ANOTHER downsizing-thread..

[virgin-burner 1]

before anyone jumps at my throat, leave it to yourself. if you got something to contribute, make it useful and constructive.

my first rig was a rectangular sabre 150 that i got with around 60-something jumps, did a canopy-course with it, jumped it successfully for about 140 jumps. already at an outrageous WL of about 1.3. i've gained some weight since, the numbers in my profile should be about accurate.

now i feel like getting something smaller, talked to the chief about it at the end of the season last year, his opinion is, i could get as low as a 119 safire2, IF i spend at least 2 weeks at the dropzone with steady mentoring and coaching on the new bitch.

now, dont get me wrong, i know that at an approximately new WL of 1.6 would put me at things a little more serious.

done all the drills, landed it in a lot of crosswind, downwind, even had off-landings, had to do 180's maybe 60ft above ground-level, all things went well. all that with our "normal" traffic which might be fairly low to whats usual in the states.

so, should i just get a safire2 at 129 which would put me somewhere in the middle whats WL concerned? next (2nd) canopy-course is scheduled for easter.

trying to get into front-riser approaches at the moment, 90°'s and so on.

please, for once, keep the flaming away. this is an honest try at making my decisions, and flaming will just make me do what i'm thinking about already..

probably a hopeless request, but i give it one more try to get something from those forums..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[Andy_Copland 0]

How many times have you stood it up in your last 10 jumps

You know how i feel. I've expressed my opinion and know what you'll do.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[virgin-burner 1]

well, the last 10 i havent jumped at "my" dz where i'm pretty eye-balled. so, i probably stood half of them..

but i know how to safe myself and slide my arse in if need be. or just roll it over for that matter..

other friends that know me and my jumping, have offered me to try their 120 springos..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[DougH 270]

Serious question.

What do you hope to gain from downsizing to the smaller chute?

What are your goals for canopy piloting?

I can definetly see value in wanting to go from a Sabre to a more modern model. I just don't know what you will gain from going to a smaller chute at the same time.

If I put myself in your shoes, where my landings aren't consistent, and I am trying to learn to swoop (a whole new thread altogether), I wouldn't want a smaller canopy to add another variable to the mix.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[ozzy13 0]

Any manufacture will tell you that anything below a 150 is a high performance canopy and should not be jumped until you have 500 jumps minimum.

Here is a guy that was in you situation
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3119689;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

And this is what happened to him

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=6847&string=marko

With that said.

Why do you want to downsize?
Can you swoop your canopy now?
Can you land it in a backyard without any problems?
What happens if you need to bail out of the plane?
Have you reached all performance that your canopy can do?
These are question that you need to ask your self.

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[virgin-burner 1]

serious answer: i wanna become a bit of a swooper, what i promise myself is that i get more out of body-input.. (if that's worded right)

also, the sabre has a very short recovery-arc if i do go on frontrisers. dont know if i really like that in my future ventures of HP-landings.. and thats where i want to go!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[Andy_Copland 0]

I dont think a jump from a square canopy to a semi eliptical, with a downsize is a good idea when he only stood half of his last 10 landings up. I think thats asking for trouble.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

well, the last 10 i havent jumped at "my" dz where i'm pretty eye-balled. so, i probably stood half of them..

So yeah I'd say you're ready to move up to a bigger canopy.

Oh, you wanted to downsize? Come on... you had to ask? If you want to downsize even though you are obviously not ready, go for it. If your own DZ won't stop you, nobody on here will.

Have you considered changing canopies without downsizing? It's crazy, I know. But sorry, you can't be a badass without downsizing.

Dave

[ozzy13 0]

Quote

I dont think a jump from a square canopy to a semi eliptical, with a downsize is a good idea when he only stood half of his last 10 landings up. I think thats asking for trouble.

Not sure where I said he should ????

I dont think he should downsize at ALL. He couldnt even stand the last 10 landings, or have the canopy he is jumping at its peek performance!!!

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[DougH 270]

Quote

serious answer: i wanna become a bit of a swooper, what i promise myself is that i get more out of body-input.. (if that's worded right)

also, the sabre has a very short recovery-arc if i do go on frontrisers. dont know if i really like that in my future ventures of HP-landings.. and thats where i want to go!

If you want to become a good canopy pilot with safe consistent landings and killer swoops then you need a good foundation to build on.

Have you considered changing just the canopy type. Demo a semi-elip with a longer recovery arc, a Sabre II would be a good candidate.

Changing one thing at a time isn't only safer, but it will give you a better learning curve since you will be able to focus more on learning, and less on saving your ass!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[virgin-burner 1]

am about to download, havent watched yet.

i know i can land my canopy withing 2 metres (6ft) of whereever i want to land it.

i know i havent taken out all the performance i could get from the sabre.

i also (believe) to know that this is not a canopy known to be forgiving of mistakes (short recovery arc, again), hence, if i fuck up, i fuck myself up.

should i just get a more forgiving (kinda), newer design, hence a 149 safire2, a 129, or go straight to the 119 as my instructor/mentor recommended. with strict supervision AND extensive training!?

now that i'm asking, i prolly know the answer myself..

and yea, i can land it in pretty much every shit-hole, that i'm sure of. all the places i jump at have plenty of outs, i do think about those things when i get out, or am on the way down..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[DougH 270]

Quote

should i just get a more forgiving (kinda), newer design, hence a 149 safire2, a 129, or go straight to the 119 as my instructor/mentor recommended. with strict supervision AND extensive training!?

My honest opinion is that you can't extensively train away the risk of a downsize you lack the skills and experince for.

You can teach skills in a handful of jumps and class room time, you can't teach the experince that keeps you safe in that same timeframe. That is earned over a long number of jumps.

You may get away with it fine, but don't let you coach fool you into discounting the risks involved here!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[dragon2 0]

Another vote here for a sabre 2 150. Good canopy to learn to swoop on, has a nice recovery arc and at a fairly high wingloading you have already it'll be plenty for you to play with. Not much sense in going to a safire of any size if you want to learn to swoop and even one size downsize sounds like too much for you right now. BTW springos are HP canopies (at any size, think Stiletto) that are also bad to learn to swoop on due to their short recovery arc and not suitable for backriser flight/landings and they are very turbulence-prone, that's a canopy I've jumped for a season I'd stay away from it if I were you.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[ozzy13 0]

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i also (believe) to know that this is not a canopy known to be forgiving of mistakes (short recovery arc, again), hence, if i fuck up, i fuck myself up.

.

Well that's wrong.... Its a better canopy because of that. If you were jumping a canopy like a crossfire, with a longer recovery arc. You would have less room for error. With the shorter recovery arc if you are in a dive and realize that you are to low you can release and come out of the dive quicker. Which is better then if you were jumping a canopy with a longer recovery arc. You can end up with bones broken or worse!!! Good luck looks like you have your mind made up. Just be careful

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[skybytch 259]

Quote

I dont think a jump from a square canopy to a semi eliptical, with a downsize is a good idea when he only stood half of his last 10 landings up. I think thats asking for trouble.

I'd agree. As would many others with way more experience than you, me and him combined.

V-b, if you aren't standing up all your landings now, going faster under something smaller is not going to improve them. If you aren't already adding speed for landing on what you have, why not switch to a more modern design canopy in the same size?

Or in other words, which head are you thinking with?

[virgin-burner 1]

can you elaborate on why not a safire2!?

bla-bla-bla, i'm from a dropzone where everyone jumps icaruses, except the hot boys on velos..
not that i dont like my original sabre, but yea, u know, u get used to stuff you see around..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[DougH 270]

Sort recovery arc, not unlike your Sabre I. Same reason I didn't suggest a Pilot, depsite being a die hard Aerodyne jumper.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[virgin-burner 1]

in this country, ressources regarding canopy-piloting might be very limited. so i just try what i know best.

about the head-question, if i was thinking with my dickhead, i wouldnt of posted ANOTHER thread that prolly turns into a flame-fest.

i feel very ambivalent to my instructors/mentors recommendations and what i feel to be the safer/wiser choice..

i dont wanna end up like the jixter-guy (or whatever hisi name was), that ended up flaring with his fronts..

so, pilotdave, altough i respect you, please, keep it civil!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[virgin-burner 1]

Quote

Sort recovery arc, not unlike your Sabre I. Same reason I didn't suggest a Pilot, depsite being a die hard Aerodyne jumper.

so the sabre2 has a longer arc, as most modern swoop-canopies do, which will suit me better in the long run if i want to keep going the HP-way!?

if i was still keen on going one size smaller, i'd be safer on the sabre2!?



dont get me wrong here guys, i seek for advice, as my head is kinda fucked from what i see and hear from "home" and what i keep on reading here..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[dragon2 0]

Quote

Quote

i also (believe) to know that this is not a canopy known to be forgiving of mistakes (short recovery arc, again), hence, if i fuck up, i fuck myself up.

.

Well that's wrong.... Its a better canopy because of that. If you were jumping a canopy like a crossfire, with a longer recovery arc. You would have less room for error. With the shorter recovery arc if you are in a dive and realize that you are to low you can release and come out of the dive quicker. Which is better then if you were jumping a canopy with a longer recovery arc. You can end up with bones broken or worse!!!

That's backwards. Short recovery arc for swooping means whipping a turn at a very low altitude which leaves you NO room for error. With a canopy with a longer recovery arc you start your turn higher thereby leaving you more time to bail out should the need arise. Of course if you whip a low turn on a canopy with a longer recovery arc you're going to get hurt too but the ability/the need to start your turn a bit higher makes swooping a bit safer. Hence the choice of a sabre 2 over sabre, pilot, safire 1/2, spectre etc.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[DougH 270]

Dave's comment was pretty civil and on point.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[dragon2 0]

Quote

Quote

Sort recovery arc, not unlike your Sabre I. Same reason I didn't suggest a Pilot, depsite being a die hard Aerodyne jumper.

so the sabre2 has a longer arc, as most modern swoop-canopies do, which will suit me better in the long run if i want to keep going the HP-way!?

Yes. Sabre 2 150, sabre 2 135, crossfire 2 129 might (MIGHT, since I don't know you so just a general suggestion) be a sensible progression for you if you are interested in swooping.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[pilotdave 0]

I'm trying to be civil but...

SERIOUSLY?

You came on here to ask a question you already knew the answer to. At least the answer you'd get. Why ask? I know you've read other downsizing threads since you titled this one "ANOTHER downsizing thread." Did you think you'd get different advice than the last guy with 200 jumps that wanted to skip a couple steps in his downsizing progression and start jumping a ridiculously small elliptical canopy? You know the answer, so go do what you want to do.

Dave

[DougH 270]

Quote

Quote

Sort recovery arc, not unlike your Sabre I. Same reason I didn't suggest a Pilot, depsite being a die hard Aerodyne jumper.

so the sabre2 has a longer arc, as most modern swoop-canopies do, which will suit me better in the long run if i want to keep going the HP-way!?

It has one of the longer recovery arcs of the modern semi eliptical canopies canopy models available from the major manf. It also displays less of the negative characteristics the make eliptics canopies a bad choice for less experince pilots: oversteer for example.

Yes, in my opinion the longer recovery arc makes it more suited to learning to swoop than a canopy with a shorter recovery arc that requires lower turns. More wiggle room.

You will have better tools to learn with a SabreII 150 then you will with a Springo 120, or a Safire II 119.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[virgin-burner 1]

Quote

Quote

Quote

i also (believe) to know that this is not a canopy known to be forgiving of mistakes (short recovery arc, again), hence, if i fuck up, i fuck myself up.

.

Well that's wrong.... Its a better canopy because of that. If you were jumping a canopy like a crossfire, with a longer recovery arc. You would have less room for error. With the shorter recovery arc if you are in a dive and realize that you are to low you can release and come out of the dive quicker. Which is better then if you were jumping a canopy with a longer recovery arc. You can end up with bones broken or worse!!!

That's backwards. Short recovery arc for swooping means whipping a turn at a very low altitude which leaves you NO room for error. With a canopy with a longer recovery arc you start your turn higher thereby leaving you more time to bail out should the need arise. Of course if you whip a low turn on a canopy with a longer recovery arc you're going to get hurt too but the ability/the need to start your turn a bit higher makes swooping a bit safer. Hence the choice of a sabre 2 over sabre, pilot, safire 1/2, spectre etc.

that was my understanding, so, which canopy is the safer choice? sabre2 over safire2 if i understood correctly!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda