speuci 0 #26 January 14, 2009 QuoteQuoteIn addition to license fees, there will be a one time installation fee of $2,500USD. Good luck with that. I agree. Once you've got the early adopters (evangelists) on-board, this may be appropriate, HOWEVER, when you are going after first customers, the value of several reference accounts (in both reputation and free-bug-testing) is HUGE. My advice: Waive this fee for the first 5 clients (and cut the per jump cost) Turn it into an earn-out for the rest. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr17Hz 1 #27 January 14, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteIn addition to license fees, there will be a one time installation fee of $2,500USD. Good luck with that. I agree. Once you've got the early adopters (evangelists) on-board, this may be appropriate, HOWEVER, when you are going after first customers, the value of several reference accounts (in both reputation and free-bug-testing) is HUGE. My advice: Waive this fee for the first 5 clients (and cut the per jump cost) Turn it into an earn-out for the rest. The pricing previously posted in this thread is not the pricing that I decided to go with. Also, moderators had previously requested that I not post or discuss pricing information on dropzone.com, and so this information will be available only on the product's website.Matt Christenson [email protected] http://www.RealDropzone.com - A new breed of dropzone manifest software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jumpah 0 #28 January 15, 2009 I'm psyched to see that your enthusiasm from a year or so ago hasn't faded from when you first started posting about this. Congrats! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr17Hz 1 #29 January 15, 2009 QuoteI'm psyched to see that your enthusiasm from a year or so ago hasn't faded from when you first started posting about this. Congrats! Actually, I've been working on this software since 2006, nearly 3 years have gone by. It has over 5,000 hours of my time invested in it. Skydive Chicago and all of their staff have been extremely helpful in identifying requirements and beta testing the many components of the software, many ideas and features have been scrapped, and many new ideas and features have made it into the product since creating the first specification. The Dropzone Management product itself isn't my end game, my long term goal is the means to allow dropzones to sell tickets on travel sites and other ticket broker sites cost effectively, to increase overall publicity to the sport, and to allow pay-per-sale based online advertising capabilities for dropzones. My means to do so is to first have software at 40-50 dropzones around the US that will allow the transactions to happen electronically (very cost effective). I feel a large contribution to the decrease in growth in our sport has been because dropzones are no longer advertising through effective means. I write more about this in the following article: http://www.realdropzone.com/Documentation/tabid/56/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/1/Introducing-RealSkydiving.aspx I look forward to seeing everyone at the 2009 PIA Symposium. Matt ChristensonMatt Christenson [email protected] http://www.RealDropzone.com - A new breed of dropzone manifest software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #30 January 15, 2009 Those who wouldn't want to spend $0.25 per jump on the software might be surprised to know that some percentage of their jump ticket is already paying for the manifest and business operations. I don't know what that number is for a large DZ but if some software reduces the amount of work then it's worth money. If it means needing fewer staff or even if it means the staff is able to do some additional tasks during the day it's still a measurable amount of money. I was considering writing some DZ management software but considering the number of hours it would take, the small marketplace and difficulty of filling the spec it would be a darn hard job to do and still get paid. Programmers still do need to eat. (Mostly cans of Jolt soda). Imagine if you spent 5000h to write a piece of software. Is that worth $100,000? $20/hr is much less than I'd like to work for. How many dropzones are there in the US? At a grand a pop you'd need to sell 100 copies just to be paid a low wage. Assuming it all goes in your pocket anyway... -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #31 January 15, 2009 QuoteThose who wouldn't want to spend $0.25 per jump on the software might be surprised to know that some percentage of their jump ticket is already paying for the manifest and business operations. I don't know what that number is for a large DZ but if some software reduces the amount of work then it's worth money. If it means needing fewer staff or even if it means the staff is able to do some additional tasks during the day it's still a measurable amount of money. Why would a jumper care where his jump ticket goes? I don't want to pay 25 cents extra per jump for software, but I don't care if $10 of my jump ticket goes toward manifest and business operations. It's not a question for jumpers, it's a question for DZOs. And they know exactly how much of each jump ticket goes toward manifest so they wouldn't be surprised at all. So I'm not quite sure who your reply is targeting. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #32 January 15, 2009 Quote Why would a jumper care where his jump ticket goes? I don't want to pay 25 cents extra per jump for software, but I don't care if $10 of my jump ticket goes toward manifest and business operations. It's not a question for jumpers, it's a question for DZOs. And they know exactly how much of each jump ticket goes toward manifest so they wouldn't be surprised at all. So I'm not quite sure who your reply is targeting. The point is more this: If the software is more efficient then the DZ is saving money. In order to be a successful business decision the software needs to save them more than $0.25/jump. I was never expecting the jumper to be paying $0.25 on top of their ticket. Just some people don't consider that everything in business has a price affixed. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr17Hz 1 #33 January 15, 2009 QuoteThose who wouldn't want to spend $0.25 per jump on the software might be surprised to know that some percentage of their jump ticket is already paying for the manifest and business operations. I don't know what that number is for a large DZ but if some software reduces the amount of work then it's worth money. If it means needing fewer staff or even if it means the staff is able to do some additional tasks during the day it's still a measurable amount of money. I was considering writing some DZ management software but considering the number of hours it would take, the small marketplace and difficulty of filling the spec it would be a darn hard job to do and still get paid. Programmers still do need to eat. (Mostly cans of Jolt soda). Imagine if you spent 5000h to write a piece of software. Is that worth $100,000? $20/hr is much less than I'd like to work for. How many dropzones are there in the US? At a grand a pop you'd need to sell 100 copies just to be paid a low wage. Assuming it all goes in your pocket anyway... I appreciate a more realistic look at what the actual cost of the product is. I quit my very comfortable salaried job to start RealSkydiving 3 years ago. The fact is, by spending the last three years working on RealDropzone™, I’ve given up about $250,000 in income. I’ve been picking up contract jobs here in there to help with cash flow, but I’ve been turning down a good majority of the opportunities that have come my way so that I keep my time free for additional product development. I don’t expect to ever see that income that I passed up again. I passed it up. You see, I’m not doing this for the money; I’m doing this for the satisfaction of giving back to an industry that’s changed my life perspective in a number of ways. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that I’m doing all of this from the kindness of my heart and don’t expect to see some financial return for my investment. I expect RealDropzone license fees to pay back over time, but not right away. Maybe after I’ve got 30-50 dropzones running the product, and 5 years go by… Even then, I don’t plan on sitting on my butt watching subscription fees come in: that income will be reinvested into product enhancements and other software initiatives that directly target the Skydiving industry. Plus, every new customer means increased product support and hosting costs. I have a decade’s worth of projects in my head. From social networking components, to self manifesting on your iPhone, to lobbying the USPA and other industry organizations into establishing and backing non-proprietary document and communication standards for keeping track of data like membership, as well as the capability for packers to electronically sign repack dates. Fact is, half of the potential for technology to improve our sport over the next 10 years hasn’t even been envisioned yet, because the technology doesn’t exist. As an example, think about the potential for when RFID (radio frequency identification, the same technology used in ipass / ezpass / mobilepass) tags get to be pennies a piece, and readers get down to a few hundred dollars each. A zone reader could be placed at the border of your landing area and in the plane’s door – so that simply stepping into the plane with a USPA ID Card (which would have a passive RFID tag in it) would manifest you for that load. And if you land off – staff in the office would instantly know that you did not land on the landing field. RealSkydiving is going to be around for a while, producing solutions that everyone can benefit from. The product being offered at this year’s PIA Symposium is nothing more than a first step.Matt Christenson [email protected] http://www.RealDropzone.com - A new breed of dropzone manifest software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr17Hz 1 #34 January 16, 2009 QuoteQuote Why would a jumper care where his jump ticket goes? I don't want to pay 25 cents extra per jump for software, but I don't care if $10 of my jump ticket goes toward manifest and business operations. It's not a question for jumpers, it's a question for DZOs. And they know exactly how much of each jump ticket goes toward manifest so they wouldn't be surprised at all. So I'm not quite sure who your reply is targeting. The point is more this: If the software is more efficient then the DZ is saving money. In order to be a successful business decision the software needs to save them more than $0.25/jump. I was never expecting the jumper to be paying $0.25 on top of their ticket. Just some people don't consider that everything in business has a price affixed. -Michael Again I want to stress that the pricing being quoted is no longer accurate. Licensing has been adjusted to weigh heavier on Tandem Reservations than Experienced jumpers. For many dropzones this will result in similar prices; however it will depend on tandem / experienced jumper ratios. I have recently published the official pricing which will be used across the board to all dropzones except for the two that have been participating in beta testing. Alongside the pricing document you will find very clear justification for the cost, as well as an excel spreadsheet that can be downloaded for the purpose of experimenting with your own business numbers. http://www.RealDropzone.comMatt Christenson [email protected] http://www.RealDropzone.com - A new breed of dropzone manifest software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #35 January 16, 2009 Although I'm not a potential RealDropzone customer, I am curious: Does RealDropzone support 'flight information displays'? I hope it already does -- it's a no-brainer feature. Many large dropzones such as Perris (California) and NouvelAir (Canada) have flight manifset information displays, displaying load numbers and other stuff. - Load number. - People on the load. - Minute call indicator (20 min call, 10 min call, 5 min call) with color coding. - Information for the next 1 or 2 loads (either in a row-by-row or column-by-column display, or even a scrolling display) Of all systems I've seen, NouvelAir's homegrown system is one of the best I've seen, because it tells me who is on the load (tandems, experienceds, etc) and I've hopped onto a few loads because I saw an RW load being organized on the manifest "public flight information display" in the lobby of the DZ. It's possible to highlight certan names with things like a "RW Organizer" or "Freefly Organizer" or "Coach" suffix, which immediately tells me that an RW load is being organized on load #9 even though only load #7 is taking off right now. Another benefit: A small discreet brandname logo at the bottom of a beautifully-designed flight info display, advertises to travelling experienced skydivers what software you are using, and helps these experienced skydivers to recommend this software to their own dropzone. Make sure that this screen is tastefully fancy and professional looking, with big text easy to read from a far distance across a field (at least critical numbers such as load number and minute call). The easiest way to do this might even just be a customizable HTML template, to allow dropzones to customize the flight information display -- with placeholders to insert load number, time, minute call, and the currently-manifested members of the load. And let somebody else (professional graphic designers) design the flight information display in HTML, perhaps your neighbourhood web monkey kid working on summer job who knows nothing about skydiving. Then it's just a matter of a web control window and inserting the appropriate text in the HTML template then just letting the web control render the HTML. Minimal programming time, since most modern programming languages support embedding HTML in a window nowadays... (In fact, animation can be left to HTML -- driven by JavaScript in the web control object -- if a web designer wants to create a fancy flight information display using your software. It would make the flght information display 'designable' in some commercially available web editors; relieving you of a potential design burden) This perk of NouvelAir's pre-existing flight information display, would be appreciated in RealDropzone. Obviously, this is optional, since it's a lot of effort to classify who's planning to jump, as those decisions are often made in the dirt dive area rather than at the manifest -- but organizer names can be flagged, since they're always jumping for loads. It also helps me become familiar with who are the organizers on the dropzone, just by reading the flight information display -- using a general category such as: tandem instructor, camera jumper, tandem passenger, experienced jumper, coach, freefly organizer, RW organizer. NouvelAir does this. Because of these info displays, loads at NouvelAir has also been reorganized on the fly using drag-and-drop, to remix two separate "3-tandem 10-experienced" Otter jumps into two separate 6-tandem+video (20 people) and 20-experienced plane loads -- when the two separate 10-way organizers noticed at a quick glance on these flight information display that doing this remix was potentially convenient, since they were 6 separate instructors, and enough gear was currently available to have a separate tandem-only load and RW-only load. I don't know how transferring people between planeloads work, but I'm sure that selecting multiple people and swapping them between two planeloads was what was done. (Hopefully you made it easy in your software to swap 10-people groups between two loads. Multi-select people in a load, and move them to a different load, then move a different group of people from that other load back to the other -- essentially swapping groups between two loads). Multiple separate 2-person groups of freeflyers at NouvelAir have often merged into 4-ways, because they saw familiar names on the next 2 loads on the flight information display, and asked the manifest to remix them into the same load. (NouvelAir's flight info display can manifest passenger list info for the next several loads in a rotating fashion, side by side ... with the current load being always visible on the left side as that's the most important load.) Anyway, flight information displays could easily be supported via computer dual monitor support, with the info display being displayed as a separate window on monitor #2. In fact, this is so dirt-easy to program: you could even support more than 2 monitors, with separate HTML templates for each, so you can have one display flight info for current load, a different display display flight info for the next 2 loads, and a different display display minute-call countdown in HUGE full-screen text (with an embedded video or photo-of-the-day on the side).... and you wouldn't even need to do much programming, by simply leaving this as HTML templates that you'd let the dropzone staff design. Obviously, you'd provide some basic templates so that there's an out-of-the-box flight info display. Perhaps the options would essentially be: Support public manifest information displays (requires multimonitor): [Yes] Enter number of separate flight info screens: [3] Template for info display #1: [Generic_currentLoad.html] Template for info display #2: [Generic_nextLoads.html] Template for info display #3: [Generic_minutesCallInMassiveText.html] Monitor number for info display #1: [Monitor 2] Monitor number for info display #2: [Monitor 3] Monitor number for info display #3: [Monitor 5] Refresh frequency (if no status change): [30 sec] Your software could scan the HTML files for template tags such as {LOADNUMBER(+0)} -- displays load number for specified load {MINUTECALL(+0)} -- displays minute call for specified load {PLANE(+0)} -- displays which plane is being used for this load {LOADTIME(+0)} -- displays current estimated departure time for this load {MANIFESTLIST(+0)} -- displays whole list of names, separated by linebreaks (for simpler displays) {PASSENGERCOUNT(+0)} -- displays number of passengers manifested {PASSENGERNAME(+0,1)} -- displays a single passenger name {PASSENGERTYPE(+0,1)} -- displays a single passenger type (tandem, experienced, camera, load organizer) Upon finding these template tags in the HTML control, substitute with the appropriate data, and then let the HTML control object to render the flight control display graphics. You'd scan for everything inside { } brackets. Then within the bracket get the keyword, and all the data between paranthesises. Then parse accordingly. ...Basically first argument being load number increment (+0 means current load, +1 means next load, +2 means load after next one, etc). ...Second argument means passenger number (1 being first person, 2 being second person, etc). A HTML table can have one tag per row, for each passenger, blank being no passenger manifested -- or even a JavaScript loop can even be embedded in HTML to iterate through all the passenger names up to the passenger count, and dynamically adjust font size or scrolling based on number of passengers.... but leave this creativity to the designer of the HTML templates used for the flight information displays. In fact, the HTML template could even use Adobe Flash too (but simply passing the template arguments as parameters in the HTML) -- if a dropzone wanted to design a fancy Flash-based flight info display -- you wouldn't even need to worry about whether Flash was ever used; just that your info display was a standard embedded HTML control object (that often also typically supports plugins too). ...The flight info display HTML templates doesn't even need to use all these tags for each screen, one DZ might want to display a limited amount of info on one screen, and detailed info on a different screen. Modern TV's are getting cheaper and many have computer inputs, and it is now finally becoming more affordable to smaller dropzones to install an extra TV or two, so "flight information displays" replacing chalkboards and whiteboards at certain dropzones. Flat panels that are easy to install on walls, etc of cramped manifest offices and windows. Or even outdoor manifest info displays. I expect "flight information displays" to slowly become a little more popular over time, and I think your software should be marketing this useful feature more. I think this feature probably only needs a few minutes of programming time. Okay, yes, a mild exaggeration, but I'm sure you could program a simple flight information display in less than a day because your software would already be keeping track of who's on the next load. (If you add this feature, make sure closing the application "X" button simply minimizes the application, in order to keep the flight information display always running on monitor #2 ... monitor #2 might be repeatered onto multiple TV's and displays, you don't want that going blank when someone shuts down RealDropzone.) It's just simply a full-screen maximized window with a single HTML control object with no titlebar, something that's very easy to program with most modern programming languages nowadays -- and you'd just use the appropriate API call to display this window on a specific computer monitor. Plus capturing the window-close event to simply make it behave as a minimize (so that it keeps running the flight info displays when you close the main manifest office working window). Maybe even system tray icon too, if time. One day's programming time at most, unless you've chosen a language that makes multimonitor and full-screen HTML dialog windows difficult. I was pretty impressed at NouvelAir's (Montreal, Canada) custom flight information display -- much more useful information than Skydive Perris' own system, although the text was much smaller. A superior hybrid combination of Perris' system and NouvelAir' system would be perfection. And if you used HTML templates and configurable number of multimonitor displays, then any dropzone can make it look exactly like a Perris display, or look exactly like a NouvelAir display, or any custom flight display -- just by designing up a good HTML template (can be crude HTML, doesn't even need to include JavaScript, or can even be designed in an off-the-shelf web editor, or can even have CSS or even Flash or even an embedded advertising YouTube video that autoplays itself, or a self-rotating annual photo album at the bottom-right corner of the flight info display. By letting it be a HTML template, flexibility for the flight information display is virtually infinite) (To the best of my knowledge, NouvelAir is one of the most efficiently-run dropzones in Canada, financially. The owners NouvelAir are also investing in Skyventure Montreal, and they have a near-monopoly in Montreal's skydiving market, also owning Parachute Montreal too. So their manifest system SHOULD be part of your research. I don't know what system they use, though.) You NEED this 'flight information display' feature to help MARKET this software to such a small niche market... Eliminate the chalkboard/whiteboard that announces to everybody who's on the current load, replaced by a sub-$500 big-screen HDTV flat panel running a flight information display.... And most of these HDTV's are all computer compatible now! Many dropzones still use the chalkboard/whiteboard system. Kudos if you already have this feature, but if you do, you may wish to market this under-estimated feature a little better on your website... Tell you what, try to make sure you DEMO this flight info display feature at PIA, using dual-monitor support. (It's such an easy programming addition, so why not?) This feature, alone, is potentially worth over $3,500 to certain dropzones -- and in some cases justifies the purchase of this software solely for this specific feature. (business plan be damned, but a bonus if the dropzone saves money to boot) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr17Hz 1 #36 January 16, 2009 Quote Although I'm not a potential RealDropzone customer, I am curious: Does RealDropzone support 'flight information displays'? Many large dropzones such as Perris (California) and NouvelAir (Canada) have flight manifset information displays, displaying load numbers and other stuff. - Load number. - People on the load. - Minute call indicator (20 min call, 10 min call, 5 min call) with color coding. - Information for the next 1 or 2 loads (either in a row-by-row or column-by-column display, or even a scrolling display) Of all systems I've seen, NouvelAir's homegrown system is one of the best I've seen, because it tells me who is on the load (tandems, experienceds, etc) and I've hopped onto a few loads because I saw an RW load being organized on the manifest "public flight information display" in the lobby of the DZ. It's possible to highlight certan names with things like a "RW Organizer" or "Freefly Organizer" or "Coach" suffix, which immediately tells me that an RW load is being organized on load #9 even though only load #7 is taking off right now. This perk of NouvelAir's pre-existing flight information display, would be appreciated in RealDropzone. Obviously, this is optional, since it's a lot of effort to classify who's planning to jump, as those decisions are often made in the dirt dive area rather than at the manifest -- but organizer names can be flagged, since they're always jumping for loads. It also helps me become familiar with who are the organizers on the dropzone, just by reading the flight information display -- using a general category such as: tandem instructor, camera jumper, tandem passenger, experienced jumper, coach, freefly organizer, RW organizer. NouvelAir does this. Because of these info displays, loads at NouvelAir has also been reorganized on the fly using drag-and-drop, to remix two separate "3-tandem 10-experienced" Otter jumps into two separate 6-tandem+video (20 people) and 20-experienced plane loads -- when the two separate 10-way organizers noticed at a quick glance on these flight information display that doing this remix was potentially convenient, since they were 6 separate instructors, and enough gear was currently available to have a separate tandem-only load and RW-only load. I don't know how transferring people between planeloads work, but I'm sure that selecting multiple people and swapping them between two planeloads was what was done. (Hopefully you made it easy in your software to swap 10-people groups between two loads. Multi-select people in a load, and move them to a different load, then move a different group of people from that other load back to the other -- essentially swapping groups between two loads) Anyway, flight information displays could easily be supported via computer dual monitor support, with the info display being displayed as a separate window on monitor #2. Modern TV's are getting cheaper and many have computer inputs, and it is now finally becoming more affordable to smaller dropzones to install an extra TV or two, so "flight information displays" replacing chalkboards and whiteboards at certain dropzones. Flat panels that are easy to install on walls, etc of cramped manifest offices and windows. I expect "flight information displays" to slowly become a little more popular over time, and I think your software should be marketing this useful feature more. Benefit: A small discreet brandname logo at the bottom of a beautifully-designed flight info display, advertises to travelling experienced skydivers what software you are using, and helps these experienced skydivers to recommend this software to their own dropzone. Make sure that this screen is tastefully fancy and professional looking, with big text easy to read from a far distance across a field (at least critical numbers such as load number and minute call). The easiest way to do this might even just be a customizable HTML template, to allow dropzones to customize the flight information display -- with placeholders to insert load number, time, minute call, and the currently-manifested members of the load. And let somebody else (professional graphic designers) design the flight information display in HTML, perhaps your neighbourhood web monkey kid working on summer job who knows nothing about skydiving. Then it's just a matter of a web control window and inserting the appropriate text in the HTML template then just letting the web control render the HTML. Minimal programming time, since most modern programming languages support embedding HTML in a window nowadays... (In fact, animation can be left to HTML -- driven by JavaScript in the web control object -- if a web designer wants to create a fancy flight information display using your software. It would make the flght information display 'designable' in some commercially available web editors; relieving you of a potential design burden) I think this feature probably only needs a few minutes of programming time. Okay a mild exaggeration, but I'm sure you could program a simple flight information display in less than a day because your software would already be keeping track of who's on the next load. (If you add this feature, make sure closing the application "X" button simply minimizes the application, in order to keep the flight information display always running on monitor #2 ... monitor #2 might be repeatered onto multiple TV's and displays, you don't want that going blank when someone shuts down RealDropzone.) I was pretty imperssed at NouvelAir's (Montreal, Canada) custom flight information display -- much more useful information than Skydive Perris' own system, although the text was much smaller. A superior hybrid combination of Perris' system and NouvelAir' system would be perfection. You NEED this 'flight information display' feature to help MARKET this software to such a small niche market... Eliminate the chalkboard/whiteboard that announces to everybody who's on the current load, replaced by a sub-$500 big-screen HDTV flat panel running a flight information display.... And most of these HDTV's are all computer compatible now! Many dropzones still use the chalkboard/whiteboard system. Kudos if you already have this feature, but if you do, you may wish to market this under-estimated feature a little better on your website... Tell you what, try to make sure you DEMO this flight info display feature at PIA, using dual-monitor support. (It's such an easy programming addition, so why not?) Great input, mdrejhon. Your comments give me a lot of encouragement because RealDropzone has all of the features you’ve just defined. (I assure you they took more than a few minutes to implement!) I don’t have this information on the website yet as I’m making videos “In order”, so to speak – and obviously manifesting is one of the last things that happens at the dropzone. I actually just recently created videos that demonstrate manifesting Tandems, but I haven’t gone over any other jump types yet, before I can do that I will need to train in setting up jump products and pricing. I will likely publish these videos (I’m up to video number 54, I think 1-38 are on the website already) in the next day or two. At that time you can get a preview at how manifesting works and how easy it really is. Until then (I still need to render the high res videos into flash which takes a bunch of time), here are some screen shots to tide you over: Take a look at how data transfers from when it’s entered on the website: http://www.realdropzone.com/portals/0/rdscreenshots/tandemres-onlinegroupinfo.bmp To when it’s worked with in the office for group reservation changes / additions: http://www.realdropzone.com/portals/0/rdscreenshots/rdoffice-fullscreenbliss.bmp To when it’s used for check-ins: http://www.realdropzone.com/portals/0/rdscreenshots/tandemcheckin.bmp To when it’s manifested via drag / drop: http://www.realdropzone.com/portals/0/rdscreenshots/flightmanifestingtandems.bmp To when it’s displayed on video screens: http://www.realdropzone.com/portals/0/rdscreenshots/manifestmonitor1.bmp The dropzone allows for easy check-in of customers as they arrive at the DZ. As soon as they’ve checked in as experienced their names appear in what is essentially an “available to manifest list”. Tandems, AFF/AFP Students, and Experienced jumpers appear in different lists. Manifesting is as easy as dragging and dropping people from each one of these lists. For some lists, such as the tandem student and AFF / AFP students, hold slots are placed for instructors / videographers based on the type of jump being made and an available instructor must be dragged and dropped to the held slot before the flight registers as scheduled. Additionally you can set up “permanent” groups to manifest people as a group, such as teams. Permanent groups allow you to identify team accounts to be used for jump tickets as well as separate pricing. In addition to permanent manifest groups, which are saved from day to day, there are also “temporary groups”. A temporary group is assigned by selecting names from the available to manifest lists, associating them together loosely by giving them a group name. You can then drag and drop the group onto a flight for the remainder of the day; or edit the group at any time. In addition to manifest groups, there are ‘flight groups’. Flight groups allow you to identify people who are jumping together for just a single load, and optionally what kind of jump it will be. These flight groups are blocked together in the manifest display. The ‘RealDropzone Manifest Monitor’ software is essentially a locally hosted website that is designed to be viewed in full screen mode and refresh automatically. Its template is in fact a set of HTML and CSS documents that a dropzone could choose to modify, and of course the product name is mentioned at the bottom in a copyright line for traveling jumpers to see and spread the word Depending on the money that a dropzone wants to spend on hardware, this information could be displayed using old low def TVs, computer monitors, or high-def televisions. You can fit a lot more information on a high-def television because the smaller text is still readable and you don’t have flicker problems due to interlacing. Additionally, even if a dropzone doesn’t want to spend a dime on display hardware, jumpers can still get to manifest information! Because the service is a website; it can be accessed by anyone on their wireless laptops, and even on their iPhones and other internet capable smart phones. Skydive Chicago is closed for the season, so you won’t see any names or flight info, but check out the following URL using the default settings (the query date of 01/01/0001 means to use today’s date). To see where you could find LIVE SDC Manifest information online: http://dz.skydivechicago.com/realdropzone/manifestmonitor/ManifestMonitor.aspx One capability that I would like to add but it will not likely make it into the product until at least next fall is the ability for organizers to do their own manifesting on their laptops, provided that everyone they’ve manifested have already checked-in for the day and have money or jump tickets on their account. This will make it much more likely that you’ll see additional jump type information on the manifest display because it won’t just be up to manifest workers to get it there, but instead responsible volunteers. If you look at the screen shot of the manifest monitor above, the instructor / videographer area of the display is replaced with group jump detail. I won’t have the screen shots done with fun jumpers in it finished for another week or so, but I’ll be sure to update this thread when they’re ready.Matt Christenson [email protected] http://www.RealDropzone.com - A new breed of dropzone manifest software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #37 January 16, 2009 Well, it's cool you're thinking ahead! I actually made an edit to my post, while you were making that reply! (You should re-read my post about that info) Yes, making the manifest monitor screen a website is an excellent idea, since it is very flexible to either view locally or remotely, or even on a separate monitor of the same computer (Internet Explorer maximized on Monitor #2) It might be an idea to support separate flight information for separate displays (please re-read my post above for my ideas), and provide a simple HTML-viewer program to run in kiosk-style mode, that also supports either running on a separate computer or multi-monitor. (There must be free programs that can do this, too -- it's not much more complicated than a "Hello, World" program to display a single HTML URL using an embedded browser object -- more complexity in the multimonitor support) Either way, one of these days I'll go to Skydive Chicago (for some other fun thing) and witness your manifest system in operation. It shall be interesting to see how it compares to NouvelAir and Perris' flight info displays. As a fellow programmer, very interesting project, as long as you're having fun writing the software! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr17Hz 1 #38 January 16, 2009 Quote Well, it's cool you're thinking ahead! I actually made an edit to my post, while you were making that reply! (You should re-read my post about that info) Yes, making the manifest monitor screen a website is an excellent idea, since it is very flexible to either view locally or remotely, or even on a separate monitor of the same computer (Internet Explorer maximized on Monitor #2) It might be an idea to support separate flight information for separate displays (please re-read my post above for my ideas), and provide a simple HTML-viewer program to run in kiosk-style mode, that also supports either running on a separate computer or multi-monitor. (There must be free programs that can do this, too -- it's not much more complicated than a "Hello, World" program to display a single HTML URL using an embedded browser object -- more complexity in the multimonitor support) Either way, one of these days I'll go to Skydive Chicago and witness the manifest system in operation. It shall be interesting to see how it compares to NouvelAir and Perris' flight info displays. Actually, a second monitor can be difficult to work with; particularly because you’d need to get that second video card, and an extra long VGA cable. Skydive Chicago is currently using low def TV’s modulated and wired, but they had also only been using it for student manifesting through last year. When the new season starts I’m going to try to talk Rook into picking up new HDTVs because you can get way more information on them, and you can also pick up solid state computers for around $300 that have no moving parts, are about twice the size of a cell phone, and will connect to the data wirelessly (no wired RF cables saves a good deal of time and money) – you’ll only need to wire 110AC to the location where you want the displays… As for your HTML templates, the solution that I have in place right now isn’t quite as flexible because it doesn’t use tokens so you can’t alter the columns displayed – just how it looks visually and how much to display on the same screen.. However, it wouldn’t be much to change it, in fact, one of my most recent projects was re-doing the Skydive Radio website; and I used similar token based replacement techniques to display show data which is now being stored in a relational database system allowing pages to be generated dynamically. Here is the template defined for the SHOWS page: {ShowDate} - {ShowTitle} {ShowDescription}Show Duration: {ShowDuration} File Size: {ShowFileSize} Download this show... Full Size Image... Discuss this show... And here is a link to the page to see how it’s rendered: http://www.skydiveradio.com/Shows/tabid/81/Default.aspxMatt Christenson [email protected] http://www.RealDropzone.com - A new breed of dropzone manifest software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr17Hz 1 #39 January 16, 2009 I have just published videos that demonstrate some of the flight manifesting and monitoring capabilities of RealDropzone. You can view them by clicking here, and then browsing by Category. The Categories Flight Manifesting and Manifest Monitor will contain the videos that demonstrate the capabilities that you mentioned. http://www.realdropzone.com/TrainingVideos/tabid/57/Default.aspxMatt Christenson [email protected] http://www.RealDropzone.com - A new breed of dropzone manifest software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #40 January 16, 2009 True, you're right about extra long VGA / HDMI / DVI cables being problematic, but one can also use a S-Video or composite output too (standard-def). The good thing is that you developed something that is super-flexible, and works with multiple independent computers too. You're right about separate computer being sometimes easier than multimonitor, and your HTTP based architecture supports this operation. I guess it would be easier for one to purchase a paperback www.fit-pc.com and a cheap flat panel, and presto -- instant flight information display! It has built-in WiFi now, and uses less than 5 watts of power, built-in web browser, and costs between $195 and $295 and even supports Windows XP if you preferred the included free Linux system. Perfect computer for flight information displays! A computer the size of a cigarette pack, it can be mounted on the backside of a TV. (Obviously, Ethernet cable would be better -- it supports that too -- wireless can have many problems if it's at the other end of a dropzone) Splash and dust resistant fanless enclosure, so it can be used as an outdoor computer, as long as the computer is reasonably protected (like in the nook/crannies of an outdoor TV enclosure) So all you probably need is the support for multiple simultaneous templates, for different info displays. They'd simply just be different URL's loading different templates. Either way, definitely migrate to a token-based template system -- much more flexible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr17Hz 1 #41 January 17, 2009 QuoteTrue, you're right about extra long VGA / HDMI / DVI cables being problematic, but one can also use a S-Video or composite output too (standard-def). The good thing is that you developed something that is super-flexible, and works with multiple independent computers too. You're right about separate computer being sometimes easier than multimonitor, and your HTTP based architecture supports this operation. I guess it would be easier for one to purchase a paperback www.fit-pc.com and a cheap flat panel, and presto -- instant flight information display! It has built-in WiFi now, and uses less than 5 watts of power, built-in web browser, and costs between $195 and $295 and even supports Windows XP if you preferred the included free Linux system. Perfect computer for flight information displays! A computer the size of a cigarette pack, it can be mounted on the backside of a TV. (Obviously, Ethernet cable would be better -- it supports that too -- wireless can have many problems if it's at the other end of a dropzone) Splash and dust resistant fanless enclosure, so it can be used as an outdoor computer, as long as the computer is reasonably protected (like in the nook/crannies of an outdoor TV enclosure) So all you probably need is the support for multiple simultaneous templates, for different info displays. They'd simply just be different URL's loading different templates. Either way, definitely migrate to a token-based template system -- much more flexible. Unfortunately I have yet to find a solid state computer that is under the $300 price point and will handle the high resolution of an HDTV. It's also important to get one that can be setup for a portrait display instead of a landscape display; which generally needs to be done at the video card driver level... but the point is, it's a great option that wasn't around a few years ago.Matt Christenson [email protected] http://www.RealDropzone.com - A new breed of dropzone manifest software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #42 January 18, 2009 Actually, that is not always correct. Most HDTV's that support computer inputs will automatically sync to 1024x768 and 1280x1024. Newer HDTV's have excellent upconverters (same upconverter to convert DVD to HDTV), to upscale the VGA image to HDTV images. Older upconverters often pixellated and looked ugly, but newer ones are not a problem for flight information displays. Also, if you really wanted native pixel resolution, there's even a technique already. With PowerStrip software (custom computer resolution creator software), most boxes that are capable of 1600x1200 can be configured to output 1920x1080. PowerStrip is found at Entech Taiwan's website, and I use that software all the time to create custom computer resolutions normally not supported by the computer itself. Even if 1920x1080 is not supported, most $200 and $300 computers can be configured to output to a widescreen computer monitor, inclusive of the common 1280x720 resolution, which is a common HDTV resolution. To the best of my knowledge, the FitPC can be tweaked to output 1920x1080p via its VGA input, but it won't playback video because its CPU is too underpowered. However, static text should work fine. The key word is: Static images, web pages that refresh intermittently -- not a problem. I've even coaxed a sub-$100 used computer to successfully display 1080p static images (from a digital photo album) from a cheap crapass ATI pre-Radeon chipset (worth less than $10). The problem is it won't do video, but it certainly can render static images or webpages. And it's analog 1080p, not digital 1080p. But that doesn't matter too much for a flight info display. Email me if you want. A few years ago, I worked for 4 years programming entertainment boxes for the home theater industry, including video processors, line doublers, multimedia video boxes, onscreen menu systems, etc. I know more than you think about this matter. Now... portrait display is overrated. (That requires a more modern graphics chip, such as a Radeon or Geforce -- but I've seen sub-$300 computers with these -- which MEANS you can download graphics drivers that can do portrait. Even the cheapest oldest Radeon and Geforce cards cost under $50 for PCI or PCI-X brand new, and they all can portrait mode when appropriate drivers are downloaded from ATI's or nVidia's website. Now.... If doing a cost-benefit analysis on display and computer equipment, as well as computer maintenance costs (lifecycle cost), portrait is overrated. I can tell you that landscape is fine -- just display two loads side by side. What do you prefer: a 28" portrait display or a 40" landscape display? According to Pythagorean's theorem (28" diagonal versus 40" diagonal), the 40" landscape display has nearly exactly the same surface area as two 28" display. Just use a template that displays two manifests side-by-side. One 40" display is the same price as two 28" displays these days (approx). So even if the cheap computer can only support landscape... I can assure you that 1280x720 VGA (trapezoid connector) on an HDTV still looks so much superior to Composite/S-Video, and has enough pixels to have perfectly readable text (12 feet away) of all 22 people of a Twin Otter load displaying only on the left half of a 40" display. A sub-$100 used computer (with most video card manufactured after around year 1997....yes 1997...with PowerStrip tweak), is already capable of outputting stationary high-def VGA images, including web browser. Even if portrait is not supported, nearly all video drivers made since 2001 have the hidden ability to do custom computer resolutions, as long as it's below the maximum dotclock. That's why 1600x1200 graphics card from year 1997, can be tweaked to output 1920x1080 -- it's nearly the same dotclock on the video graphics chip. And since the vast majority of graphics drivers already have the undocumented means to support custom resolutions through third party tweaking software such as PowerStrip and other programs, it's possible to add a native resolution of a flatpanel if a native resolution was strongly desired. Now, this is pretty moot, because the fit-pc already supports high-def modes, copy and pasted from website: >>Display: Integrated Geode LX display controller up to 1920x1440 So, apparently, 1920x1080 VGA is not a problem for a sub-$300 water-resistant dust-resistant paperback-size PC... (use an XP or Linux install on a 16GB USB key to make it 100% solid state with NO hard disk, for less than $300) My recent experience show that about 75% of current 1080p flat panel HDTV's already automatically sync to 1920x1080 via the VGA input, but failing that, just simply switch to 1280x1024 or 1024x768, and you'll come arcross a high def resolution that works, and let the flat panel use its upconverter (same upconverter for making DVD look good on a HDTV display) scale it... Modern current-era TV's (even the Walmart cheapies) no longer pixellate text in scaling, and the text will still look much better than on a 480i analog TV even if it's not the native resolution (i.e. 1024x768 converted to the display's resolution) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr17Hz 1 #43 January 20, 2009 mdrejhon, You've clearly put quite a bit of research into this... I will put more research into the particular devices that you've mentioned. Ease of use and setup will be the most important factor because most dropzone's don't have technical staff on site with time to hack around on things that break - If I can find a solutions using a FitPC that is under $300 and easy to set up and use, then I'll go that route for new installations. I appreciate all of the feedback and suggestions. MattMatt Christenson [email protected] http://www.RealDropzone.com - A new breed of dropzone manifest software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #44 January 20, 2009 That's true -- low maintenance is easiest. For that, I suggest forgetting native resolutions and just letting the display upconvert. (Most modern HDTV flat panels /usually/ maximum computer compatibility via their VGA inputs, rather than via DVI or HDMI inputs. Less experimentation needed.) * Default resolution of 1024x768 or 1280x1024 at 60 Hz. Connecting this over good old fashioned VGA cable is still 3x to 5x sharper than SDTV (yellow cable video from old fashioned TV-Out video cards). A good compromise of a lowest-common-denominator that still looks pretty 'high def', and works with the vast majority of modern 1080p flat panels. (If the panel says '1080p', it's typically one of the recent panels with excellent 1280x1024 VGA compatibility) * Use Windows XP so dropzone can treat it like a 'normal computer', with Internet Explorer added to Startup to auto-launch in a maximized window on a specific URL. So you just turn on computer, it loads up to the manifest screen. Obviously Windows XP could probably raise the cost above $300, but Linux can install on a small thumb drive (Even a 1GB USB memory drive), and keep it sub-$300. Although if you sell the display along with the box, it's much easier to tweak it to native resolution of the flat panel (i.e. 1280x768, 1366x768, 1920x1080, etc) Now, if your software takes off (i.e. 10 dropzones buy), it becomes more feasible to do a little custom programming: Use a 4GB USB key running Linux that autoloads FireFox, but with a built-in web server that allows its settings to be remotely configured (without removing the FitPC), such as which URL to load as well as which resolution to run the display at (much easier experimentation). In theory, RealDropzone could scan the local subnet for computer running these RealDropzone-compatible servers and autoconfigure them accordingly. Automatically configured to the point that the dropzones would not even need to know it's Linux. But I'm not sure if it's worth the effort initially. (Just ideas...) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
