matt_f_001 0 #1 October 7, 2008 Had a friend go in for his second AFF jump this weekend. He was scheduled to go in at noon and waited over five hours before giving up and going home (he lives 90 mins from the dz). The dropzone was busy with a ton of tandems going up all day so he kept getting put off. My question is this-- why jerk around AFF students and repeat customers just for one tandem? There is no reason why he couldn't have been fit in. Tandems might make more money per jump but from a purely financial perspective, getting him in the air quickly makes more money for them in the long run. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LuckyMcSwervy 0 #2 October 7, 2008 I'm curious what DZ you're speaking of.Always be kinder than you feel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #3 October 7, 2008 Maybe it was too windy for him to jump? Or cloud cover too low? Did he talk to manifest/instructors and ask WHY he wasn't going up? ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matt_f_001 0 #4 October 7, 2008 Conditions were perfect all day. They had a CASA and an Otter running all day. He and the instructor that had done some of his ground training repeatedly tried to get him on a load and manifest could only tell him to wait a few more hours... pretty lame. Would have been understandable if he had not been scheduled to jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NovaTTT 2 #5 October 7, 2008 Quote Had a friend go in for his second AFF jump this weekend. He was scheduled to go in at noon and waited over five hours before giving up and going home (he lives 90 mins from the dz). The dropzone was busy with a ton of tandems going up all day so he kept getting put off. "Going in" is a phrase that refers to the sport death of a skydiver. Avoid using it when discussing skydiving, when at the DZ, when around skydivers, and probably on DZdotcom. .02 (edited to add emoticon)"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #6 October 7, 2008 I assume there was a boogie going on if there was a CASA there... Maybe that complicated things? It costs a LOT for a dropzone to bring in a CASA... maybe they were especially worried about making money that day to pay the bills... moreso than usual. If your story is accurate (student and instructors were ready to go all day), I wouldn't be too happy either. But I'm guessing it's a bit more complicated. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #7 October 7, 2008 If a DZ is busy enough that they are running a CASA and an Otter with just tandems then they might not have had the instructors/video if requested to spare for a load or two at this point of the season. Doing a tandem is a fairly quick process if needed provided the student is already briefed and geared up. Its quite possible for a TM to do 15-20 work jumps a day in this environment. To do a CAT B needs about half an hour of ground prep at least, possibly an hour with gear up time too. 1 AFF is 3-5 tandem loads that could have flown. If your friend was at the DZ did he do any of the ground skills that he could have knocked out like learning to pack? Learning to spot? Learning to change out closing loops? Weight and Balance issues of planes? There are hours worth of ground items that can be covered with a coach, a rigger or a pilot. If the DZ is so busy that they don't have any of those free to work with a student then the DZ is busier then every other DZ in the US or your friend wasn't trying too hard to get other things signed off.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrTool 0 #8 October 7, 2008 Quote Quote Had a friend go in for his second AFF jump this weekend. He was scheduled to go in at noon and waited over five hours before giving up and going home (he lives 90 mins from the dz). The dropzone was busy with a ton of tandems going up all day so he kept getting put off. "Going in" is a phrase that refers to the sport death of a skydiver. Avoid using it when discussing skydiving, when at the DZ, when around skydivers, and probably on DZdotcom. .02 (edited to add emoticon) Lighten up francis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,732 #9 October 7, 2008 >My question is this-- why jerk around AFF students and repeat customers >just for one tandem? Because 1) the tandems may have been waiting just as long as he was 2) you can do 2-3 tandems for every AFF 3) AFF's are not big money makers even in the long run. DZ's are better off catering to tandems than to experienced jumpers from a purely financial sense. (i.e. money made per jump.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matt_f_001 0 #10 October 7, 2008 Yah, I get what you are saying but it is still a little off when the tandem can walk right in, suit up, and go when your scheduled AFF students (at least 5) get the runaround. It is one thing to say you will probably be too busy but another to schedule them with no chance of getting to jump. ...and NovaTTT, thanks for the lesson in skydiving/BASE terminology but I am already fully aware of what "going in" means Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #11 October 7, 2008 Quote It costs a LOT for a dropzone to bring in a CASA... Last quote I heard from a couple of months ago is that it costs $24,000 to have a CASA show up for the weekend. That's money spent no matter what the plane does, so that Fayard doesn't loose money from pulling a plane away from a military contract. I'm surprised that a DZ would even try to conduct AFF jumps during a boogie like that!--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #12 October 7, 2008 Your friend needs to ask manifest why he didn't get to jump. We on the Internet have no idea what was really going on in the office/DZ. IMO, it's bad customer service to not get anyone up without explaining to them what is going on. Edit to add: If manifest doesn't give your friend an answer, I'd ask to speak to the owner/manager.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #13 October 7, 2008 QuoteQuote It costs a LOT for a dropzone to bring in a CASA... Last quote I heard from a couple of months ago is that it costs $24,000 to have a CASA show up for the weekend. That's money spent no matter what the plane does, so that Fayard doesn't loose money from pulling a plane away from a military contract. I think you ment $4000. I'm surprised that a DZ would even try to conduct AFF jumps during a boogie like that! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,462 #14 October 7, 2008 Quote >My question is this-- why jerk around AFF students and repeat customers >just for one tandem? Because ... ...AFF's are not big money makers even in the long run. DZ's are better off catering to tandems than to experienced jumpers from a purely financial sense. (i.e. money made per jump.) I hate to say it, but that's true (was gonna put "right", but that didn't fit) I've seen and heard of regular jumpers getting bumped repeatedly off loads for tandems - some were walk-in tandems that were put on the schedule at the last minute. A friend of mine sat at a DZ all day and could only get 2 jumps in because of this. It sucks, but unfortunately, the tandems subsidize the regular operations and are going to get priority."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 4 #15 October 7, 2008 FWIW, profit margins on AFF students (assuming main side only) is approximately the same as a tandem (depending on how operation is run). I can think of several reasons an AFF might be bumped to the side for tandems; winds, instructor availability, time between loads, needed briefing/de-briefing time, other traffic in the air...we try to keep our AFFs happening on Sundays or later day Saturdays to help provide the students with the utmost in attention. But...DZ's do vary quite a bit... either way...the student should have been informed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #16 October 7, 2008 Nope, I spoke exactly what I was told from some friends of mine that had wanted to bring a CASA in for a boogie in Texas back in August. They were told $24k or the plane doesn't fly to Texas.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #17 October 7, 2008 Paul must be tired of flying boogies or he had no planes close. The minimum has been $4000. for as long as I remember. If it had been $24k no one would have ever seen a Casa at Dublin much less two. I'm crazy but not quite that far gone. I can't think of any boogie that could or would pay that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #18 October 7, 2008 When was the last time you asked for a price? Apparently $24k is what he looses in military contracts for a weekend if the plane flies to a boogie. Basically I don't think he cares to fly civilian jumpers ever again...or until the military cash cow is slaughtered for its sweat tender marbleized beef.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,265 #19 October 7, 2008 Hi matt, Quote He was scheduled to go in at noon Almost every up-poster has taken the side of the dz or has come with the 'whys' that this guy did not get to jump. Some may actually be valid. Bottom line: the guy had a jump scheduled. Anyone wonder why we are losing students? JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matt_f_001 0 #20 October 8, 2008 Quote Hi matt, Quote He was scheduled to go in at noon Almost every up-poster has taken the side of the dz or has come with the 'whys' that this guy did not get to jump. Some may actually be valid. Bottom line: the guy had a jump scheduled. Anyone wonder why we are losing students? JerryBaumchen That's just the thing. I was fortunate enough to find a dz where they gave me 100% of their attention during my AFF. But when you don't get that I can see why people get frustrated, especially when they don't live close to the dz and then spend the whole day being told, "maybe in an hour or two". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #21 October 8, 2008 Quote Bottom line: the guy had a jump scheduled. Anyone wonder why we are losing students? Amen. Now if the winds were up or the clouds were low, tell the guy. But don't leave them hanging. Nothing drags on like waiting at the DZ to finally make a jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
taylor.freefall 0 #22 October 8, 2008 "AFF's are not big money makers even in the long run." Aren't most AFF students former tandem jumpers? And then go onto A license? I can't help but believe the AFF student is a great money spinner. Add to that the money spent in the shop - suit, altimeter, helmet etc etc. I think as well as looking after the new customers it's also important to look after the existing customers - definitely from a long term money point of view? ALL customers should be catered for, no? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kawisixer01 0 #23 October 8, 2008 I did my aff at a DZ with two 182's and spent ALOT of time sitting around waiting for tandems to get finished or get in between classes etc. To me it always seemed like tandems took priority no matter what. There were many times I was extremely frustrated and felt like quiting but had already paid in full for the full course. Unfortunately it gave me a bad enough view on the sport that I would have quit if i hadn't prepaid. People can say "but tandems bring in more $$" but I dunno, I have brought out alot of people to do tandems with me that I wouldn't have brought if I had quit jumping. So if I woulda quit because of being snubbed thats alot of money they cut themselves out of too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gato 0 #24 October 8, 2008 Caution: Noob approaching. Just my noob experience, but I found that my chances of getting on a load increased significantly the more hours I spent at the DZ. It shows a level of dedication greater than those who always showed up in the middle of the day and were only willing to stay an hour or two. I know your friend's jump was scheduled, but it's entirely possible that he could have jumped earlier in the day, before promises were made to the walk-in tandems. I'm not trying to make excuses for the DZ, but skydiving sometimes reminds me of some martial arts classes I've taken - some of which started at 5:15 am, some at 10:00 pm. At least part of the reasoning behind that type of thing is to see who's really dedicated to the process. Or not. T.I.N.S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeregrineFalcon 0 #25 October 8, 2008 Kawisixer touches on a point here. Did your friend pre-pay? I'm not saying that's definitely a reason for being bumped so often, but you never know. It's bad practice, though, because an AFF student not only pays more money for the whole course, but he also may buy equipment and is more likely to refer tandem jumpers and other AFFers than the average 1-time tandem. Has anyone here ever slipped a tip to manifest to get on a load? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites