normiss 622 #26 November 21, 2008 I foresee packer waivers.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #27 November 21, 2008 QuoteI have not heard of this anywhere. I think this might be the early stages of the manifestation of 'mainstream' skydiving and perhaps a prelude to jumpers expecting a packer to pay for a repack when the reserve is used. We had a packing concession at our DZ a few years ago that offered to pay for a repack if one of their pack jobs resulted in a cutaway (at least I heard that this was the offer) They did not assume responsibilty for any lost gear though. It seemed like more of a gimmick to me than anything else. If 1/500 of their pack jobs resulted in a cutaway, they were paying out 65 bucks for every 3000 they earned, or 13 cents per pack job done.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hausse 0 #28 November 21, 2008 I'm a packer and my policy is I ever happen to pack a cut away that is with no doubt my fault (step through) I will pay for their repack, but not for their lost equipment. If they spot themselves so shitty that there is no way of retrieving it, that is not my fault. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #29 November 21, 2008 QuoteSubjective errors- Improper line stows, improperly or un-stowed brake, & excessive nose rolling. Improper line stows according to whom? I once had a packer who was double wrapping my tube-stoes. After a couple of near bag locks, and a lot of broken tubes, I figured out what was going on. Was it bad packing? Sure. Would I expect him to pay for a new main if I cut it away and couldn't find it? No way. Brakes can unstow on opening. It's not necessarily the packer's fault. And brakes should be set by the jumper prior to being handed off to a packer. Excessive nose rolling? Talk about subjective! And I think bad line stows can lead to a line-over if the bag gets hung up long enough to spin through the lines, but that's just my guess, I don't have any data or proof on that. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MooChooser 0 #30 November 21, 2008 QuoteBrakes can unstow on opening. It's not necessarily the packer's fault. And brakes should be set by the jumper prior to being handed off to a packer. If a packer doesnt notice that the jumper forgot to set his brakes, he shouldnt be packing. The same goes for the packer who doesnt check that the pilot chute is cocked...no excuse for that at all! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 45 #31 November 21, 2008 No excuses...but it happens. To very experienced jumpers too.Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 5 #32 November 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteI've always wondered what would happen if as a student on rental gear I had to cut away and the main was lost. If the student was told that he/she must be responsible for lost equipment they might hesitate to do the proper emergency procedures and that is not what they should be thinking about. They should be concentrating on doing the right thing. And if a school holds you responsible, then there should be insurance that can be purchased just like with a rental car. Otherwise go find another school.Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #33 November 21, 2008 Perfectly reasonable. Just inform them that in order to protect your financial interests on all rigs you pack for them, you are going to tack all the cut-away pads to the main lift webbing and secure all ripcords with a tie rib. Tell us how they responded. "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreenLight 5 #34 November 21, 2008 "Is this going on anywhere else?" Not that I know. Unless you signed a contract with the school agreeing on these terms I would walk. If it is a new thing tell them to go climb a tree and quit. There are plenty of jobs out there packing. Besides, if anyone is responsible for lost gear it would be the guy spotting the load. And who is that these days? My packing mentor had T shirts made that said "Double Your Money Back If You Bounce"... Of course he never had to pay. Anyone remember who that was?Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CSpenceFLY 1 #35 November 21, 2008 Quote I foresee packer waivers.... That is what I was going to post. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wolfriverjoe 1,340 #36 November 22, 2008 Quote Quote I've always wondered what would happen if as a student on rental gear I had to cut away and the main was lost. ... And if a school holds you responsible, then there should be insurance that can be purchased just like with a rental car... I was under the impression the "damage beyond normal wear and tear" clause in the waiver was fairly standard. (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). There is a temporary USPA membership that includes the insurance. That insurance should cover the DZ's gear, and anything the student damages on landing.(Again, correct me if I'm wrong) Getting the students to pay the extra $20?? "There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreenLight 5 #37 November 22, 2008 "I was under the impression the "damage beyond normal wear and tear" clause in the waiver was fairly standard." It has been almost 30 years since my first jump course and I am not an instructor so I don't know about new waivers and all. Back then they were happy if you lived. "There is a temporary USPA membership that includes the insurance. That insurance should cover the DZ's gear, and anything the student damages on landing.(Again, correct me if I'm wrong)" This I was not aware of and I thank you for pointing it out. This is something that should be put up on a HUGE sign somewhere on the DZ. Or at least it should be mentioned because again, if you are thinking that you are responsible for the canopy as a student, you may not chop in time. Thanks again for the info... Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #38 November 22, 2008 Quote"There is a temporary USPA membership that includes the insurance. I might misunderstand as well... but my impression is that USPA insurance covers landing on "Joe the Spectator's car" or taking out "Farmer the McNeighbor's silo" Not losing the DZO's handles and canopy.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CSpenceFLY 1 #39 November 22, 2008 You are correct. USPA insurance will not pay for lost gear. It will also not pay for damage to another members property. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kimemerson 7 #40 November 22, 2008 It's not a place. it's a perspective. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wolfriverjoe 1,340 #41 November 22, 2008 QuoteYou are correct. USPA insurance will not pay for lost gear. It will also not pay for damage to another members property. Okay, thanks for setting me straight. It doesn't matter all that much because almost nobody buys the temp USPA membership, and my DZ wouldn't/hasn't charged for lost gear from legit cutaways. A bright orange/red or green/red 288 manta would be very difficult to lose around here."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PeregrineFalcon 0 #42 November 22, 2008 Quote If the student was told that he/she must be responsible for lost equipment they might hesitate to do the proper emergency procedures and that is not what they should be thinking about. They should be concentrating on doing the right thing. Guilty. It wasn't that big of a mal and I landed it, but I was taught earlier that if the toggle has to be pulled more than half way down to keep her straight, then chop. Part of my decision was based on having to pay for the equipment lost. There was some ego involved as well, "I can land this." I did land it, but caught an earful from the resident veteran father figure. No lectures either way, please. I was just reinforcing GreenLight's opinion with an anecdote. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #43 November 22, 2008 QuoteIt doesn't matter all that much because almost nobody buys the temp USPA membership The temporary membership insurance is the same as the full membership insurance.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skron 0 #44 November 22, 2008 I know we have gotten a little of the OP topic, but it has raised a question for me. I am from a small DZ, I have jumped other places, but am not fully aware of other DZ's practices. A student at my DZ recently had a cutaway and had to pay for the lost gear. A freebag & pilot chute, and lost handles. The cutaway itself was questionable whether it was his packing error or if it could have been cleared, but he is a student and he felt he needed to chop so I feel he did the right thing. When he was told he had to pay for the gear I was surprised, but thought it made sense. Is it customary for students to have to pay for lost gear or does the DZ usually pay for it since they will end up making their money back on other students?Well behaved women don't often make history. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites format 0 #45 November 22, 2008 Heyman777 Jumps License In sport 4 years Nov 20, 2008, 7:23 PM Registered: Aug 15, 2008 Posts: 1 Beside THIS guy, is there any packer who's been asked to pay instead of being payed? If not - please! I say: 2008 TROLL AWARD goes to Heyman777 43 replies! WOW people What goes around, comes later. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #46 November 22, 2008 QuoteYou are correct. USPA insurance will not pay for lost gear. It will also not pay for damage to another members property. In the case of rented gear then, that is not the property of the jumper but the DZO - so would that be covered? (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #47 November 22, 2008 Quote Quote You are correct. USPA insurance will not pay for lost gear. It will also not pay for damage to another members property. In the case of rented gear then, that is not the property of the jumper but the DZO - so would that be covered? i think it's akin to 3rd party liability for car registrations. where OTHER people not involved with the sport who are impacted negatively by the sport are covered. But hey it's the yanks and they do thing weirdly so it could be completely different You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #48 November 22, 2008 (1) That would make sense (2) 100% agree (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites adobelover 0 #49 November 23, 2008 At my DZ, if the student has a cutaway...they pay for any lost handles and a repack. If it's an upjumper they pay for their own lost shit._________________________________________ Old age ain't no place for sissies! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bob.dino 0 #50 November 23, 2008 Total and utter shite. The whole point of a packer is "you pay your money, you take your chances." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Liemberg 0 #33 November 21, 2008 Perfectly reasonable. Just inform them that in order to protect your financial interests on all rigs you pack for them, you are going to tack all the cut-away pads to the main lift webbing and secure all ripcords with a tie rib. Tell us how they responded. "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 5 #34 November 21, 2008 "Is this going on anywhere else?" Not that I know. Unless you signed a contract with the school agreeing on these terms I would walk. If it is a new thing tell them to go climb a tree and quit. There are plenty of jobs out there packing. Besides, if anyone is responsible for lost gear it would be the guy spotting the load. And who is that these days? My packing mentor had T shirts made that said "Double Your Money Back If You Bounce"... Of course he never had to pay. Anyone remember who that was?Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #35 November 21, 2008 Quote I foresee packer waivers.... That is what I was going to post. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,340 #36 November 22, 2008 Quote Quote I've always wondered what would happen if as a student on rental gear I had to cut away and the main was lost. ... And if a school holds you responsible, then there should be insurance that can be purchased just like with a rental car... I was under the impression the "damage beyond normal wear and tear" clause in the waiver was fairly standard. (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). There is a temporary USPA membership that includes the insurance. That insurance should cover the DZ's gear, and anything the student damages on landing.(Again, correct me if I'm wrong) Getting the students to pay the extra $20?? "There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 5 #37 November 22, 2008 "I was under the impression the "damage beyond normal wear and tear" clause in the waiver was fairly standard." It has been almost 30 years since my first jump course and I am not an instructor so I don't know about new waivers and all. Back then they were happy if you lived. "There is a temporary USPA membership that includes the insurance. That insurance should cover the DZ's gear, and anything the student damages on landing.(Again, correct me if I'm wrong)" This I was not aware of and I thank you for pointing it out. This is something that should be put up on a HUGE sign somewhere on the DZ. Or at least it should be mentioned because again, if you are thinking that you are responsible for the canopy as a student, you may not chop in time. Thanks again for the info... Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #38 November 22, 2008 Quote"There is a temporary USPA membership that includes the insurance. I might misunderstand as well... but my impression is that USPA insurance covers landing on "Joe the Spectator's car" or taking out "Farmer the McNeighbor's silo" Not losing the DZO's handles and canopy.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #39 November 22, 2008 You are correct. USPA insurance will not pay for lost gear. It will also not pay for damage to another members property. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kimemerson 7 #40 November 22, 2008 It's not a place. it's a perspective. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,340 #41 November 22, 2008 QuoteYou are correct. USPA insurance will not pay for lost gear. It will also not pay for damage to another members property. Okay, thanks for setting me straight. It doesn't matter all that much because almost nobody buys the temp USPA membership, and my DZ wouldn't/hasn't charged for lost gear from legit cutaways. A bright orange/red or green/red 288 manta would be very difficult to lose around here."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeregrineFalcon 0 #42 November 22, 2008 Quote If the student was told that he/she must be responsible for lost equipment they might hesitate to do the proper emergency procedures and that is not what they should be thinking about. They should be concentrating on doing the right thing. Guilty. It wasn't that big of a mal and I landed it, but I was taught earlier that if the toggle has to be pulled more than half way down to keep her straight, then chop. Part of my decision was based on having to pay for the equipment lost. There was some ego involved as well, "I can land this." I did land it, but caught an earful from the resident veteran father figure. No lectures either way, please. I was just reinforcing GreenLight's opinion with an anecdote. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #43 November 22, 2008 QuoteIt doesn't matter all that much because almost nobody buys the temp USPA membership The temporary membership insurance is the same as the full membership insurance.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skron 0 #44 November 22, 2008 I know we have gotten a little of the OP topic, but it has raised a question for me. I am from a small DZ, I have jumped other places, but am not fully aware of other DZ's practices. A student at my DZ recently had a cutaway and had to pay for the lost gear. A freebag & pilot chute, and lost handles. The cutaway itself was questionable whether it was his packing error or if it could have been cleared, but he is a student and he felt he needed to chop so I feel he did the right thing. When he was told he had to pay for the gear I was surprised, but thought it made sense. Is it customary for students to have to pay for lost gear or does the DZ usually pay for it since they will end up making their money back on other students?Well behaved women don't often make history. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
format 0 #45 November 22, 2008 Heyman777 Jumps License In sport 4 years Nov 20, 2008, 7:23 PM Registered: Aug 15, 2008 Posts: 1 Beside THIS guy, is there any packer who's been asked to pay instead of being payed? If not - please! I say: 2008 TROLL AWARD goes to Heyman777 43 replies! WOW people What goes around, comes later. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #46 November 22, 2008 QuoteYou are correct. USPA insurance will not pay for lost gear. It will also not pay for damage to another members property. In the case of rented gear then, that is not the property of the jumper but the DZO - so would that be covered? (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #47 November 22, 2008 Quote Quote You are correct. USPA insurance will not pay for lost gear. It will also not pay for damage to another members property. In the case of rented gear then, that is not the property of the jumper but the DZO - so would that be covered? i think it's akin to 3rd party liability for car registrations. where OTHER people not involved with the sport who are impacted negatively by the sport are covered. But hey it's the yanks and they do thing weirdly so it could be completely different You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #48 November 22, 2008 (1) That would make sense (2) 100% agree (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
adobelover 0 #49 November 23, 2008 At my DZ, if the student has a cutaway...they pay for any lost handles and a repack. If it's an upjumper they pay for their own lost shit._________________________________________ Old age ain't no place for sissies! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #50 November 23, 2008 Total and utter shite. The whole point of a packer is "you pay your money, you take your chances." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
