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Sangi

Trick with tandem

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Ok, let me keep an open mind and let you explain to me what makes a BASIK tandem rig more "freefly friendly" than say, a Sigma? (Maybe it is just that the manufacturer is more friendly to people freeflying in their rig!?)

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Europe has BASIK tandem rigs, with which you can do stuff like atmonauti no problem, so I suggest you order some of those rigs and start evolving as well.



Also explain to me why I would want to "evolve" back to a tandem rig with a 3-ring drogue release, with flex pin closure, and a Stevens Lanyard (which works great when you break that RSL side riser after a nice freefly tandem.)

Skydiving is a progressive sport, and what you and your foolish friends do on your own time without risking students safety is your own business. But the BASIK tandem manufacturer not only seems to condone, but encourage this type of flying with students. So if what you say is true, and you do not support taking risks with paying customers or students, then why would you reference us to this website? www.tandem.aero/Tandem/The_Modern_way_of_Tandem_flying.html

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As in hold onto the student, which is hooked onto the TI, when they deploy, jump off em ! B|



Did you get kicked in the head in freefall or possibly destroy your head on a bad landing? B|[:/]

I'd happily try to do this with the right TM and passenger strapped on front (not customer or student).


OK, but who'd be the passenger?

Don't misunderstand me, pushing limits and doing new and exciting stuff is cool. I still like watching the "Cars" segment in "Good Stuff".
Freeflying, swooping, wingsuiting and even atmonauti (which I still believe is nothing more than tracking) are great. These were all "stupid and dangerous" in the beginning. Doing these things while fully understanding the risks is your choice and fine by me. Without these sort of jumps, we'd all still be jumping rounds.

BUT, What advances are being made by doing them tandem? What is "exciting and cool" about being helplessly strapped to another jumper during these stunts. Tandems are already complex and risky jumps all by themselves. Look at the TI requirements and training. IIRC, its the only rating that requires a deliberate cutaway during training. For recurrency jumps, the "student" is requred to have a C license or better.
I will repeat. Who is willing to ride as the tandem student during these stunts?
I'm not all that experienced, but I see a ton of added risk doing these things tandem. As has been said previously, the tandem pair has very limited mobility, much added complexity, and very few options if something goes wrong. Can the student even reach the reserve handle if the TI is incapacitated?
In the "Tandem Hybrid" video, the tandem group fall rather quickly away from the freeflyers. How fast is the drogue and it bridle rated for? How fast were they going?
Also in the video, the "tandem stander" stumbled getting on their back. How close did he come to entangling the bridle? How close to deploying the main did he come?
What other risks are there? I don't have enough experience to see all of them, so I'm sure there are more.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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So if what you say is true, and you do not support taking risks with paying customers or students, then why would you reference us to this website? www.tandem.aero/Tandem/The_Modern_way_of_Tandem_flying.html



I was particularly referring to this stunt:

http://www.skydivingteam.pl/main/filmy.php

Not to the things in the website you're talking about.
"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

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BUT, What advances are being made by doing them tandem? What is "exciting and cool" about being helplessly strapped to another jumper during these stunts. Tandems are already complex and risky jumps all by themselves. Look at the TI requirements and training. IIRC, its the only rating that requires a deliberate cutaway during training. For recurrency jumps, the "student" is requred to have a C license or better.
I will repeat. Who is willing to ride as the tandem student during these stunts?



I'd doit without hesitation with the TM of my choice and limpet of my choice
as to why

WHY jump out of a plane in the 1st place


The WHY should never be asked in this sport.:S:S:S
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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Hello there, there is 2 different things - one - to let any one grab your drogue, or even be higher then TM in free fall, another - take advantage to try some Tandem modern fly.

There the BIG difference what you can do with the Tandem rig - or what rig let you to do (like in sport, not all sport rigs or old ones can be used for Free Fly).

I'm one of TMF member, Tandem Master and Tandem Examiner as well.
Sigma... chmm.. still has velcro, Sigma passenger harness do not even let you make unstable/HD/back fly/ exit from plane (cause this can lead you into uncontrolled spin), SIGMA have opening speed limitation etcr..
Some new rigs - like Basik Tandem, or Thomas Sport (of cause all of you hear about them) have: Basik - TSO and E-TSO-C23d approvals up to 264 kg MSW and up to 190 kts air speed, 4 (not 3 like in sigma) Rings risers cutaway system allow you less stress and effort when malfunction is on, all handles are freefly handles (drogue, all drogue realyses, cutaway), No risk to have the drogue pouch open while in the plane, cause its made like normal FF sport rig from spandex.Pasanger harnes complete different then other rigs - you are one body with your student. And many many more.
So if you use this new kind of Tandem rig and Icarus Tandem main canopie (all of you know it, right), which one have really soft opening, not like old school main canopies - you can try some TMF basik positions. Like flip exit, some tracking with drogue, some tracking without it, some freefalig withouth drogue for more time, some HD exits, some back fly. For the first steps - you have to be alone with your pasanger, no video man, no handcamera on you. Its the same, like to try FF for the very first time - if you just feel unstable, semicontroled body position - go back into your normal body position!
Do not forget that all of these body positions is aerodynamic. Never try Sitfly with tandem; never try CWR with tandem, and never try swoop with hook turns.

By the way, any of you ever try Jojowings tandem 280? This new crosbrased canopie. I wish to know your opinion. How this canopie on openings, and how to land with tandem in zero wind with wing load 2.1 or more. http://www.jojowings.com/img/sd/hxp/hxp1.jpg

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have you ever even SEEN a Sigma tandem rig?

There is NO velcro on this rig anywhere.

And I have no idea what you are talking about with the passenger harness either.
This entire thread has become ludicrous.
At the beginning of you post, you imply how poorly designed the passenger harness i, because "Sigma passenger harness do not even let you make unstable/HD/back fly/ exit from plane (cause this can lead you into uncontrolled spin), " and at the bottom"Never try Sitfly with tandem; never try CWR with tandem, and never try swoop with hook turns. "

Your ability to contradict your self makes you lose the tiny bit of credability you might have had.

I wish this thread would go away...


Ralph Nichols
USPA TandemI/E

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I wish this thread would go away...


Ralph Nichols
USPA TandemI/E


Or you could exercise some self control and not open it:D:D

I dont want to read this make it go away:(:(
:P
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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It is STILL a tandem rig with a 3 ring drogue release, no collins lanyard, and flex pin closure. So it is TSO'd to a higher speed and weight. It is a stronger rig. That is the ONE thing you said that made me feel better about what you are doing. The Sigma has no Velcro anywhere (except for the main toggles). It also has a "sport" style drogue pouch, and corner bridle protection. Plus Sigma solves the out of sequence deployment problem. (Unless your closing loop breaks or pin(s) are dislodged with the drogue still in the pouch.)

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Sigma passenger harness do not even let you make unstable/HD/back fly/ exit from plane (cause this can lead you into uncontrolled spin),



People have been doing this crap for years. Flip exits (many dropzones condone this even with old gear), drogueless, tracking. Show me how the Advance harness is going to prevent a side spin as compared to other harnesses. (a little more detail than "because you are one with your student" would be nice.)

Also just because the rig is TSO'd to higher speeds and weights does not mean that you don't need to slow down before you deploy.

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no, you are one of the people that this type of drivel would appeal to.

There are certain people that have responded to this thread because, somewhere,at some dz, someone will read this type of mis-informed " hey, watch this" performance, and try this, and we have enough of an up-hill battle promoting safety as it is.


So, having followed your post history, you probably don't want to see this proven to be a mindless, stupid stunt.

SOOOOO glad you aren't responsible for students lives....

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Hey, have you ever saw NOT Sigma rig? Europien one?
Can you hang up your passenger so tight and this same time comfortable that become one body with you?
Can you leave the brakes as it is on your tandem rig (do not set it)?
Have you ever jumped Icarus Tandem, Jojowings Tandems (hop330) as main canopie?

If you can answer "yes" for even one question - you are open minded TI. If no - you old school conservative instructor, never open minded for new kind of stuff, FF its still looks to you "stupid idea", and crosbrassed canopies - really danger and made only for idiots, and all swoop landing style - like superman, blind man, flip on risers - its looks to you like some kind of new kind suicide.


Peace out.


ps. As you also are Tandem examiner you may know, or you will find out, that tracking with the tandem (with drogue is deployed) - never ever'll lead side spin, cause yours and yours passenger body position is straight. Of cause - you possibly will track "around", but never go into side spin. You can go into side spin, in freefall position, cause you never know what are you passenger will do. Other-words - it is easy to explain for first time jumper how to track, then how to made perfect freefall position.
Like Marco Tiezzi from team Atmonauti said " Today Tandem passanger isn't only carryed during the fall, but assume a fundamental role in trying to have a shape more aerodynamic that is possible to get the best flying performance. Amd is even more easy than normal tandem!"

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Yes its has - on risers.

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Sequence - was only on some rigs. On Advance Tandem rig there no such thing. If you have some problems - just cut away, like on sport canopie. You will cut everything (you will realease drogue, and open main).No such thing like to realease drogue first etc. In ANY malfunction. Even if your main pin will brake. You have to see.


<>

It is depends on canopie you have. My 700 jumps old Icarus Tandem opening about 500 meters. Of cause - you'll have to slow down, but not like forever on old Vector canopies.

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no, you are one of the people that this type of drivel would appeal to.

There are certain people that have responded to this thread because, somewhere,at some dz, someone will read this type of mis-informed " hey, watch this" performance, and try this, and we have enough of an up-hill battle promoting safety as it is.


So, having followed your post history, you probably don't want to see this proven to be a mindless, stupid stunt.

SOOOOO glad you aren't responsible for students lives....

Well you didn't follow my post history well. because i specifically stated that it should NOT be done with students, but with experienced jumpers who are aware of the risks involved and accept those risks.
Tracking back into a plane is a dangerous thing to do, riding objects out of tail gates is dangerous, sitting in cars in freefall is dangerous., High performance canopy piloting is dangerous.
OH and SKYDIVING is dangerous.

the sports is where it is today because people decided that they would do something different than the accepted norm at the time. Many thougt it was dumb stupid and dangerous. and it probably was, so what.

Dumb Stupid and Dangerous is one of the things we do best has humans.
Rockets, jets, BASE jumping, Skydiving, Ultralights, downhill mountain biking, freeclimbing.


I appreciate that it's not something you are in favour of, but if it's done with adults who know the risks and accepts the possible consequences, then i say FILL YA BOOTS and Get video.




I just saw that you jump a 96 :o:o:o are you fucking crazy that shit will kill you:o
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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So totally agreed Squeak!

So well said...

You will probably say, skydiving is already dangerous, why make it more dangerous? Flying to the moon was dangerous and now people are planning to fly to Mars, WTF?! It's dangerous! But that's how we evolve and get to the next level. So anyway I suggest you all just do simple belly flying if everything else is too dangerous and be safe and happy about it, you won't be making skydiving any more dangerous by doing that!

But it's no point arguing with these people on dropzone.com as I have noticed now, they're gonna defend their out of date opinion no matter what ;)

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

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You should become better informed before jumping to broad conclusions.

Icarus Tandem mains are relatively common in the US - I jump them regularly, for one.

There is no velcro on a Sigma - as much as you may wish to insist otherwise, you are mistaken on this point.

After browsing the manual for the Advance Tandem rig, I fail to see any justification for your air of superiority regarding this rig. It looks reminiscent of the older Vector tandem rigs that pre-dated the Sigma, meaning for one, that it has the same problem with out of sequence deployments as the older Vector tandem rigs.

Unless I am mistaken, with the Advance Tandem rig works this way (now follow closely, and read carefully):
1. AFTER the drogue is set...
2. Imagine the main container pin(s) is(are) dislodged before any drogue release OR cutaway handle is pulled;
3. The main container opens and the d-bag is released;
4. However, the drogue is still attached to the three ring because both drogue release cables are still fully seated.
5. Now you're having a bad day.

Am I mistaken? If not, this is WAY behind the technological advances of the Sigma.

The ONLY relative advantage I can see with your Advance Tandem rig is that the lower connector attaches in line with the students leg strap, rather than at the hip point, as on the sigma rig. I can imagine how this could provide good control of the student's body during freefall by providing more stability for the student's hips.

Otherwise, the Advance Tandem rig is a mix of several older tandem rig designs - that still has the problems of those older designs.

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Hello there, in this case <<4. However, the drogue is still attached to the three ring because both drogue release cables are still fully seated.>> you just have to grab cut away handle and pull out, cause this will release you drogue which one still attached. Cutaway handle are connected with risers and drogue attachment.

Anyway - Advance rig is much more smaller, then Sigma. If you put 350 Precision dot aero Tandem reserve and 330 Icarus Tandem - size is does matter. :)
And of cause - if you read manual, you may know that Advance rigs DO NOT HAVE reserve flaps, reserve free bag is that what you see outside on the container. This for all Advance rigs Tandem and sports. This is big advantage. Basik Advance Concept tandem have Freefly style riser cowers - this is really important if you wish to make some modern tandem fly. And many many more.

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Hey, have you ever saw NOT Sigma rig? Europien one?



Gee, I wasn't aware that UPT manufactures different Sigmas for Europe.

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Can you hang up your passenger so tight and this same time comfortable that become one body with you?



Yes

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Can you leave the brakes as it is on your tandem rig (do not set it)?
Have you ever jumped Icarus Tandem, Jojowings Tandems (hop330) as main canopie?



I have 5000 tandems on Icarus canopies. And I have enough jumps on the HOP 330 to know it is a piece of shit.

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If you can answer "yes" for even one question - you are open minded TI. If no - you old school conservative instructor, never open minded for new kind of stuff, FF its still looks to you "stupid idea", and crosbrassed canopies - really danger and made only for idiots, and all swoop landing style - like superman, blind man, flip on risers - its looks to you like some kind of new kind suicide.



So because I have jumped Icarus / HOP canopies that makes me open minded? FF ( I assume you mean freefly) is really cool, but not with tandems. Crossbraced canopies are really cool, but not for tandem students. Freestyle, whatever floats your boat. (I am sure you will be finding a way to do freestyle canopy landings on tandems next. Here's a move. How about the Kahuna, where you face slide your student in like a surfboard on that little crossbraced tandem canopy you are advertising?) :o

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ps. As you also are Tandem examiner you may know, or you will find out, that tracking with the tandem (with drogue is deployed) - never ever'll lead side spin, cause yours and yours passenger body position is straight. Of cause - you possibly will track "around", but never go into side spin.



I am not a tandem examiner. I track all the time with tandems. It is SOP here on tandem level 2. You can drogue track in any tandem rig. No shit you can't have a side spin with the drogue out.

I am trying to come up with a way to tell you what an idiot you sound like without getting my post deleted for a personal attack.

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Sigma eliminates the possibility of that scenario. If the main pin is dislodged, the drogue is automatically released.

RW makes a smaller Sigma container (I think its called Micro) for the instructor who wants only to jump a 330.

I'm not saying anything about your desire to freefly with tandem students, but your argument about gear superiority is bunk- you need a new argument.



But here's my two cents on the issue of pushing the envelope with tandem rigs if anyone's interested:

It's playing with fire. The Skydiving industry is supported by first-time Tandem students, who are generally clueless about what goes on in the sky and don't know enough to care a bit about their instructor's freeflying skills. Leave Tandem operations alone, even when a student is not involved, because any incidents that happen with tandems or with students get spread through the media, causing more people to choose not to spend their money on a perceived dangerous skydive.

I fully understand that skydiving owes its existence and current safety record to those who have endeavored to push the envelope, and I'm thankful to them, because I can enjoy a relatively safe sport because of their sacrifices. But the current state of the skydiving industry is dependent on those first-timers coming out and spending money. Tandem operations should be treated with care, and placed in a bubble - effectively isolated from the envelope-pushing nature that helps our sport evolve (that includes riskier tandem skydives where the passenger is NOT a student). Any changes in Tandem operations should be in the direction of safer measures, rather than introducing new risk.

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Hey, have you ever saw NOT Sigma rig? Europien one?



Gee, I wasn't aware that UPT manufactures different Sigmas for Europe.


He wasn't saying that, you are mis reading it.
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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<>

Yes its has - on risers.

Ok, now we squabble over mindless symmantical points.
The RIG has no velcro.
the main risers do.
I have been lucky enough to watch this sport evolve at an astonishing rate.
And,no I am not an"old school"instructor,as far as being progressive and open minded to anything, as long as it is safe and has the students best interest in mind.
That being said however, this has nothing to do with the original post.

I still maintain it is stupid and reckless to climb all over the tandem rig unless you are packing.


ralph

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I have been lucky enough to watch this sport evolve at an astonishing rate.
And,no I am not an"old school"instructor,as far as being progressive and open minded to anything, as long as it is safe and has the students best interest in mind.
That being said however, this has nothing to do with the original post.

I still maintain it is stupid and reckless to climb all over the tandem rig unless you are packing.
ralph


But Skydiving is inhenrently NOT safe. and as i stated previously "stupid and reckless" is what we (humans) do very well.
But i agree wholeheartedly NOT to do it with Students
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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Then what IS he saying? Is he asking if I have ever seen a tandem rig other than a Sigma? ( a NOT Sigma? ) If so, yes, I am rated on Strong, Vector, and Eclipse also.

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Europien one?



I hope this guy can skydive better than he can write or spell.

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You and squeek need to quit just talking about doing this stuff and go do it. Sangi and Squeek, 1...2 yup that makes up a tandem pair. niteko will be your third.


I said i would do it with peope of MY choosing, and sangi would not be one fo those people i would choose. neither would skittles;)
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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