cutaway or not to cutaway

[pojj 0]

hi jumpers just want to no peoples views on pilot chute out to full extension but wont open container,some views are that you dont need to cutaway just deploy reserve but others say cutaway because if main starts to deploy wile reserve is you narrow the chances of entanglement if main is disconected from risers(cutaway) your views would be much apreciated

[collinb 0]

my EP is to deploy reserve and then cut away in this circumstance. I feel like a cut away first then deploy reserve the is a chance the risers from the main could if a cover has come off tangle with the reserve. I deploy the reserve, then when it is out cut away so if the main opens it can just "fall" off my back away from me as I have forward motion from the flying reserve

I have had many discussions with people about this specific procedure, I believe both have good and bad points. I have chosen to do it with the cut away second.

Just decide what you want to do and build that into your memory management/EP review process every jump and KNOW what to do in every situation, don't hesitate, especially with a pilot chute in tow, and do it.

talk to your instructor, decide what you think is best and drill that into your memory/reaction

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Based on what I have read, experts "agree to disagree" on this matter.

Given that this is a "high speed, no time to get fancy, holy crap Batman", malfunction... my vote goes for simplicity. Others may be confident of their ability to use different procedures for different mals... I like uniformity. Cutaway then reserve. It is considered an acceptable approach and I like it 'cuz it is the same as the EP for many other mals. Simple brains demand simple solutions.

Do what you are comfortable with. But no matter what, if you are on a collision course with a very large ball of dirt ... don't waste time figuring out what is wrong and planning a remedy... get a canopy overhead NOW.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[rwieder 0]

If i had a PC in tow i would try first to pull on the bridle to unseat the closing pin on the main container ( Low Timers, DO NOT EVEN LET THIS CROSS YOUR MIND ) If that fails i'd pull my cut away handle to my main parachute, then i'd deploy "Plan B" I don't utilize an RSL, so it keeps me on my toes at deployment time.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[RMURRAY 1]

Quote

If i had a PC in tow i would try first to pull on the bridle to unseat the closing pin on the main container ( Low Timers, DO NOT EVEN LET THIS CROSS YOUR MIND ) If that fails i'd pull my cut away handle to my main parachute, then i'd deploy "Plan B" I don't utilize an RSL, so it keeps me on my toes at deployment time.

I agree with this except I would not cut away a main unless I was VERY confident that I would be free and clear of it. deploying a reserve into airspace that is not clear is a "crapshoot" - avoid the situation by maintaining your gear (for example, I get new PC every 500 jumps), packing yourself and don't borrow gear.

R

[jimmytavino 16]

years and years ago ( waaay before the days of the cypres ) i had a pilot chute in tow. due to (here's one for the history buffs)... a twisted belly band.....

NOT just a weak P C or an overly tight closing loop....
the pin on the main container PULLED.. the bag was out.. and bouncing around on my back...but the bridle was attached to my hip...
i was using a piggyback H/Container,,,
and going FAST..
The drag from the pc put me head low and feet low and in a spin.... Yikes
i wasted a few seconds snatching at the bridle, thinking it 'caught ' on something,, then looked DOWN, and saw the peas... ABOUT THE SIZE i was used to..... when setting up Final, on an Accuracy shot....
WHOA!!!!
I took an instant to throw a strong arch,,,, got flat.. and FELT the d bag, hit me on the back of my thighs... at which point i fired my Blast handle ( another one for the history buffs ) , and Bang!!!! 26 foot LoPo reserve.. the mess from my main was STILL attached to me,,, so a cutaway ( R3's ) would have worsened the situation,,, IMHO...
The main stayed in the bag,,,about 2 or 3 linestows from opening...
I was able to pull the bag in towards me, and stuffed it between my legs for the 500 feet or so,,,from reserve deployment to landing....
... if you think "slow is fast"..
I can testify that Fast is FASTER!!!! especially if you're under a 36 Inch parachute.. (p.c.)
Things happen quick....best to be quicker.....and cutting away takes time..even if it's just a second or two.. I'm GLAD i was NOT AAD equipped at that time,, since that device WOULD have fired my reserve WHILE i was in the spin and working things out,,,, before I was READY to introduce the reserve myself...

I used to pull a LOT lower than i do today.... and that situation came at the end of an 8 way jump,,, where we "held it JUST a little longer" than we should have....

ps landed that round, IN the pea gravel.


jmy

[Andy_Copland 0]

Side note:

Has anyone got the video of that fucking guy climbing up his bridle and pulling his PC into his arms before dumping out his reserve?

Faaaarking legend!

Also dont try that.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Cutaway then reserve. It is considered an acceptable approach and I like it 'cuz it is the same as the EP for many other mals. Simple brains demand simple solutions.

I'd like to think skydivers who have earned even the most basic of license can be more adaptable than this.

I prefer and train that a PC in tow involve no cutaway prior to a reserve deployment, and the reasons are two fold.

First: Time. Imagine that you deploy at 2500 AGL, and experience a PC in tow. You will spend about 5 to 6 seconds diagnosing and trying to remedy the problem. At 176feet per second(120 MPH) you'll be at 2000 feet when you start your emergency procedures STILL GOING 176feet per second.Pulling a breakaway handle will take between 2 and three seconds and that IF there is no problem locating it, and extracting it.

Second: If the main does deploy as the reserve container is opened, you have MUCH more control of the main canopy if it is still connected to you.

I encourage THINKING skydivers, and the key to thinking fast and reacting appropriately, is to train for scenarios PRIOR to them happening.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[strop45 0]

Quote

First: Time. Imagine that you deploy at 2500 AGL, and experience a PC in tow. You will spend about 5 to 6 seconds diagnosing and trying to remedy the problem. At 176feet per second(120 MPH) you'll be at 2000 feet when you start your emergency procedures STILL GOING 176feet per second.

Not sure about your maths. If you deploy at 2500', then spend 5-6 seconds thinking, you will be at 1500-1600' when you start EPs. One of the things they taught me in AFF was 5 seconds =1000 feet.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[skyjumpenfool 2]

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If i had a PC in tow i would try first to pull on the bridle to unseat the closing pin on the main container ( Low Timers, DO NOT EVEN LET THIS CROSS YOUR MIND )

Earlier this summer I had a PC in tow situation. After first trying the "shake, shake, shake your booty", I elected to give the PC bridal a tug to open the container. Knowing this is a serious situation that could eisily turn into a horseshoe, I did so with great caution. I only considered this course of action because I was doing crew and was at 13,000 ft. Altitude is my friend!

I made the very serious mistake of telling this story to a student. I was immediately repremanded by an instructor that I have great respect for. He pointed out the fact that we teach students to react to situations in a very planned manner, which does not include this proceedure. So, here is the "Do as I say" for all the students...
Follow your emergancy procedures as planned. I want to emphasise what was said earlier... (Low Timers, DO NOT EVEN LET THIS CROSS YOUR MIND) Follow the emergancy proceedures you were taught.

From the BSR's...
(1) For a pilot-chute-in-tow malfunction, there are currently two common and acceptable procedures, both of which have pros and cons.

(2) An instructor should be consulted prior to gearing up, and each skydiver should have a pre-determined course of action.

Pilot chute in tow procedure 1:
Pull the reserve immediately. A pilot-chute-in-tow malfunctions is associated with a high descent rate and requires immediate action. The chance of a main-reserve entanglement is slim, and valuable time and altitude could be lost by initiating a cutaway prior to deploying the reserve. Be prepared to cutaway.

Pilot chute in tow procedure 2:
Cut away, then immediately deploy the reserve.Because there is a chance the main parachute could deploy duringor as a result of the reserve activation, a cutaway might be the best response in some situations.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[tbrown 26]

Quote

If i had a PC in tow i would try first to pull on the bridle to unseat the closing pin on the main container ( Low Timers, DO NOT EVEN LET THIS CROSS YOUR MIND ) If that fails i'd pull my cut away handle to my main parachute, then i'd deploy "Plan B" I don't utilize an RSL, so it keeps me on my toes at deployment time.

Trying to clear a towed bridle is suicidal. With the punch/drag a pilot chute has, if your PC hasn't pulled the pin, then neither will you. Meanwhile you've wasted precious time and altitude looking for, reaching for and grabbing a bridle you can't clear anyway. Tick-tock, at this point all I can say is I hope you have an AAD. I once knew a guy named Tom DeMotts who was killed trying to clear a pilot chute in tow back in the pre-Cypres days.

So now that you're way low, you want to pull yet another handle that won't save your life either. After you find it, grip it and - oh, don't forget to PEEL it first. Sure hope you remembered to turn your AAD on this morning. If your reserve is open by now it's because you did. Otherwise you're already dead....and management is pissed off because all the tandems suddenly don't want to jump anymore and want their money back.

You've got ONE handle to pull and ONE handle only that will save your life. It's there on the left main lift web. If it's a pillow handle you'll have to peel it anyway, so you'd better get started. Don't try to trouble shoot your rig, just pull that one handle that SAVES YOUR LIFE.

Of course the real answer is to practice proper gear maintenance and reduce the likelihood to as near zero as you possibly can.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[Andy_Copland 0]

Quote

Trying to clear a towed bridle is suicidal. With the punch/drag a pilot chute has, if your PC hasn't pulled the pin, then neither will you.

Bullshit. Why do people really believe this? Im not saying do it but its still bullshit.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[Megatron 0]

Correct me if Im wrong but a typical PC creates something on the order of 80lbs of force. For those of you who workout (and even those that dont)..lie face down on a bench, put your right arm about where your PC handle is and have someone hand you an 80lb dumbell...see if you can even hold it up for a second. So if your PC isn't creating enough force its doubtful that you will.
The only other way I could see a jumper manually clearing PC in tow is if the bridle is somehow snagged such that it requires a force to clear it that's in a direction other than the one the PC creates. That very specific scenario, in my opinion, is not worth the risk given how little time you have.

My vote is for reserve before cutaway then cutaway as a precaution.

[Andy_Copland 0]

Who says the PC is functioning properly? Is it cocked? damaged?

By all means id dump my reserve. But simply saying "pulling your bridle will not help" is silly.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[Megatron 0]

Quote

Who says the PC is functioning properly? Is it cocked? damaged?

By all means id dump my reserve. But simply saying "pulling your bridle will not help" is silly.

thats a good point...regardless of the cause the best course of action seems to be go for the reserve unless there are other complications.

[strop45 0]

Quote

Who says the PC is functioning properly? Is it cocked? damaged?

So if it isn't cocked or is tangled or is damaged to the point where it doesn't pull the pin, what good does manually pulling the pin do?

The other situation is where a perfectly good PC is struck in your burble. Having a look has generally cleared this for me at about the time I'm looking back for my handles.

Stay safe

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[tbrown 26]

Quote

Who says the PC is functioning properly? Is it cocked? damaged?

By all means id dump my reserve. But simply saying "pulling your bridle will not help" is silly.

You don't have the TIME to work this out. You're falling at a thousand feet every 5.5 seconds. First, you have to sense that "something is wrong". THEN, you have to look over your shoulder and start groping for your bridle, until you find it (maybe). THEN you have to give it a yank and evaluate the results.

You really don't have the time to go through this bullshit. Just ask Tom Demotts - oh, wait, he bounced back in '81.

My point, is that when you have a HIGH SPEED malfunction like a p/c in tow is that you have no time left but to do the one thing that can SAVE YOUR LIFE. Fucking around with your bridle is what's called "improvised rigging". It's a fatal mistake when you have a high speed. I knew someone who tried it and died for his mistake. If you think you're smarter, then go for it, I'll cite you as a more recent example (that's cold - but I will).

Pulling your 3 ring won't save your life either. I personally witnessed an incident where a woman blew up her reserve after not being able to extract her main p/c. After her reserve blew up and streamered, she damn well got her p/c out with a huge adrenalin rush and opened her main at about 100 ft. She landed and collapsed in a sobbing heap, but she lived. I do NOT believe in cutting away any canopy that has not yet been deployed.

Look, the simple truth is that a p/c in tow is both our worst nightmare and almost completely preventable. We have too many people with packer mentalities who don't know Jack shit about the gear that saves their life on every single skydive they make. They don't pay attention to the condition their pilot chute is in, until it nearly kills them. Or actually does kill them.... Proper maintenance and doing their own packing could reduce the chance of this worst case ever happening to one in a million.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[rwieder 0]

Quote

Trying to clear a towed bridle is suicidal. With the punch/drag a pilot chute has, if your PC hasn't pulled the pin, then neither will you

I hate to break it to you like this, but i guess i'm suicidal. I had a PC in tow (24" Jim Cazar PC W/ Cobalt 170^2, Javelin J-4) pulled on the bridal and unseated the closing pin. The only thing that happened to me is the risers bitch slapped me at line stretch, cut my face and busted my nose. I was a bloody mess when i got down. Cleaned up and got packed went right back to jumping. Nothing hurt but my pride when everybody asks me what happened to my face. P.S. This was a 3,500 AGL deployment. Many moons ago.

I know of several other individuals who have employed this exact teqnique, i didn't make it up all by myself, i was told how to do it from an upjumper, not an instructor.

Now that i fly with Cameras and video Camcorders this is no longer an option.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[popsjumper 2]

Put me in the "Immediately deploy the reserve" school of thought.

-No time wasted
-No possibility of loose main risers flopping around getting entangled with the deploying reserve.
-I can cut away the main after reserve deployment, if necessary.
-or, in worst case I at least have the opportunity, no matter how small, of retrieving an entangled main out of the reserve that's flying.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[skyjumpenfool 2]

Remember, as I stated above... When I did this, I was at 13,000ft. Time was not the issue. Even with enough altitude, this is a dangerous situation.

Students... Follow your planned Emergency proceedures!

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

I had a PC in tow (24" Jim Cazar PC

There's the problem.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[tbrown 26]

I hate to break it to you like this, but i guess i'm suicidal. I had a PC in tow (24" Jim Cazar PC W/ Cobalt 170^2, Javelin J-4) pulled on the bridal and unseated the closing pin. The only thing that happened to me is the risers bitch slapped me at line stretch, cut my face and busted my nose. I was a bloody mess when i got down. Cleaned up and got packed went right back to jumping. Nothing hurt but my pride when everybody asks me what happened to my face. P.S. This was a 3,500 AGL deployment. Many moons ago.

I know of several other individuals who have employed this exact teqnique, i didn't make it up all by myself, i was told how to do it from an upjumper, not an instructor.

Give or take the broken nose, I'm glad you're okay. I know people get away with stuff like this, but there have been others who didn't. Why take the risk ?

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !