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Sangi

Trick with tandem

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The video is gone [:/]



I know... I removed it.

Not sure about the original video you're asking about. I've definitely seen it. Can't remember if it was on skydivingmovies.com or not. Can't find any record of it. I remember that it was filmed in Europe though.

Dave

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Slightly off-topic.

There's a tandem videography "tribute" on skydivingmovies. One of the camera flyers goes above the tandem and "twangs" on the drogue bridle.

Is that something that would get you in a lot of trouble?

What is someone unintentionally ended up above a tandem? What typically happens then?





By "get you in a lot of trouble", did you actually mean "get you and others killed"?

Not sure about the shaping of your questions, but does it matter whether something dangerous is intentional or unintentional? The potential outcomes are the same.

To everyone: Why do you think it is called the "Cone of Death"? Maybe because it is a safe area to fly into, or perhaps not (death = good or bad)? There's a reason this cone exists above AND below the tandem.
SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)

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Why? Is this trick not allowed?



Ah, the poor ignorant skydiving novice! I can see how someone with about a hundred jumps might get confused.

The novice knows that it is "normal" to hang outside an airplane like a C-182 or King Air, despite the danger to multiple people if a parachute is deployed at that point.

The novice sees videos of 4-way or freefly teams doing transitions or maneuvers overtop of each other.

The novice sees the cool photos of hybrid jumps with a jumper hanging below a couple belly flyers, and even better, of someone standing on top of the group. It is obviously something to aspire to, and accepted by national organizations like the USPA, CSPA, and BPA, all of which have shown hybrids on the cover of their official magazines in the last year or two.

But if a novice mentions something similar with a tandem -- even when thinking about jumps with only experienced jumpers -- the novice is going to get slammed for even daring to think such wicked thoughts about obviously dangerous behaviour!

Every society has its taboos and you just found out about one of ours.



(But it is true that tandem rigs have additional complexities and dangers, and involving real students is much more frowned on.)

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Ah, the poor ignorant skydiving novice! I can see how someone with about a hundred jumps might get confused.

The novice knows that it is "normal" to hang outside an airplane like a C-182 or King Air, despite the danger to multiple people if a parachute is deployed at that point.

The novice sees videos of 4-way or freefly teams doing transitions or maneuvers overtop of each other.

The novice sees the cool photos of hybrid jumps with a jumper hanging below a couple belly flyers, and even better, of someone standing on top of the group. It is obviously something to aspire to, and accepted by national organizations like the USPA, CSPA, and BPA, all of which have shown hybrids on the cover of their official magazines in the last year or two.

But if a novice mentions something similar with a tandem -- even when thinking about jumps with only experienced jumpers -- the novice is going to get slammed for even daring to think such wicked thoughts about obviously dangerous behaviour!

Every society has its taboos and you just found out about one of ours.



(But it is true that tandem rigs have additional complexities and dangers, and involving real students is much more frowned on.)



That is very well put. I fail to see the distinction between a stunt or pushing the boundary when a tandem parachute is involved (with all parties consent) and other types of stunt (chuteless jumps etc). The fact that I would not push those boundaries is irrelevant others should be free to.

It is interesting watching this debate - I know that there are similar arguments about almost every aspect where people deviate from the "herd".
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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Yes, sorry you got roughed up a bit. Thanks for asking the question and I hope you had it answered, however obliquely. :D Anything can happen on any jump, and anytime you are directly over any jumper, an accidental early deployment can be very dangerous. Preplanned maneuvers among experienced jumpers is one thing. They've accepted the additional risk. Adding risk to a new tandem passenger= unacceptable. :)

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in reply to "when a tandem parachute is in use"
______________

Exposure to Liability....for the manufacturer:|based on behavior of those outside of their control...

those who WANT to try such a thing are welcome to attempt it.. but the completion and bragging of it,, might earn them less respect rather than More...

not sure how it is in Europe, cause i'm not sure who builds the tandem equipment that is used....and whether manufacturers can create a condition of the sale , which assures no exposure to lawsuits...

but In The USA...
Isn't Tandem still done, under An FAA waiver ,which has been the case since Ted Strong and Bill Booth,,,, first Pioneered the technique??:|
or

Has that changed in the last couple of years? ( i'm not a Tandem master )....

I only say it's a poor idea, and for the very reason i mentioned...
Don't get me wrong i DO enjoy creativity which is well thought out, and correctly performed..... as much as the next guy....hell tv shows are made of such things...B|;);)

But still, there's a fair degree of imitation and mimicry within those imaginations of many a jumper...( did you see an earlier post which i made )...sometimes less experienced, sometimes with POOR results...

NOW in all fairness
to the Original poster,,, I do apologize for turning his curious interest in the actual event....and desire to see it, into a treatise,,, on whether or not you ought to DO it !!!!.:S:S....
so I AM sorry for that...[:/]:(

I'd be interested in seeing it too.....
but would likely store it away in the "don't try This" category.....

denete...;) thanks for the 'term' i was looking for,,, in describing the area above and below the tandem.....might rather call it "Cone of Uncertainty"...;)B|..still well worth staying away from...:o:|[:/]

jmy

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It was up there for a while, but the original discussion around the "questionable tandem" eventually led to it being pulled.

I had the video online after it vanished from SDM, but I pulled it after the TI and his lawyer contacted me.
I really don't know what I'm talking about.

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No, you probably misunderstood me :)

I meant when the drogue is already released. The guy is standing on the tandem, the drogue is released and he is holding to it, it looks really awesome.

Here's a rough sketch of what I meant :D



Why settle for a cheap imitation when you can have the original - I believe the attached is what you're referring to...
Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

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I know I'm going off-topic with this post (according to the author) but I'd like to say that just today I saw a paper hung up at the DZ that lists the requirements for jumpers to jump with sigma tandems.

-500 Jumps
-At least 100 jumps within the last year
-At least x number RW jumps
-Tandem rating or AFF JM.

These numbers are just how I remember them and are in no way to be reliable or used. I don't know if your local DZ uses sigma rigs or not, but if the law is this way over here for these certain rigs, I don't see why it shouldn't change just based off the general safety policy. While standing on a tandem and holding the drogue may look cool, so may watching somebody play Russian Roulette.

Editted to say that I bolded the one requirement because it came as a shock to me, because the rule is probably highly ignored, and in any liability issue, sigma will most definitely pull that sheet out of the book (for you video guys who don't meet that req, just something to think about)

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SIGMA TANDEM SYSTEM OWNER’S MANUAL

These guidelines are not optional. They must be followed, or the Tandem Instructor and Tandem rig owner will be in
violation of the User Agreement under which Tandem jumping is operated and will consequently no longer be
allowed to legally perform Tandem Jumps.

PARTICIPANTS QUALIFICATIONS

For any relative worker to accompany a Tandem pair, the following criteria must be met:
1) Relative worker must have a minimum of 500 relative work skydives; or
2) Relative worker must be either a current Tandem Instructor or a current AFF jumpmaster.
3) Relative worker must have made at least 100 relative work jumps in the last year.
4) Cameramen must meet all the above guidelines, and in addition, must have at least 100 camera jumps.

RW TANDEM BRIEFING

If the Tandem Instructor does decide to take a relative worker on a jump, a briefing must take place before the jump
between Tandem Instructor and relative worker which covers these points:

1) No one should ever pass directly over or under the Tandem pair in freefall or droguefall. On exit, the Tandem
Instructor needs room to deploy the drogue, and at any time after that, the drogue could suddenly become a
deploying main canopy.

2) Once under the drogue, the Tandem pair has very little ability to change drogue fall velocity or to move horizontally
(track). This means they can’t get out of the way of someone who is closing too fast or someone sliding under them.
Therefore, NEVER let anyone who is not a skilled relative worker accompany a Tandem pair on a dive (see fatality
report section).

If the grips are taken, take them on the student, not the Tandem Instructor.

3) Because the Tandem pair cannot track very effectively, they must obtain opening separation by opening higher
than everyone else. Accompanying relative workers must not attempt to open their main canopies with the Tandem
pair. A minimum of 1000' vertical separation is required - to avoid collision situations.

BRIEFING REVIEW

To review: when you dirt dive Tandem drogue relative work, tell the participants four things.
1) Give me room to deploy the drogue in the first five seconds after exit.
2) NEVER pass directly over or under us.
2B) Grip the student, NOT the Tandem Instructor.
3) Approach slowly and dock gently.
4) Wave-off signal given at 6000ft
5) Let me pull first at 4,000' or above, and give us at least 1000' vertical separation.

REMEMBER: If you delay drogue deployment, you eat up altitude at a much faster rate than when the drogue is
deployed. See Tandem freefall chart on page 72.

Relative work with Tandem increases the possibility of accident and injury. However, it can be done if approached with
care. On every Tandem jump, the Tandem Instructor is in charge. If Relative Work is being contemplated, the Tandem
Instructor should have personal knowledge of the relative worker and should feel confident in their abilities.

WARNING

With regards to relative work, please consider this. Tandem jumping in essence is a “student training” jump. It almost
seems ludicrous to involve a “non-certified jumper” during a tandem jump. You would not allow this to happen in
other forms of student training, why allow it to happen here. Especially since it has already proven fatal on several
jumps in the past.

CRW PROCEDURES

CRW IS POSITIVELY BANNED ON ALL TANDEM JUMPS UNDER ANY AND ALL CIRCUMSTANCES (see fatality section).
This guideline is not optional. It must be followed or the Tandem Instructor and Tandem rig owner will be in violation
of the User Agreement under which Tandem jumping is operated and will consequently no longer be allowed to
legally perform tandem jumps.


----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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You know, I have a set plan of action for a video-guy or dumbass in tow with a tandem. After they have wrapped up in the drogue, they get a little bit of time to fix themselves and hook knife to safety. After that I pull the RSL shackle, I pull the cutaway handle and then I pull the drogue release. They are now 100% on their own while I save my student and myself from their fatal mistake (while tracking away for what I consider to be enough distance before deploying the reserve).

Ever time I have a new video guy/gal at my DZ that is just starting to jump with tandems doing video, I make sure I explain this in gruesome detail so they understand what they're getting into.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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See, now everybody is jumping to conclusions. That guy is a hero. He's obviously tying to tell some unseen jumper above to get out of the "cone of death" in the interest of keeping the tandem pair safe. He should get some sort of award.



:D

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off topic, never heard about a tandem crw fatality, what, were and how?



Tandem fatality #2.

From the Tandem Vector manual:

#2 - Current Tandem Instructor
1349 jumps total - 62 tandem jumps.
Second Tandem of day for Tandem Instructor. Pair
exited Cessna 182 at 8,500’. Normal opening at
4,000’. After opening, Tandem Instructor released
both side connectors; released reserve static line
(stevens system) and pulled out both upper snap
safety pins. Then did CRW and had wrap at 3,000’.
Other solo jumper cutaway - reserve OK. Tandem
cutaway at 2,000’. Passenger and Tandem Master
separated at lower connector points almost immediately
and went violently unstable until impact. For
first part of fall after cutaway, Tandem Master was
attempting to grapple with passenger to gain control.
During latter part of fall, Tandem Master stopped all
activity as if trying to fall stable. No attempt to open
reserve was observed.

Dave

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SIGMA TANDEM SYSTEM OWNER’S MANUAL

PARTICIPANTS QUALIFICATIONS

For any relative worker to accompany a Tandem pair, the following criteria must be met:
1) Relative worker must have a minimum of 500 relative work skydives; or
2) Relative worker must be either a current Tandem Instructor or a current AFF jumpmaster.



According to #4 below, this applies to outside video. Is it considered "not RW" if they don't make physical contact? If simple proximity classifies it as RW, then what's the effective radius - 10'? 20'? 100'? Next group out the door? I don't want to sound facetious, but is this specified somewhere?

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3) Relative worker must have made at least 100 relative work jumps in the last year.
4) Cameramen must meet all the above guidelines, and in addition, must have at least 100 camera jumps.


BRIEFING REVIEW

To review: when you dirt dive Tandem drogue relative work, tell the participants four things.
1) Give me room to deploy the drogue in the first five seconds after exit.
2) NEVER pass directly over or under us.
2B) Grip the student, NOT the Tandem Instructor.
3) Approach slowly and dock gently.
4) Wave-off signal given at 6000ft
5) Let me pull first at 4,000' or above, and give us at least 1000' vertical separation.



Didn't I count six things?
Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

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Why settle for a cheap imitation when you can have the original - I believe the attached is what you're referring to...



Yes! That's exactly what I've been looking for!

THANKS!
"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

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I can assure you, in no uncertain terms, that is not a "cool" skydiving pic.

I sincerely hope you have read what some of the more experienced guys have posted, as well as the manual that JP posted.

You would be wise to heed it and not glorify fucking idiots.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

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Why settle for a cheap imitation when you can have the original - I believe the attached is what you're referring to...



Yes! That's exactly what I've been looking for!

THANKS!

you forgot : Now where can I get the video :P
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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it is requests like the op's one, that make me dread sites like youtube and sometimes skydivingmovies. no matter what kind of horrendous shit you are going to post, there will be tons of people just saying "wow, how cool" :|
The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

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you forgot : Now where can I get the video :P



Already found it.

The guy goes under a tandem (like a hybrid) holding onto the student and the other guy gets on top of it like in that pic holding on the drogue... And there are a bunch of other guys going SF/HD around the tandem...
"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

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So basically, it's a big taboo to do this kind of trick with a first time jumper right?

But it is ok if all of the people involved are experienced jumpers and know the risks right? I mean if they die, they knew the risks, so it should be ok?
"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

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Surely after all this discussion you cannot be serious!?!?!?!
Really????????

It's not big taboo with low jump numbers or a million jumps.
It's just plain stupid.

Risk me and my tandem student like that and I will punch your fucking lights out.:|

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