Smallish Canopy for Beginner

[FlyinBrian87 0]

Hey guys, Just wondering what the smallest canopy you would recommend for a 180lb 5'10'' A Licensed Jumper with 25 jumps. The smallest i have jumped was a 200 at Skydive New England. My Landings are 100% there. How do you guys think a Sabre2 170 would work out for me? Im a commercial pilot too so i know a bunch about how flying works. I know landing will all happen faster and i will have much more forward drive. It will also be my first time jumping a Zero P rather than those student hybrid ZP f-111, but is a 170 TOO small for me? Just over the 1:1 wing loading.

Dont cry because its over...Smile because it happened!

[AllisonH 0]

Is 180 your weight with or without gear on? Remember that gear in that size range adds around 25 pounds to your weight. What do your instructors recommend you look at?

[pilotdave 0]

Your wingloading on a 170 would be over 1.2. Don't forget to account for the weight of all your gear and clothes. That's a hefty wingloading for a new jumper. Talk to your instructors and see what size canopy they recommend. I'd be willing to bet they'll say 190 or bigger.

Why do you want the smallest possible canopy?

Dave

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Im a commercial pilot too so i know a bunch about how flying works

So was Mike Gahan. One of the best stick and rudder pilots I've ever met. Well respected pilot.

He lived because it had been raining that week and the ground was softer. Broken pelvis, blown out knees, broken ribs, severed the tendons in his neck and had to be placed in a halo with many many surgeries.

So yup, enjoy your experiences from being a pilot, they don't translate as far as you think they do!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[davelepka 4]

Quote

Im a commercial pilot too so i know a bunch about how flying works.

You should be able to remember learning to make coordinated turns (center that ball) or even learning to taxi in a straight line. It didn't happen overnight, but you got it. Hell, now you could do those things in your sleep, all while maintaining radio contact, and digging around for a chart.

Canopy flight is the same way. Regardless of how much theory you know, you need the 'stick time' to build in the muscle memory and reflexes to be able to handle a faster canopy.

Remeber, there are no go-arounds or missed approaches in skydiving. You're landing, and you're landing right now, like it or not. Equip yourself accordingly.

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

see a recent discussion of this very same topic.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3368197#3368197

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[councilman24 36]

Yes a 170 is TOO small.

For all of the reasons above. If you say your 180 your probably 210 plus out the door.

Your landings are 100%, as a student, under well controlled conditions with someone else looking out for you, landing on the DZ, in little traffic, etc. etc. Besides high performance turn done wrong it's the oddball landing situations that hurt you. And you probably haven't had ANY of those yet.

Go up too sizes to a 210 or bigger. Buy used, pass it off to the next newby. I don't know why people don't want to do that these days.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[JohnMitchell 14]

Don't ever jump a canopy you can land just fine most of the time. Jump one you can land just fine all of the time. That wingloading is too high for a novice. One screw up on one jump and you're going to get hurt.

[billvon 2,400]

>Just wondering what the smallest canopy you would recommend for a 180lb 5'10''
>A Licensed Jumper with 25 jumps. The smallest i have jumped was a 200 at
>Skydive New England.

Smallest I'd recommend would be a Pilot 188 or equivalent.

[hackish 8]

I'm not an instructor so I'll just describe my experience. We have similar weights. I started jumping a 170 sabre 2 at about 40 or so jumps. I did about 20 jumps on a Sabre 210 as a transition. I'd have to check my logbook to be sure. As with any canopy there exists a real chance that you could injure or kill yourself and if you don't know what you're doing on a sabre2 170 the chance is greater.

People here said I'd kill myself people at my local DZ said I'd be fine with a good briefing. Ultimately I did ok - took a canopy control course in Deland and it helped a lot as well. What I did was not for everyone and I'm sure there are lots with more talent than me.

What I suggest from my experience is to learn everything you can and get as much personal advice from instructors who know you. Get video of your landings everyone will be able to make suggestions so you can improve. Take a canopy control course. Ultimately it should be an instructor you get the advice from but who says you can't educate yourself.

People on the interweb don't know you from a hole in the ground so if you're crazy talented or an accident waiting to happen there is no way to know.

-Michael

[drdive 0]

I would take John Mitchell's and billvon's advice, and not the 99 jump wonder's advice

>>

The forums over the past couple of years are full of similar statements where people flew smaller than recommended canopies and got away with it. But quite a few also end up in the hospital and/or incident forum.

I am similar in weight, 170#, about 200# out the door. I got my pilot 188 at 40 jumps, used it until about 520, am trying out a 168, but will probably go back to the 188, for what it's worth.

Doc

"We saved your gear. Now you can sell it when you get out of the hospital and upsize!!" "K-Dub"

"

[tonyhays 86]

Seek out Mikey (S&TA) at the DZ next time you are there. He won't steer you wrong.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[ladydyver 0]

lots and lots of thread about this similar topic. things to consider:

can you land your current canopy down wind, cross wind, in a tight spot? Read Bill Von's Checklist ----When the shit hits the fan.... and it will eventually as it does to everyone..... which will be better for your experience level (at 25 jumps) ...wing loading of 1.2 or wingloading of 1.05? I am lightly loaded and had a funky landing this season...was out for the season because of it and have some nice new grafts in my knee to show for it. My wingloading was barely 1:1.....and at the time I was very current and had about 100 jumps on that canopy. Sometimes things happen, you make a choice and they aren't the right ones and you get hurt - which canopy will better protect you from a bad injury vs. a more serious injury vs. fatality? Canopy control courses are very helpful and can teach you a lot about your canopy - I also took it through Deland.
You could get a lot out of a 190/188 and learn a lot about canopy control and about jumping while being safer under a little bit bigger canopy. Ultimately, you will do what you want to do......but listen to those who know you, who have seen you fly, know about your skill level ect. There is a lot to consider with canopy flight... and you are lucky to have more knowledge than the average joe with your pilot history. the other thing to think about is with a different canopy type you will probably get a lot more out of it --- lots of people recommend sabre 2, pilots, spectres, and triathlons. I have had a spectre which I liked but had trouble figuring out the landings...and then switched to a pilot ---love it. demo what you can so that you can get what you really like and can see the pro's and cons of each canopy. Welcome to the sport and good luck!

DPH # 2
"I am not sure what you are suppose to do with that, but I don't think it is suppose to flop around like that." ~Skootz~
I have a strong regard for the rules.......doc!

[RaXz 0]

Why in such a hurry? With a lower wingloading you have more time to take care of things, and I presume that you can learn more when you've got extra time. It sucks to hope that you get the good reflexes instead of the bad ones like panic turns close to the ground when shit really hits the fan.

I will happily stay at my 0.97 WL, I don't have to get the extra speed to enjoy myself. And I really dislike comparing myself to others with lower jumpcounts that are at a much higher wingload.

Still, I haven't got a real painfull landing, and I don't have to scold at myself when laying in a hospital because I downsized to quickly.

[skittles_of_SDC 0]

Why even ask? Seems like you are in a hurry so just go small right off the bat. Walking is overrated anyway.

[FlyinBrian87 0]

Thanks for the concern and advice. Im not in any hurry to downsize and I am well aware of hazardous attitudes that many skydivers and pilots can get from time to time. Im not going to jump the canopy, its just sitting in my house was wondering if its a go or no go from experienced people. Im going to wait and buy a 200 or a 190. Just a little itchy to get jumping....but thanks for the advice.

Dont cry because its over...Smile because it happened!

[dragon2 0]

I'd sell it, a sabre2 170 should sell quick.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[millertime24 8]

Or keep it and then you will have it when you decide to downsize.

Muff #5048

[FlyinBrian87 0]

Thats the plan, Its in a marage container....Older 98 dom. But, its not mine ;)

Ha, have to save for a rig....my friend apparently sent me in the wrong direction in terms of safety, Thats why i posted here to get a broader oppinion....My instincts were telling me otherwise.

Dont cry because its over...Smile because it happened!

[AggieDave 6]

Whats the DOM on the Sabre2? If its one of the first generation canopies with the original design lineset, then I may have a friend that would like it.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skyshimas 0]

It looks like your WL would be a little high for the number of jumps you have now. What you could do is buy a rig which will accommodate 170 and borrow 190 canopy for a while or demo some 190's before you'r ready for 170. The problem is that your reserve most likely will be on a smaller size and you can't borrow biger reserve :). Well it's up to you what kind of risk you are willing to take.
Now people on these forums will scare you in every way they possibly can. Often you will get responses from someone( emphasis on someone) who "knows everything" who will never downsize in his life because has no idea how to land that piece of fabric over his head but has a good number of jumps...
Also... nobody is protected from injury no matter how many jumps you have on the canopy or in total.
That being said your chances a greater for that same reason because 170 is a fast canopy. If you want to be bashed to death ask questions here if you want honest answer ask questions at the drop zone ;)
now canopy nazis ATTACK!

[Glitch 0]

Loads of VALUABLE info already posted... well worth heading their advice. Something else to consider though... where do you want to be 2, 5, 20, 30+ years from now? I ask this because, like loads and loads of folks posting and not posting here, I pushed the envelope "sometimes" and dipped into the 'bucket of luck' a few times too many. I've haven't killed myself or anyone else, BUT... I've managed to tear an ACL, bulge 4 disks in my back (3 minor, 1 major), dislocate my L shoulder, and racked up more bumps, bruises, and sprains than most people have eaten McDonalds hamburgers. ALL from skydiving, or more appropriately 'landing a skydiving canopy'... (never got hurt jumping for Uncle Sam, so I'm not counting the stretch marks in my crotch btw ).

I guess the point I'm trying to make is simply, it's not worth the wear and tear on your body by down sizing before your REALLY ready (in both skills and attitude!). The sky will always be there, so don't rush it. Learn from other peoples mistakes, your not gonna live long enuff to make em all yourself.

*Disclaimer: My opinion only, YMMV (prolly less milage if your not careful)

Randomly f'n thingies up since before I was born...

[TerminatorSRT4 0]

well as you can see by my jump number I'm nowhere near experienced...but I don't understand why everyone around the same number of jumps as me is wanting so desperately to get as small a canopy as possible. I'm imagining it'll take me a minimum of 100 jumps just to be comfortable on a canopy and another 100 or more to get proficient.

I weigh 185ish out the door and have been jumping a Manta 220 and I'm going to buy a Silhouette 210 for my first canopy, there's no reason to rush to something smaller until you've experienced just about every possible situation to be thrown your way, just my 2 cents though...

[Chubba 0]

The 170 is definitely too small for your weight especially when going to a zero-p semi-elliptical design.

I got a few friends that jump Sabre2's/Safire2/Pilots 190's in your weight range, they're definitely not docile canopies and will hurt you when you make mistakes. So make sure you talk with an instructor or canopy coach when moving to these designs.

I jump a Sabre2 170, but I'm 30lbs lighter then you... and even then, I would have been happy flying a 190 and I'm actually regretting it, because bad situations are popping up quite often and these Sabre2's react VERY differently.

[skyshimas 0]

Just my thoughts: people have different goals and what they like in this sport. I could give up free falling in a heart beat just to be able to do hnp's. New jumpers don't understand it.Thinking that in 200jumps you will get in every possible bad situation is naive... if you do get in a lot of risky situations all the time maybe you should stop and think for a minute "what am i doing wrong?" you=everyone nothing personal.