Freeflying too early?

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

I saw his other post. I suspect troll because...

1) Freeflying while wearing a camera at 12 jumps,
2) Doing this at Raeford
3) No profile information entered.

Whoever was flying that camera appeared to have taken no more than about 3 - 4 seconds before exiting after the group before him. What kind of exit separation is that? And then he probably backslides all over the place, in God knows what direction(s) relative to the jump run. So not only does he endanger himself, he endangers others.

[I3uller 0]

I definatly appreciate all the advice here. The coach thing is very important I know, but if I can't get one and still want to dive what are some things I can do in solo belly flying that would help me out besides just maintaining a heading and checking my altitude? It seems like without a coach there isn't much to gain by just belly flying the whole way down. As for the camera, I understand the part where he said that you fly different with the camera. However, I use it to show me what I'm doing wrong. Like the last guy said I only gave about 4 seconds of seperation on that video and I never would have even thought about that if I hadn't had it on video. Now I can take a look at it and say "Oh, I jumped about a second too early back there so I'll be sure to correct that next time and count off my seperation in the future." I think its a great training aid for my diving.

[PhreeZone 15]

Its a horrible training aid, you start to worry about what the camera records and not the skydive. Talk to Tony or Kate about this. I can not believe the school or any of the instructors knows that you are doing this.

There is a reason the USPA says to have 200 jumps prior to jumping camera.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Adriandavies 0]

Quote

As for the camera, I understand the part where he said that you fly different with the camera. However, I use it to show me what I'm doing wrong. Like the last guy said I only gave about 4 seconds of seperation on that video and I never would have even thought about that if I hadn't had it on video.

You should not need a video to be aware of exit separation! If you are that unaware of something as fundamental as this when you are in the plane then what else are you missing? You've only just finished learning the very basics of skydiving so you should be refining what you learnt during your course rather than screaming around the sky and putting yourself and other people in a potentially hazardous position. If you are free flying you could back slide into another group because you are not aware of your forward or backward movement. You could cork and pop up and find yourself too close to someone else.

As for the camera the silhouette at the end of your video seems to show your small bullet cam sticking out prominently from your helmet which can create a snag hazard. Have you thought what would happen if your lines snagged it on deployment? Also how much time and thought do you put into thinking about the camera when gearing up or on jump run? Is it on, is it pointing in the right direction, is the battery OK, are the wires secure? How much is this distracting you from the task in hand i.e. making a safe skydive?

Raeford also seems to be a fairly big DZ so I am very surprised that there is no one there who can do some basic RW 2 ways with you in order to build on your basic skills. I know from my experience that it sometimes takes some persistence and patience in order to get help but it will be worth it. Lastly having looked at their listing on this website they organise tunnel sessions. That would be the perfect environment for you to learn both RW and FF skills before you put them into practice in the air.

[JohnDeere 0]

I have seen 2 really scary things from newer FFrs this year. I exited a 2 way after tracking off and deploying, i was about to grab my toggle's when the a guy that exited after us Solo FF and "just wanted to try some FF"...He snivled past me only 20 feet away from me! I nicelly went to him and asked him how his dive went, "it went ok". I asked if he had seen me on opening and he said no

Another was another 2 way FF i was on but after deployment I looked around to see where the other FFer was, and i seen another FFer that exited after us open 100 Ft above the guy i was jumping with When talking to him he was "trying some headdownAnd i nicely told him he needs to make sure and not go down jump run. And preferably jump with someone more expierenced for guidence

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[Andy_Copland 0]

Pull low for safety

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[JohnDeere 0]

Thanks for the advice

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[shropshire 0]

TW@

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[kefran 0]

what you could do now on your belly will be useful later when you'll be skilled enough to discover freeflying : front flips, back flips, barrel rolls ...

all those "basics" will help you to learn how to make good transitions, how to get your stability back once you'll have lost it (and it will happen trust me !)

just make sure you're not bypassing steps : it can kill you and others on your load.

cheers !

--------------------------------------------------
I never used 2 rocks to start a fire ... this is called evolution !

[shropshire 0]

I agree with you...

I think that someone needs to take this chap in hand, have a chat an bring him on safely. Keeness should never be stifled, but encouraged (safely) and pointed in the right direction.

Meanwhile, he can always leave the a/c first (certainly before me!!)

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[I3uller 0]

Update: Today I went out to the DZ and as usual asked for a coach but today I actually got one! Definitely a great experience with the coach. First jump was a 10 second track, 180, 10 sec track back and 2 separate docks with the coach. Everything went without a hitch and afterwards my coach (9 year D licensed guy) said my jump was great and my flying and control in particular was really good. Jump two was him exiting first and me chasing to dock twice. I fall very slow and couldn't arch down to him so I did a head down dive right to him arched out to the belly and did 3 docks. Again he commented on the flying being very good. He told me that right when he was thinking that I should go head down I was already putting my arms back and diving down so he was really stoked on that one and he had no doubts on taking me to do my A license check dive. Check dive went really smooth, albeit a 3 way opened a lot higher than expected so we had to open higher accordingly but the canopy ride was good and I landed about a meter from my chosen target. Best accuracy I've had yet...I mean the chute fell on top of the target panel. Having a coach to judge my movement in the air was a huge help and it settled some of my nerves about tracking all over the place without wanting to etc. I think that my previous attempt at freeflying helped me out a ton when it come to the coach jumps and maintaining my decent speed etc. Now that I know the danger that I could pose to other jumpers though I will be making sure to do it the right way. I just had never been told about the dangers of moving up or down the jump run and hadn't thought about it due to my inexperience. All that's left is get 10 more jumps and do a pro pack class tomorrow morning and I've got my A license. As for the freeflying I was curious how guys that do solo FF know if they are tracking up or down the jump run? Especially guys just learning and starting out with it? Do they just jump with an experienced guy and use them as a reference? I'm also confused about the person that talked about my helmet camera catching my lines being a safety issue. What about the guys that have 8 pounds of camera equipment strapped to their heads? I figure a thumb sized camera attached by velcro is much safer than a huge Camcorder attached to the side of your head along with an uncased DSLR camera on top. I imagine if my risers or lines catch my helmet camera it will just be ripped off the velcro and hang by the cord. Am I missing something?

[dragon2 0]

You are missing ALOT about camera flying. Since that has all been covered here before, both in this thread and in the FAQ and tons of threads in the camera forum, you either do not read or do not listen or do not comprehend. Which is it?

About FF and jumprun, you first need to know where jumprun IS on each and every jump, and you need to be able to hold a heading. What you do is you face 90o to jumprun then practice your sit (or tracking) for a few seconds at most then you stop, turn 180o so you face 90o to jumprun again and practice again for a few seconds at most, repeat.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[JohnDeere 0]

Dragon gave very good advice....to add to that it is best to jump with a good FFer as a referace, and if you are jumping solo FF then give the group in front of you atleast a couple extras secound of seperation, and tell the group behind you to give you a couple exra secounds becuase you are learning to FF. Untill you have atleast 100 plus FF jumps you will not be good at the body position to know that you are not moving. Thats 100 for sit and 100 for head down. Please be safe! And untill you become good at FF i would not go on more than a 2 way!

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[I3uller 0]

Quote

Dragon gave very good advice....to add to that it is best to jump with a good FFer as a referace, and if you are jumping solo FF then give the group in front of you atleast a couple extras secound of seperation, and tell the group behind you to give you a couple exra secounds becuase you are learning to FF. Untill you have atleast 100 plus FF jumps you will not be good at the body position to know that you are not moving. Thats 100 for sit and 100 for head down. Please be safe! And untill you become good at FF i would not go on more than a 2 way!

Haha yea I think the last thing anyone wants is somebody trying FF in a group and flying all over the place like a rogue bouncy ball.

[I3uller 0]

Quote

You are missing ALOT about camera flying. Since that has all been covered here before, both in this thread and in the FAQ and tons of threads in the camera forum, you either do not read or do not listen or do not comprehend. Which is it?

About FF and jumprun, you first need to know where jumprun IS on each and every jump, and you need to be able to hold a heading. What you do is you face 90o to jumprun then practice your sit (or tracking) for a few seconds at most then you stop, turn 180o so you face 90o to jumprun again and practice again for a few seconds at most, repeat.

From what I understand is that you shouldn't fly a camera due to the distraction of it. Mine I just start before I even get on the plane and forget about it. If you don't have the mental control and can't just forget about the camera then I fully agree you shouldn't jump with one until you are far more experienced. I just turn it on and completely forget its even there. I'm not trying to film anybody and not trying to do anything with it....its just there. The camera doesn't come into my mind at all during the jump so I don't see how it would be a distraction.

[tbrown 26]

Whether you want to become a freeflyer or not, you need belly skills. I'm a belly flyer from the old days and one reason I don't jump on hybrids anymore is that the freeflyers either can't get to the base in the first place, or if they do they haven't got a clue about how to dock without slamming the base and taking it out. I got tired of taking slammer hits from freeflyers that I just don't get on belly loads. Getting beat up hurts and it's dangerous. It's all about learning CONTROL.

I'll probably take a lot of shit for having said this, but it's the god's honest truth. I KNOW there are plenty of ACCOMPLISHED freefliers who can dock gracefully with zero momentum, but that's only because they took the time to learn their belly skills first.

Too many kids are skidding around around on their butts and thinking they're freeflying. It ain't so. They're not doing themselves, or anyone else any favors. And too many dropzones aren't providing the kind of belly coaching and load organizing that NEEDS to be done. They're just running a tandem mill and producing a generation of clueless butt skidders. So when you hear belly flyers talking ominously about "the dark side", that's what we're talking about.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[ladydyver 0]

I am glad to hear that your jumps today went so well and that you were able to get some coach jumps in.

Your right the velcro might just rip off but if it doesn't you could end up with a potential neck injury and a main that is a big mess. I don't fly camera so won't comment any further about it.

Regardless, try and find someone to mentor you for your freeflying and don't give up on the RW stuff, it is a lot of fun when you start doing formation stuff. I love 4 way stuff ---- sometimes it is a big shit show, and sometimes it just is really nice and easy. Enjoy the sky and good luck.

DPH # 2
"I am not sure what you are suppose to do with that, but I don't think it is suppose to flop around like that." ~Skootz~
I have a strong regard for the rules.......doc!

[I3uller 0]

Quote

I am glad to hear that your jumps today went so well and that you were able to get some coach jumps in.

Your right the velcro might just rip off but if it doesn't you could end up with a potential neck injury and a main that is a big mess. I don't fly camera so won't comment any further about it.

Regardless, try and find someone to mentor you for your freeflying and don't give up on the RW stuff, it is a lot of fun when you start doing formation stuff. I love 4 way stuff ---- sometimes it is a big shit show, and sometimes it just is really nice and easy. Enjoy the sky and good luck.

Ya I actually did have a really good time just doing belly RW with my coach today. Since I've done that stuff with the coach and got my A license check dive signed off should I be able to start jumping some 2 way RW with other experienced jumpers or stay with the coach for a while longer? I'd like to just be able to pair up with someone thats going up anyways instead of buying another ticket.

[ladydyver 0]

Quote

Quote

I am glad to hear that your jumps today went so well and that you were able to get some coach jumps in.

Your right the velcro might just rip off but if it doesn't you could end up with a potential neck injury and a main that is a big mess. I don't fly camera so won't comment any further about it.

Regardless, try and find someone to mentor you for your freeflying and don't give up on the RW stuff, it is a lot of fun when you start doing formation stuff. I love 4 way stuff ---- sometimes it is a big shit show, and sometimes it just is really nice and easy. Enjoy the sky and good luck.

Ya I actually did have a really good time just doing belly RW with my coach today. Since I've done that stuff with the coach and got my A license check dive signed off should I be able to start jumping some 2 way RW with other experienced jumpers or stay with the coach for a while longer? I'd like to just be able to pair up with someone thats going up anyways instead of buying another ticket.

I believe that you have to have a coach or jump with a D licensed person until you have your A license. I could be wrong about it, but I am thinking that is how it goes....double check the SIM though or talk to one of your coaches at your dz. RW can be a lot of fun and more challenging than you realize when you start doing more complicated manuevers. My hubby and I always are doing drill dives which pay off in the long when you start doing bigger formations....and will eventually help you with your free flying skills.

DPH # 2
"I am not sure what you are suppose to do with that, but I don't think it is suppose to flop around like that." ~Skootz~
I have a strong regard for the rules.......doc!

[Kami-kaze 0]

When I was doing my AFF in NZ, my instructor told me to exit on my back and fly a bit then flip back to belly and check heading, repeat that...said he wanted me not to get too fixated to dive exits and get too comfortable to belly position. I think it was my 10th solo. Yes, he was a freeflyer. I think AWARENESS is Major important in skydiving and this was one of those exersise in awareness.
By the way, if you are going to sitfly, communicate to people on your load that what you are doing, give yourself separation, and do it 90 degrees to the jump run. at least you have lower probability youwill be in someone else's air space, but don't count on it....You are going to backslide...There are so many people who gets stoked that they are sitflying and in denial that they are backsliding...who? me? it must be you attitude...
good luck

[LloydDobbler 2]

Quote

Quote

I am glad to hear that your jumps today went so well and that you were able to get some coach jumps in.

Your right the velcro might just rip off but if it doesn't you could end up with a potential neck injury and a main that is a big mess. I don't fly camera so won't comment any further about it.

Regardless, try and find someone to mentor you for your freeflying and don't give up on the RW stuff, it is a lot of fun when you start doing formation stuff. I love 4 way stuff ---- sometimes it is a big shit show, and sometimes it just is really nice and easy. Enjoy the sky and good luck.

Ya I actually did have a really good time just doing belly RW with my coach today. Since I've done that stuff with the coach and got my A license check dive signed off should I be able to start jumping some 2 way RW with other experienced jumpers or stay with the coach for a while longer? I'd like to just be able to pair up with someone thats going up anyways instead of buying another ticket.

Glad the coaching went well. I know it can be frustrating looking for a coach to jump with (or being able to afford it), but in the end, it's worth it.

Even with your check dive complete, the regs say that you're not allowed to jump with anyone besides a USPA Coach/Instructor or a D-license holder until you officially get your license. Sucks, but that's the way it is.

As for the freeflying, yes, it's something you can work on by yourself (which, as some mentioned, is why a lot of people move straight towards it off of student status...AND why so many of them suck at it). But that's usually because they don't like the idea of going to the DZ, introducing themselves to other people, and trying to get in on an FS jump.

Regardless, there's so much you can learn on your belly, I think it makes sense to do a lot of it. Heck, I've got a really nice sitfly, but I'm still trying to get better on my belly.

Back to a very important question that was already asked (but I didn't see your answer - maybe I missed it...?) - are you renting gear? Are you certain the gear is freefly-friendly? If not, you could be setting yourself up for a very messy mal. Not a good idea.

Food for thought...good luck with the rest of your student training!

Signatures are the new black.

[dragon2 0]

Quote

From what I understand is that you shouldn't fly a camera due to the distraction of it. Mine I just start before I even get on the plane and forget about it. If you don't have the mental control and can't just forget about the camera then I fully agree you shouldn't jump with one until you are far more experienced. I just turn it on and completely forget its even there. I'm not trying to film anybody and not trying to do anything with it....its just there. The camera doesn't come into my mind at all during the jump so I don't see how it would be a distraction.

OK, you're a cocky dumbass then. Don't hurt anyone else.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Quote

so I don't see how it would be a distraction.

You didn't understand the dangers of sliding into other groups airspace either. The bullet cam reduces the risks, but doesn't eliminate them. Distractions and snag potential (both during opening and under canopy) are only 2 of the risks. Read through the camera forum and the incidents forum (you can search to save time) to learn some of the others. I'm not an instructor, or even all that experienced, but adding any extra risk on a student jump is foolish IMO. Also self video doesn't show all that much. You can't see yourself, so you can't tell anything about body positon or anything else you should be concentrating on. I know it sounds like the "old guys" don't want the "new guys" to have any fun, but there are very good reasons (most of them taught in blood) for the rules and recommendations in place.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Adriandavies 0]

Quote

I'm also confused about the person that talked about my helmet camera catching my lines being a safety issue. What about the guys that have 8 pounds of camera equipment strapped to their heads? I figure a thumb sized camera attached by velcro is much safer than a huge Camcorder attached to the side of your head along with an uncased DSLR camera on top. I imagine if my risers or lines catch my helmet camera it will just be ripped off the velcro and hang by the cord. Am I missing something?

OK I'll just create a little scenario for you to think about. Your camera comes loose on deployment following a riser slap, you then have a malfunction and cut away, but wait whats this....your risers get tangled up with your camera and you can't get rid of your main, you get your reserve out but it gets tangled up with your main...need I go on! This might sound a little dramatic but eventually something like this will happen to someone (ever heard the adage that is something can go wrong eventually it will go wrong) but hopefully not to you.

The guys with the big cameras have a lot more experience than you and have specialised equipment such as camera helmets with cutaways, they also have practiced emergency procedures to deal with various scenarios which is clearly something you haven't done or even thought about.

[billvon 2,396]

>Its a tiny bullet helmet cam. Bout the size of your thumb and I don't
>see how that would affect anything at all.

It can.

> Mine I just start before I even get on the plane and forget about it.

You generally can't. (If you actually can completely forget about gear you are jumping with, that's an even bigger problem.)

>I'm also still confused as to how solo freeflying is so dangerous.

1) You will have almost no control over horizontal movement, and can track into other groups.

2) You will have no control over fall rate. If your AAD fires or your canopy opens while falling faster than your rig is designed to handle, your harness or reserve could be destroyed.

3) You cannot see the ground as easily, and you will fall faster. This can lead to a loss of altitude awareness, and can lead to a no-pull or low-pull fatality, or an AAD firing at an unsafe speed (see above.)

4) Newer jumpers can have trouble regaining stability at pull time. This can lead to no-pulls or unstable deployments at too high an airspeed (see point 2.)