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Sangi

Trick with tandem

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Here in the US, any lawyer can file a lawsuit for any reason. That suit has to be defended unless you want a default judgement. (kinda like forfeiting a ball game). Even with the multi-page liabilty waivers that are mandatory, suits still are filed, and sometimes the DZ/gear mfg loses.
People have sued motorcycle mfgs for what was clearly stupidity on the part of the operator. And won. Ever notice that there aren't any more 3-wheel ATVs anymore? Even though they are more capable and manuverable?
Part of living and doing business in the US.



haha USA is funny really.

I remember there was a case because some "smart" ass ate a candy with the plastic wrap and got sick, so he sued the company and won. Now there is a note on all kinds of product wraps "do not eat" :D
"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

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Ok.. so even if that would be possible, why arent people afraid of lawsuits when someone does a rodeo birdman or a Mr. bill for example ?



#1 Because the people doing those stunts are usually friends and assume they won't sue each other

#2 Because they haven't been sued before and aren't lawyers. (Ask Bill Booth how many times he's been sued)

Normiss has a good point too. This stunt is kinda like having a full grown tiger curl up on your lap. Those who think it would be "cool", "fun" and "exciting" have no clue about the danger. Those who have the training and experience also have the understanding of how stupid and dangerous it is. And the only ones who do it regularly are highly paid performers/entertainers. And even they have bad days. (Remember Sigfried and Roy?)
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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I wonder what exactly makes the possibility of liability higher with tandem gear manufaturers compared to normal sport gear manufacturers ?

(not talking about student jumps here)



I think it's more complicated than that. Experienced jumpers doing stupid things with tandem rigs are probably unlikely to sue a manufacturer. Far less likely than real tandem students.



... however, surviving family members, spouses, children etc.... who could be far less ENthused about this sport,,,, could very likely look for some sort of 'compensation' for the loss of the loved one....in the sad event of severe injury or death...[:/]
hence,, litigation, which equals expense, and aggravation for a defendant, not to mention bad P R ....
not a very fair payback to the pioneers of tandem.....

IMHO

j

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... however, surviving family members, spouses, children etc.... who could be far less ENthused about this sport,,,, could very likely look for some sort of 'compensation' for the loss of the loved one....in the sad event of severe injury or death...[:/]
hence,, litigation, which equals expense, and aggravation for a defendant, not to mention bad P R ....
not a very fair payback to the pioneers of tandem.....

IMHO

j



I completely agree. All I meant was that I don't think a family member of a skydiver is more likely to sue a tandem manufacturer than a sport rig manufacturer. Difference is that tricks with tandem rigs are more dangerous than with sport rigs, and the implications to the rest of us are much greater when a tandem rig is involved.

Dave

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#1 Because the people doing those stunts are usually friends and assume they won't sue each other



I wasnt talking about one of the stunt participants suing another participant. I was talking about someone suing the manufacturer, after something went wrong during the stunt.


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#2 Because they haven't been sued before and aren't lawyers. (Ask Bill Booth how many times he's been sued)



Now you mentioned Bill Booth. As far as I know hes involved in both, regular sport gear and tandem gear. Why dont you think someone might as easily sue him after someone gets hurt doing a MR.bill with normal sport gear from Relative workshop ? What makes tandem gear so prone towards prosecution ?


EDIT: actually one might argue that tandem gear manufacturers are actually much less likely to be held liable, since they have produced so much protocols, recommendations and training programs for how to use their gear properly. And so if someone chooses to act against, they are on their own..

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Speed for one.
Entanglement for another.
Premature deployment taking out the "back stander"
Premature deployment at high speed causing gear failure - 2 people in tandem freefall without drouge fall at approx. 250 mph, adding the third would cause me to guess at near 300mph - would YOU like a canopy deployment at that speed????B|

Here, let me hold your pilot chute in one hand and stand on your rig while I hold on to it.

:S

There's a few folks here making me wonder about jumping WITH ANYONE!
I dunno 'bout you folks, but I'd really like to continue jumping for a looooong time.



FYI I agree completely with you. So then why are the same stunts/hybrid/Mr. bill/Rodeo jumps okay as long as a tandem rig is not invovled. You can suffer the same consequeneces of an entanglement, high speed premature deployement etc. But those jumps are considered okay. Just questioning the mentality of the status quo is all. ;)

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#1 Because the people doing those stunts are usually friends and assume they won't sue each other



I wasnt talking about one of the stunt participants suing another participant. I was talking about someone suing the manufacturer, after something went wrong during the stunt.


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#2 Because they haven't been sued before and aren't lawyers. (Ask Bill Booth how many times he's been sued)



Now you mentioned Bill Booth. As far as I know hes involved in both, regular sport gear and tandem gear. Why dont you think someone might as easily sue him after someone gets hurt doing a MR.bill with normal sport gear from Relative workshop ? What makes tandem gear so prone towards prosecution ?


EDIT: actually one might argue that tandem gear manufacturers are actually much less likely to be held liable, since they have produced so much protocols, recommendations and training programs for how to use their gear properly. And so if someone chooses to act against, they are on their own..



That is a good point. Since there are so many rules about what is allowed with tandem gear, and you sign and acknowledge such when you get the rating, you would think it would be a lot harder to hold tandem manufactures liable over sport rig manufacturers.

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Fully agreed.
But that's not what we're discussing in this thread.

My opinion of a few of those activities would not be very different than my one on this topic.

I prefer to live to jump another day. Do those that think such stunt of stupidity is "cool" feel the same?

I think not.

I can't imagine such wanton disregard for one's own life. Skydiving IS risky enough with said risks mitigated as much as they are or can be.

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I can't imagine such wanton disregard for one's own life. Skydiving IS risky enough with said risks mitigated as much as they are or can be.



There will always be people who want to get everything from what they do, no matter the risks :)
It's just a matter of attitude.

Well, actually kudos to them who succeed in pushing the limits and living another day to tell the story, they truely live their lives to the fullest :P

But that's just my opinion.
"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

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Then again, those of us who realize the risk we already assume great.

and I've only been on a few ash dives so far anyway, right?

I've already (in 5 years) lost friends to base jumps, canopy collisions, malfunctions, motorcycle accidents, cancer, and car wrecks.

You folks have fun being "cool".

I must be getting old.

growing old CERTAINLY beats the other option though...:P

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That is a good point. Since there are so many rules about what is allowed with tandem gear, and you sign and acknowledge such when you get the rating, you would think it would be a lot harder to hold tandem manufactures liable over sport rig manufacturers.




But rules are meaningless unless they're enforced. And that in turn is why the tandem gear manufacturers *have* to pull ratings over things like this. Because if they let it slide, then they *can* become more liable for not enforcing their own rules.

(And that was my original answer to the OP's question: the reason to not do it = because the TI is violating a contract they signed with the manufacturer, and therefore can lose their ratings for violating said contract.)

So it becomes a chicken or egg argument. Why even have the rules, if you're going to have to enforce them?

Ultimately, since the tandem gear manufacturer stands to lose the most, and are the ones making the tandem jump possible in the first place, I think they get to call the shots.
Signatures are the new black.

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While I agree that it's stupid and dangerous, that is a cool pic and I've got a new wallpaper:)
It looks like the dude is standing on the kill-line between where it leaves the bridle and enters the D-bag. Imagine if his foot got looped/stuck in there as he was trying to bail!!:o

I believe that's the 'soon to be dead douchebag-in-tow' malfunctionB|
I got nuthin

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If there are REALLY, HONESTLY, people out there that think taking these kinds of risks is "cool"...we really DO need to "thin the herd".
:|



and i think Sangi is in the front of the line,,jumping up and down,,saying,,me next ! me next ! :S[:/]



So what? Plus, do you really think that, or wish that upon someone? By the way, my comments are not directed toward you specifically, many people have said things like that.

His thoughts are no different than most skydivers who want to progress. Most don't act on them but the people who do are indirectly the reason we have such good equipment to use now.

I've done PLENTY of out of the ordinary jumps and while some people ridicule or think it's crazy... it's nothing compared to what others have done.

You can do things in a haphazard way, or you can plan it out and train yourself to function under those circumstances.

A lot of ripping is going on in this thread. I'll paraphrase one of those thoughts:

- If you stand on my back I'll smash your face in when we get on the ground.-

That statement is based on a random act. Someone who would do that has permission. It wouldn't be someone just hopping on out of the blue. No need to chew someone out for a simple thought.

Thinning the herd comment is pretty lame. I personally think taking certain risks is cool. However it's cool to me... meaning I want to push my personal envelope. Expand my experience. Does it mean I'm going to randomly hop on the back of a Tandem?... Think about it logically. The answer in case it actually needs to be said is no.

I applaud forward thinking. Telling a guy he's going to kill himself because he wants to see a picture and is teaching himself to fly is pretty obnoxious in my opinion.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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