay me depending on how she liked it, luckily she liked

You can't always know what you want beforehand, and a rig fits different when you are jumping it than on the ground. If it's in-date, I'd let a potential buyer jump it if (s)he made it to my DZ or if I know the jumper personally. I've sent wingsuits over to the UK to see if they fit before even paying, but the DZ was known. Not on my DZ and/or unknown jumpers, yeah you'll have to trust me...

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[DangerRoo 0]

this coming from a newbie also looking for a container....

should pay for the repack/inspection and shipping cost back to you and get it done asap

(I.C.D#2 VP)
""I'm good with my purple penis straw" ~sky mama

[indyz 1]

My personal opinion:
1. The conditions were "try before you buy." Since he had no intention of buying, he shouldn't have done any trying. You wouldn't be out of line to charge a reasonable rental fee, but I wouldn't count on getting it.
2. He needs to return the gear in the same condition he got it. That means repacked. If you don't trust his rigger, ask him to return the rig unpacked with a check made out to your rigger for the cost of a repack.
3. When I price out a reserve I'm mostly looking at the age, number of repacks, and any damage that has been repaired. I'm not concerned about the number of jumps, unless it is a lot. I wouldn't ask for, or expect, any compensation for that.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I would just want the money for the repack. I would want my rigger to do the repack.

[DSE 5]

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I am still thankful for your answer, to extrapolate - what if the original in-date packjob was sealed by a very well known and respected master rigger, would YOU still have your rigger do and I&R ?

would you buy a used car without checking under the hood or the spare even if it had an ASE certification on it?
I'd sure want to see the reserve (although I'd prefer to not ride it to view it) and I'd pay for a repack if I didn't buy the rig. But that's all I'd be willing to do. If you really pushed me, I might give you 10.00 for the main and reserve ride value. I'd rather buy you a couple beers and call it even?

[likestojump 3]

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Your rig saved his life. He owes you a repack.

Agreed.
That being said, every try-n-buy, just like every jump, is by definition a potential reserve ride. To avoid disputes from any ambiguity (real or perceived), responsibility for reserve re-pack is best set down in writing in advance.

I smell somebody with a JD.
I in fact do have that spelled out. I state that buyer "is responsible for any and all costs that are not part of regular wear and tear. To include all costs associated with acts negligence"

[likestojump 3]

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... what if the original in-date packjob was sealed by a very well known and respected master rigger, would YOU still have your rigger do and I&R ?

Absolutely. You seem to be having a difficult time believing that people feel this way, even after several have written the same thing. Someone may jump a reserve packed by your favorite rigger, but to buy it unseen is another story.

Dear kkeenan, this is your second reply to me, and you are 2 for 2 in ASSUMING what I think and feel. Please don't assume.

In fact, I don't have a difficult time believing that one may want to get an inspection. I am merely looking for data points.

[Andy9o8 2]

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Your rig saved his life. He owes you a repack.

Agreed.
That being said, every try-n-buy, just like every jump, is by definition a potential reserve ride. To avoid disputes from any ambiguity (real or perceived), responsibility for reserve re-pack is best set down in writing in advance.

I smell somebody with a JD.
I in fact do have that spelled out. I state that buyer "is responsible for any and all costs that are not part of regular wear and tear. To include all costs associated with acts negligence"

I'm really not trying to argue with you. "Spelled out" means spelled out. Your language is fine, but does not spell out the issue we're discussing. So all I'm saying is that it doesn't specifically provide for repacks in the event of a reserve activation, and thus it is an ambiguity re: that issue - no matter how "obvious" you think the more general langage may make it.

Written is generally less ambiguous than not written; and if written, more specific language usually has less explotable ambiguity than more general language, is my point.

If I were your JD, I'd have your documents specifically state something like "in the event of an activation of the reserve canopy, the borrower will be responsible for the cost of repacking said reserve by a certified rigger,"... or some kind of language to that general effect. That's all. (I discuss this in post #26, above.)

[likestojump 3]

Dear Rehmwa, I will dissect your post into a few pieces :

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if he didn't offer the cost of the reserve repack, then he's as cheap as you, but I bet he did.....

oh really ? And why are you calling me cheap ? Do you know me ? Did I state evidence of any action that I took that would classify me as cheap in your perception? Why don't you stop reading what I did not write. Thank you.

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there's no loss of value with a single jump on a reserve - that's nuts - did he damage the reserve in any way? did the main land in power lines or on a barbed wire fence? did the reserve pilot chute get bent? those all matter, but a jump cycle? nuts

he owes you a repack, that's all, a whole repack and no pro-rated pack dollars either - preferably a repack at your rigger, not his though.

Thank you. I do think stating "i think" would make you sound a lot nicer. You are talking about perceptions and values, not about solid material facts. Unless of course you have legal evidence to justify that. And we move on to :

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if you're really going to whine about it, you could ask for a single jump rental fee? and that would be pretty petty too

WHO IS WHINING ? I asked for opinions, I did not ask for people to take pity on me. I did not even state how happy or upset I was with the situations. You are assuming. again....

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He should send your rigger a bottle of liquor though for the save - that the only thing here that makes sense to me.

And this part I agree with 100%.

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tell me, how do you have the value of the rig so PERFECTLY dialed in that a single jump on one of the canopies will affect the sell price? Considering the variation of sale prices on used rigs, that's very impressive

Tell me, where did I say that I have the value of a rig PERFECTLY dialed in ? When I mention the reserve ride possibly being worth $$$ - I never put a value on it. As far as being dialed into the used market - I have sold way over 100 rigs in the last 2 years, and over 300 canopies. I do think that I have a pretty good gauge on the market. Some posters in this thread have bought from me.

Cya

[likestojump 3]

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Your rig saved his life. He owes you a repack.

Agreed.
That being said, every try-n-buy, just like every jump, is by definition a potential reserve ride. To avoid disputes from any ambiguity (real or perceived), responsibility for reserve re-pack is best set down in writing in advance.

I smell somebody with a JD.
I in fact do have that spelled out. I state that buyer "is responsible for any and all costs that are not part of regular wear and tear. To include all costs associated with acts negligence"

I'm really not trying to argue with you. "Spelled out" means spelled out. Your language is fine, but does not spell out the issue we're discussing. So all I'm saying is that it doesn't specifically provide for repacks in the event of a reserve activation, and thus it is an ambiguity re: that issue - no matter how "obvious" you thing the more general langage may make it.

If I were your JD, I'd have your documents specifically state something like "in the event of an activation of the reserve canopy, the borrower will be responsible for the cost of repacking said reserve by a certified rigger,"... or some kind of language to that general effect. That's all. (I discuss this in post #26, above.)

I prematurely hit "reply". I agree that any ambiguity is best attacked by being mentioned by the name in the contract. I wasn't trying to imply that I disagree with you, I was just trying to say that I have thought of that. Of course, I am always refining the docs :)

[Andy9o8 2]

Pay the girl on your way out, please.

[likestojump 3]

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My personal opinion:
1. The conditions were "try before you buy." Since he had no intention of buying, he shouldn't have done any trying. You wouldn't be out of line to charge a reasonable rental fee, but I wouldn't count on getting it.
2. He needs to return the gear in the same condition he got it. That means repacked. If you don't trust his rigger, ask him to return the rig unpacked with a check made out to your rigger for the cost of a repack.
3. When I price out a reserve I'm mostly looking at the age, number of repacks, and any damage that has been repaired. I'm not concerned about the number of jumps, unless it is a lot. I wouldn't ask for, or expect, any compensation for that.

thank you for a good answer.

what if the reserve had a DOM of 2007 with 3 repacks and no rides ? Do you think that the addition of a ride would make a difference in your decision ?

[michalm21 0]

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what if the reserve had a DOM of 2007 with 3 repacks and no rides ? Do you think that the addition of a ride would make a difference in your decision ?

I would know that it worked
3 repacks and 0 rides vs 4 repacks and 1 ride would not make any substantial difference to me. I would expect to pay (or sell) the same
/my 2 cents

[chuckakers 422]

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Do you think it's reasonable to ask them to get the reserve repacked and inspected and add some extra $$$ on top as the chop was obviously due to packer negligence, and not gear malfunction ?

I don't know about tacking anything on, but you should be made whole on this deal. Whatever it cost you for shipping, reserve repack, etc,, should be repaid pronto.

If he doesn't feel the same way, gun him down in cold blood and take the beer money out his wallet. No wait, that's not right. Please forgive me. Take the whiskey money out of his wallet.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[DBCOOPER 5]

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I would just want the money for the repack. I would want my rigger to do the repack.

+1

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[pirana 0]

Repack by potential buyer's rigger, or cash for repack by owner's rigger (owner's choice), plus a bottle for the save.

No charge for the jump.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[JanuszPS 0]

Just in my opinion,
the OP has 100% rights to ask for the repack and even some small compensation for the reserve ride.

If I buy the reserve I would try to get with 0 rides.

If that was me trying the rig I would offer something myself, unless the rig description was far far away from the reality and that just pissed me of.

regards
Janusz

Back to Poland... back home.

[Joellercoaster 6]

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If I buy the reserve I would try to get with 0 rides.

Out of curiosity... why?

I've only bought one secondhand reserve, but I was (possibly irrationally) comforted by knowing it had a ride on it.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[JanuszPS 0]

because I prefer this. Everything, including the choice of a new and a second-hand rig is based on our (at least mine) personal preferences.

As I mentioned in my post, "in my opinion", the same as per "my preferences".

Obviously a reserve is in the rig to be used when needed, however it is not intended to be used frequently. Therefore the number of jumps on a reserve decreases the value of the reserve, the same as the age of the equipment.
Please note that I do not say that the reserve is less reliable or has a significant value loss, but the number of rides on a reserve has some impact on the price and the general opinion about the rig and it's owner.
This is just my opinion and the way which I look at this problem.
Janusz

Back to Poland... back home.

[superwoman8433 0]

personally I would prefer the one with zero rides

[hackish 8]

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personally I would prefer the one with zero rides

A reserve with 1 ride on it is probably better trusted than one with 0 in the highly unlikely event that there was a manufacturer defect.

I don't think that a reserve ride or two has a real effect on the value of a rig. Now my reserve has 2 patches in it because of some experimentation the previous owner did for an article he was writing. That probably reduces the value slightly but at the end of the day it was repaired by PD and is still perfectly airworthy.

I'll add another vote to the fact the potential buyer should pay the rigger of your choice for a repack.

-Michael

[airtwardo 7]

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personally I would prefer the one with zero rides

A reserve with 1 ride on it is probably better trusted than one with 0 in the highly unlikely event that there was a manufacturer defect.

I don't think that a reserve ride or two has a real effect on the value of a rig. Now my reserve has 2 patches in it because of some experimentation the previous owner did for an article he was writing. That probably reduces the value slightly but at the end of the day it was repaired by PD and is still perfectly airworthy.

I'll add another vote to the fact the potential buyer should pay the rigger of your choice for a repack.

-Michael

It's my understanding that my reserve was test jumped my the manufacturer...it came with one jump on it.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Broke 0]

Shit I have one sub terminal deployment on my reserve watch out it might blow up on me.

At least I know it works

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192