Why can't I pull my front risers?

[GPSJane 0]

Canopy: Pilot 168
Loading: 1.2 : 1

When I first got my canopy I complained that I could not pull down on my front risers at all. People just looked at me weird.

Recently my boyfriend and I jump each other's canopies. He said that it was very hard compared to his his. Granted, he is much stronger than me so he could pull a little bit but his is much softer (he has a Sabre 170). Since his canopy is much the same size and the loading similar I would like to know why there is a difference?

We discussed the reasons why and obviously the design of the canopy has to be part of it. We also wondered if loading has got anything to do with it?

Anyone with answers?


PS I don't want to do much with it yet - just playing around.

Only skydivers know why the birds sing; they don't have to pack a parachute!

[theonlyski 3]

ive found that it is MUCH easier to:

Flare the canopy, like you do for landing, all the way down untill you feel yourself swing back a little

bring your hands up, and pull down on the front risers

make sure you are playing way up high for this, youll probably get a pretty good dive out of it.

eventually the risers will pull out of your hands, just let them go

my 2 cents... im no canopy expert, but thats what I do for the front riser dives

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
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[Rookie120 0]

I have never jumped the pilot so I dont know how heavy they are. I have never had trouble pulling the fronts down. Maybe you just dont have enough ass to pull them down.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[DougH 270]

Pilots have higher front riser pressure from some, but you just may need to eat a few cheeseburgers.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[JohanW 0]

(Funny, your profile lists a wingload of 1.0)

Yes, loading has an effect on the ease with which you can pull on your frontrisers. As you load it higher, it gets harder to pull and keep them down. (Which is weird, from a theoretical standpoint, now that I think about it.)

And the design of the canopy is definitely a factor. Your canopy, when flying with you under it, creates lift; in normal, unaccelerated flight exactly as much as your weight. This is distributed between front and rear risers. But not necessarily in equal portions.
Leaning with the turn (giving harness input) may help to keep the canopy in a diving turn after initiating it with a trick like mentioned above. Harness input by itself won't do much, but the effect builds with speed.

I don't know if the front riser pressure of smaller canopies of the same make and model is actually lower (still creating the same amount of lift in unaccelerated flight, after all), or that the effect is more pronounced. It seems to be lower to me. Harness input definitely does more on smaller models. But I would not advise you to downsize for this reason *alone*.

And your boyfriend may indeed have more upper arm strength than you. I'd expect an average man to be stronger than an average woman, no surprise there. Hit the gym?

Johan.
I am. I think.

[fastphil 0]

I'm trying to learn something here. Why would loading have any affect, isn't it still the same amount of ass, just spread over a different amount of area...

[JohanW 0]

I know. I can't explain it from a theoretical angle, but it seems to be true anyway.

I definitely can *not* for the life of me pull down on a front riser of a Foil or a Manta. (Both ~280. And the inch that I can doesn't do anything.) It's heavy on 170s. It's lighter on 120s. (Katanas aren't canopies, they're butter. )

That's more of a difference than might have been explained by front riser input having more of an effect on smaller canopies, which could have accounted for a different perception between the respective canopies.

Why would loading have any effect? I don't know. But it does.

I suspect you know all of this. Smarter people than us will have to jump in here ..

Johan.
I am. I think.

[JohanW 0]

I can think of one thing that may, from a theoretical perspective, have an effect.

After you start pulling on a front riser, you accelerate the canopy. Accelerating the canopy means it's not lifting as much, so the front riser pressure diminishes. Cause and effect are pretty much interchangeable at this point, I couldn't say which one is the chicken and which one is the egg. But while accelerating, riser pressure diminishes.

On smaller canopies, this effect might explain a part of the decreased riser pressure; the initial effort, for however short a period of time, should be the same regardless. It does not feel that way, so I'm guessing this is not the whole story. But it might very well be a part of it.

Or I might be talking out my @%% anyway. Kallend or BrianG are welcome to set me straight any time. Or anyone, really.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[kallend 1,621]

Quote

I know. I can't explain it from a theoretical angle, but it seems to be true anyway.

I definitely can *not* for the life of me pull down on a front riser of a Foil or a Manta. (Both ~280. And the inch that I can doesn't do anything.) It's heavy on 170s. It's lighter on 120s. (Katanas aren't canopies, they're butter. )

That's more of a difference than might have been explained by front riser input having more of an effect on smaller canopies, which could have accounted for a different perception between the respective canopies.

Why would loading have any effect? I don't know. But it does.
..

Is it WL per se, or are highly loaded canopies just more likely to be trimmed differently than Mantas and Foils? The distribution of load between front and rear has a whole lot to do with the trim of the canopy.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jsaxton 0]

I am not a canopy expert, instructor, or anyone who should be considered a credible source


but, I have found that front riser pressure can be greatly reduced by pulling your slider all the way down behind your neck.


Be sure you have some system to secure the slider down in such a way that it does not obstruct your view or slide back up

[randompoints 0]

Lots of good tips here on how to reduce the pressure. I only have a couple of demo jumps on the Pilot and I found it to have the second highest front riser pressure of anything I jumped. I had it loaded at 1.3 on a 132 and could pull myself up and hardly affect the canopy.
Ha try a Storm, that take riser pressure to whole new level on modern canopy.

No i don't think front's make or break a canopy. I think both the Pilot and the Storm are great at what they do. Which is open like butter

[JohanW 0]

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Is it WL per se, or are highly loaded canopies just more likely to be trimmed differently than Mantas and Foils? The distribution of load between front and rear has a whole lot to do with the trim of the canopy.

Sure, distribution of load might definitely be different between different canopies.

I do seem to remember though that a Triathlon 175 had rather a higher front riser pressure than a Tri 120. One would suppose *they* have the same trim. And the same suspended load. (Well, give or take a pound or four. Or six.)

Johan.
I am. I think.

[skybytch 259]

Quote

Flare the canopy, like you do for landing, all the way down untill you feel yourself swing back a little

bring your hands up, and pull down on the front risers

I've found that going to half brakes until I feel the canopy slowing then transitioning to fronts works well too. No need to go all the way to full flare.

[aresye 0]

^^^Agreed. I never go from full flare to fronts. I think it's harder to be precise where you want to fly.

Onto riser pressure. BrianG talks a lot about this in his book, and if I can recall correctly, since it's been awhile, is that riser pressure is influenced from many different factors. Wingloading, trim, airspeed, air density, and the deformation of the wing caused by front input all play a role in what kind of pressure you'll experience.

Now even for high-performance pilots, holding double-fronts can only be done for a certain amount of time. I don't know any pilots that can initiate, and hold a double-front dive for an extended period, but there are some canopies that can allow that. Some canopies have such a long recovery arc, that they have to manually be brought out of it most of the time.

I found the best way to keep a front riser dive going, is:

1. Start in half-brakes.
2. Let the toggles up quickly, but not suddenly, and pull both fronts down a couple inches.
3. Let up on 1 front for a split second, and let the canopy turn and gain airspeed.
4. Let off the front, and then slowly add pressure to bring the other front down all the way.

This method works really well for me when I want to do a 270 (up high). Even coming off of half-brakes, it's harder to simply pull down 1 front riser, and hold it the entire turn, than it is to carve into the turn using the method I stated above.

*Note that this method is what works for me, and on my own canopy at my wingloading. Many canopies have drastic differences in flight characteristics. I strongly encourage the reading of BrianG's book, "The Parachute and its Pilot," for every canopy pilot needs at least some basis of understanding how a canopy reacts in flight.

*Only attempt dives up high, and make sure you keep your head on a swivel. Don't spiral down into other groups, and don't do these moves at all in congested skies. Remember you are increasing your airspeed on a canopy that's designed to fly at a set speed from its trim. With higher airspeed comes the chance of something happening. For example, if you flare your rear risers after a front dive, you can actually very easily put yourself in a high-speed stall.

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.

[Nutz 0]

I haven't seen anyone mention tapered versus non tapered. I have a Flight Concepts Sentry and a Safire 2. (The sentry is my avatar.) I can barely move the front riser on my Sentry and it has little effect. The Safire however,

"Don't! Get! Eliminated!"

[billvon 2,380]

>I always thought it was because my Sentry is square and my Safire is slightly tapered.

It has a lot more to do with than that. I had a Nova 150 that had very light front riser pressure and a Sabre1 150 with much heavier front riser pressure. Both were square.

[jtval 0]

Are you able to do a pull up and hold yourself above the bar? Can your boyfriend?


When I used to fly my 1st canopy (210) I used to lift myself out of the cradle before the caonpy would start turning.


but if you can't do a pull up you may just lack the strength to pull the riser.

The longer you hold the riser the more it wants to pressurize and the harder it gets to hold down.

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[GPSJane 0]

Oh ja, it's higher now. Ahem. No more cheeseburgers.

So I will try the half brakes thing and see what happens. But still my boyfriend (who is way stronger than me) could only pull down the tiniest bit on my canopy compared to the quite a lot on his.

So it must be trim and other design fatures then? Because his is also a square and the same size.

I won't be downsizing anytime soon but my next canopy will be elliptical (a Hurricane 170) and I wonder if I will get a better response on that? Still that's a long way off.

Basically between what everyone says it's a design thing but loading may affect it. So what effect does loading have exactly and why does another canopy have lighter riser pressure than mine? Seems to be a correllation between what my canopy is designed to do (open nicely) and this.

Only skydivers know why the birds sing; they don't have to pack a parachute!

[dragon2 0]

Quote

next canopy will be elliptical (a Hurricane 170) and I wonder if I will get a better response on that

The Hurricane is frankly DANGEROUS on front risers, seen a few of those fold under, not pretty. This is a canopy I would skip altogether but if you gotto jump it do not use the frontrisers below your harddeck for any reason. Seriously. I'd stay with your pilot, waaaay better canopy!

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Thanatos340 1]

I just downsized from my Pilot 188 (1.2 to 1) and yes, Riser pressure was very high on that canopy. It is my understanding that most larger Pilots (when lightly loaded) have very high riser pressure.

I just downsized from the Pilot 188 to a Safire2 169, The biggest difference is how easy it is play with the risers on the Safire.

I also Jumped a Safire 189 Demo before ordering my 169. The Pilot 188 and the Safire 189 at the exact same wing loading.. Big difference in riser pressure (especially the rears). Same great opening on both Canopies.

I loved my Pilot but Front Riser Turns was just one thing that that canopy didn’t do. I could grab my Dive Loops and do Pull ups all day long and the riser would not budge. If I went to half Brakes and then Tried to pull down the fronts, I could hold them about a quarter of a turn before the pressure was just high again.

The Safire2 (189 and 169) I could do a full 360`s (Up high of course) using the front risers.

My guess it is also canopy design and canopy trim to some degree (along with WL and other fators).

[JohanW 0]

Sorry about the cheeseburgers but hey, wingload is good.
Actually, a Sabre is a rectangular square and a Pilot is a tapered square. Essentially, yes, it's a design decision; you'll simply have to try.

No experience with the Hurricane, but I tend to believe Sas on these things, if she says don't, don't. BillVon could probably tell you what might happen, from his experience with a Nova. I hear they had the same tendencies.

Loading a canopy more increases front riser pressure; downsizing to get at that higher loading however may decrease front riser pressure. Again, you'll have to try, it's not an exact science.

Why does another canopy have a lighter front riser pressure? Because it generates lift more towards the back of the canopy, suspending more weight from the rear risers and less from the front ones. Steepness of the trim may also affect riser pressure, the center of lift also affects the length of the recovery arc, which is influenced by the line length, which affects turn rate, .. and the effect from a given deflection on a front riser may be also different according to still more factors.

So in the end, if you want something from a canopy your current one does not do, demo, demo, demo other ones. Or learn to fly what you have, or can get. Remember, it's the Indian, not the arrow.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[Remster 24]

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Actually, a Sabre is a rectangular square and a Pilot is a tapered square. Essentially, yes, it's a design decision; you'll simply have to try.

Just to clarify, the Sabre is square, while the Sabre 2 is tapered.

Remster

[GPSJane 0]

Oh ok, I get it I think.

From what everyone says here though I basically am not going to be able to do front riser turns on my Pilot unless I go lift some serious weights. That's ok. I just wanted to play.

Just to totally change the subject though... this tapered and rectangular square thing is a new concept for me. It makes some sense though because they call the Pilot a semi-elliptical on the box. I am finally getting it.

So why did they do that? What's the difference performance-wise? And what the diff between that and elliptical?

Only skydivers know why the birds sing; they don't have to pack a parachute!

[Skydivesg 6]

I onced watched Jim Hotze almost die on a reasonably calm day in Eloy as he was lanidng his Nova.

He didn't take his gear off. He walked straight into manifest asked for a pair of scissors and cut the lines off the canopy and threw it in the garbage.

I hope you burned your Nova.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[pilotdave 0]

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The Hurricane is frankly DANGEROUS on front risers, seen a few of those fold under, not pretty.

Interesting... the hurricane is very popular around here. Much much more popular than the sabre2 for example. Never seen any issues like that. Very scary.

Dave