kimemerson 7 #26 February 3, 2009 QuoteQuote I suppose there's a difference between discussing an illegal activity and discussing one's participation in the illegal activity. There's nothing illegal about BASE jumping per-se. Moab and Twin falls are happy to have us. Other states with a libertarian live-and-let-live attitude have no restrictions surrounding their bridges and cliffs. The Royal Gorge gets extra tourist dollars when they invite us to jump off the brige and tram. Various Native American tribes welcome paying adveture tourists on their lands. The Mexican government likes adventure tourism and media exposure. Presumably the guys in Kuala Lumpor get something similar. All legal. . Well, for the most part each example you cite is either not in the US, or is Indian land (technically not the US) and special occasions (Bridge day) so that for the MOST part, it is indeed illegal, otherwise a number of friends should be able to claim false arrest. Corliss wouldn't have been convicted. As it is, BASE is illegal to the greater extent overall. Exceptions as you cite do not make the rule. So, the exceptions aside, tell me which of the 50 states actually allow BASE as opposed to say, not being strict on enforcing what is a law. There's a difference between having a statute stating what is or is not legal, and simply allowing the illegal to go on anyway. Talking on a cell phone while driving is illegal (NY) but people do it and get away with it even with cops noticing. Jaywalking is illegal in many places but back when Giuliani tried to enforce his "quality of life" laws on New Yorkers, they defied him on the jaywalking thing and I saw grandmothers escorting their wee charges right down the middle of 2nd avenue from one side to the other over to a gaggle of cops who did nothing. Didn't make it legal. And special occasions do not make the rule either. Native American lands: Not the USA Mexico: Not the USA Kuala Lumpor: Not the USA Royal Gorge: Special Occasion All legal. None here. I am supposing the OP is in the USA,rendering most - perhaps not all, but certainly most - of your argument moot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #27 February 3, 2009 Quote Well, for the most part each example you cite is either not in the US, or is Indian land (technically not the US) and special occasions (Bridge day) so that for the MOST part, it is indeed illegal, otherwise a number of friends should be able to claim false arrest. Corliss wouldn't have been convicted. As it is, BASE is illegal to the greater extent overall. Exceptions as you cite do not make the rule. So, the exceptions aside, tell me which of the 50 states actually allow BASE as opposed to say, not being strict on enforcing what is a law. There's a difference between having a statute stating what is or is not legal, and simply allowing the illegal to go on anyway. Talking on a cell phone while driving is illegal (NY) but people do it and get away with it even with cops noticing. Jaywalking is illegal in many places but back when Giuliani tried to enforce his "quality of life" laws on New Yorkers, they defied him on the jaywalking thing and I saw grandmothers escorting their wee charges right down the middle of 2nd avenue from one side to the other over to a gaggle of cops who did nothing. Didn't make it legal. And special occasions do not make the rule either. Native American lands: Not the USA Mexico: Not the USA Kuala Lumpor: Not the USA Royal Gorge: Special Occasion All legal. None here. I am supposing the OP is in the USA,rendering most - perhaps not all, but certainly most - of your argument moot. Unless there was something that I missed, BASE jumping is legal in all 50 states and the territories. and it has the same legal status in all the other countries that you mention. For example, I have jumped from my friends condo 39th floor balcony in Miami, and landed on public beach. I did that at 4AM with noone present. I doubt any charges would have stuck. People have gotten stopped for jumping from hotel rooms that they rented - the cops usually let them go as there's nothing to charge them with. Basically, it's just an activity that most people are not used to, and the sensationalist media blows it out of proportion causing the "common folk" to have a very skewed opinion. It is 100% legal in Twin Falls, and 100% legal in Moab. The only difference is that the city of TF doesn't cite us for jumping from their bridge which has a pedestrian walkway, while some other cities seems to have an issue with it, while others have "no throwing objects from the bridge" signs. I don't believe TF or IDOT has BASE jumping written in their books - it just does not prohibited it. Ya know, 3 levels - Legal, NOT illegal and Illegal ... The bottom line is that I don't think that there's a single citation written out with a charge of "BASE jumping" . The closest one is probably an Aerial Delivery charge in a National Park, which if you are not familiar with it, is absolute BS invented in the 60s for stopping aerial resupply of squatters. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy_Copland 0 #28 February 3, 2009 http://www.backcountryparachutists.org/ The whole national park thing bugs the absolute fucking shit out of me. If climbers can climb we should be able to jump.1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #29 February 3, 2009 Quote http://www.backcountryparachutists.org/ The whole national park thing bugs the absolute fucking shit out of me. If climbers can climb we should be able to jump. I'm not a rock climber nor am I a b.a.s.e jumper but would it be wrong to assume that there are more rock climbing accidents/falls than there are b.a.s.e accidents? And yes, I'm pretty sure rock climbers outnumber b.a.s.e jumpers by far. "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtnesbitt 0 #30 February 3, 2009 Not only are there more climbers than jumpers but climbers tear up and deface the rocks. Jumpers dont leave any sign they were there."If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 14 #31 February 3, 2009 Quote Jumpers dont leave any sign they were there. Look up the Flatbed 10. Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kimemerson 7 #32 February 3, 2009 Maybe the difference would be that BASE, while perhaps not specified, does or can lead to other illegal things like reckless endangerment, welfare of others and a host of other things they can cite you for if they can't nail you on BASE. I believe it's how Corliss was not able to beat his charges even though he never made it over. Suicide is illegal but they can't make the charges stick if you're successful. As for BASE being legal, is it mentioned specifically as being a legal act in all those 50 + territories? Is it a right, so named? Or, as I suspect, is it simply not mentioned one way or another? I believe that when England borrowed from America's Bill of Rights, it was done because rights spell out specifics. Whereas in England until recently they had no such thing so the prevailing rule of thumb was that so long as something was not specifically cited as illegal, it could be gotten away with. Our Bill of rights changes that so that we have rights before we can be harmed. It is in this specificity that I question whether BASE is legal, or not mentioned, thereby allowing other charges to be leveled as a way of making BASE illegal indirectly. You may be right, that if it is not illegal per se charges can be fought. But until and unless BASE is named as an legal activity, it will always attract the law, become scrutinized by the law abiding, and bring some trouble. There are of course places, as you mention Moab. But, correct me if I'm wrong, I honestly don't know, isn't Moab Indian property? Or are there both a Moab belonging to the US and one to Indians? I know I have, but it seems we've veered from the OP's question. Oh well, next. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carrapeta 0 #33 February 3, 2009 Alot of good discussion in here. Yes I am in the US but as another poster stated, Twin Falls and Moab are legal. And as far as I know Moab is not Indian Land. I do see what some other posters have said, regarding "specifics" of certain BASE jumps. That's all good. Any ways, I like the answers posted and I'm not saying the ENTIRE skydiving community hates BASE. But you do get the sense of distaste for it from some. . .obviously I'm not alone in that. Later fellas SirVato If your gonna be dumb ya gotta be tough. Your mom goes HandHeld Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LloydDobbler 2 #34 February 3, 2009 Quote Alot of good discussion in here. Yes I am in the US but as another poster stated, Twin Falls and Moab are legal. And as far as I know Moab is not Indian Land. I do see what some other posters have said, regarding "specifics" of certain BASE jumps. That's all good. Any ways, I like the answers posted and I'm not saying the ENTIRE skydiving community hates BASE. But you do get the sense of distaste for it from some. . .obviously I'm not alone in that. Later fellas SirVato Rich, I'm pretty lost on this topic. Don't think I've ever encountered that sort of attitude towards BASE. I mean, sure, I've seen skydivers call fixed object jumpers 'crazy fuckers' before...but never seen it as a prevailing attitude. I just wrote it off to the old thought that 'most skydivers don't fear heights - they fear lows.' OTOH, I've definitely seen the skydiver backlash towards people jumping non-TSO'd BASE equipment out of aircraft. And IMO, that backlash is 100% justified...but that's a whole 'nother can of worms. For the most part, everywhere I've been (including here) it seems to be viewed as a sister sport. No hush-hush whispering about it. But maybe that's just me.Signatures are the new black. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
heavydude 0 #35 February 3, 2009 BASE jumping has a coolness factor that appeals to all Skydivers I believe...even if they never intend to do it. It has the whole radical outcast appeal going for it. Like Surfing before it was all mainstream and corporate. You gotta love those BASE movies on Skydiving movies.com, after all whats the most popular movie ? Jeb Cs flick. Ive been telling my wife that im taking up BASE jumping but I am really kidding. Its also cool to tell Whuffos your a BASE jumper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eUrNiCc 0 #36 February 3, 2009 QuoteIts also cool to tell Whuffos your a BASE jumper. Only if you're a complete tool. The vast majority of BASE jumpers don't want the whuffo population to have any idea who they are.Egad, A BASE life defiles a bad age. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigbearfng 9 #37 February 3, 2009 Quote Not only are there more climbers than jumpers but climbers tear up and deface the rocks. Jumpers dont leave any sign they were there. ________________________________________________ I don't see as how climbers "tear up and deface" the rocks. Hell, we even have "etho" chalk that's colored the same color as the rock you're on so it doesn't show up! But when it comes to big walls.....you're supposed to pack it out now but.... Base jumpers don't crap in a bag and send said brown bomb below. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #38 February 4, 2009 QuoteAs for BASE being legal, is it mentioned specifically as being a legal act in all those 50 + territories? That's not how it works. Free societies are based on the idea that you can do anything that's not proscribed, not that you can't do anything that isn't prescribed. QuoteI believe that when England borrowed from America's Bill of Rights, Eh? QuoteI believe that when England borrowed from America's Bill of Rights, it was done because rights spell out specifics. Whereas in England until recently they had no such thing so the prevailing rule of thumb was that so long as something was not specifically cited as illegal, it could be gotten away with. Our Bill of rights changes that so that we have rights before we can be harmed. It is in this specificity that I question whether BASE is legal, or not mentioned, thereby allowing other charges to be leveled as a way of making BASE illegal indirectly. You may be right, that if it is not illegal per se charges can be fought. You're confusing two different issues. If it's not banned, it's allowed. You don't need to be told it's allowed.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kimemerson 7 #39 February 4, 2009 Not so that if it's not banned it's allowed. That presumes specificity of acts to ban. As an example, I have rights to protect me against your creativity to harm me. We don't have to spell out what you can or cannot do to harm me. I have the right not to be harmed. A free society does not allow anything not proscribed. That is a false presumption. And certainly proscribing or toleration is not the basis of a free society, or certainly not alone. There's more than just that utter simplistic take. Free societies also protect against harm without naming what harm. What you describe is a tolerance for any behavior not specified as abhorrent. Doesn't work that way. As for the England example, it was recently that they modeled a Bill of Rights of sorts (don't know what they called it) of their own after ours because they had nothing to indicate that the people have rights as opposed to there being laws that only spell out what cannot be done or must be done. The way it was, if it was not specified as illegal, it was allowed. But that's exactly what was targeted and has changed. (I'm an American living in America. If any Brit cares to elucidate on this for me I'd appreciate it.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #40 February 4, 2009 QuoteWhat you describe is a tolerance for any behavior not specified as abhorrent. Doesn't work that way. Yes it does. QuoteAs for the England example, it was recently that they modeled a Bill of Rights of sorts Did we? QuoteAs an example, I have rights to protect me against your creativity to harm me. We don't have to spell out what you can or cannot do to harm me. I have the right not to be harmed.... As for the England example, it was recently that they modeled a Bill of Rights of sorts of their own after ours because they had nothing to indicate that the people have rights as opposed to there being laws that only spell out what cannot be done or must be done. The way it was, if it was not specified as illegal, it was allowed. You're still confusing two different issues. The rights enumerated in the Constitution don't tell you what I cannot do to you, they tell you what the Government cannot make a law to stop you from doing.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #41 February 4, 2009 Quote Why does this seem like a four letter word in the skydive community?? Believe me, I know it's a whole different animal but some times when the word "BASE" is thrown out people cringe like their mother was just bad-mouthed. It's the same reaction you get from many people if you tell them that you ride a motorcycle. I think the reasons this happens are pretty analogous. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
980 0 #42 February 4, 2009 some interesting discussion so far, but no-one seems to have mentioned the following two points: -most DZOs and some staff have been in skydiving a long time and therefore have a good likelyhood of having had someone they knew get injured or killed BASEjumping, or have an image of BASEjumping from back in the day when modified skydiving gear was used and it was inherently way more dangerous than now -just as you get whuffos (let's call them skydiving whuffos for clarity), you also get BASE whuffos. skydiving whuffos say: 'Whut fo you want to jump out of dat perfectly good plane?" BASE whuffos say: "Whut fo you want to jump off dat perfectly good bridge?" A lot of skydivers cannot understand how whuffos can feel skydiving is too risky and like to make fun of whuffos and even use it as a derogatory term. Then a lot of these same skydivers cannot see how anyone could think BASE is not too risky. They are indeed the very definition of hypocrisy and are too blinded by it to see they are BASEwhuffos. They are also likely to be the people who think being a skydivers makes them a real badass and having a more badass activity out there kinda steals some of thunder... It is quite area-dependent and the first point I mention explains that. if you dig around at most DZs that don't like you to mention BASE on the DZ you will find some incident in the past. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para_Frog 1 #43 February 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteThe bottom line is that I don't think that there's a single citation written out with a charge of "BASE jumping" Dood! I have the distinction of being the only one - In Moab, no less. (See attachments) Caveat: It was jeep week - NOT the best time to huck Yellowline. I paid my fine.- Harvey, BASE 1232 TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA BLiNC Magazine Team Member Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jtnesbitt 0 #44 February 4, 2009 Ahahahahaha! Thats awesome!"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites likestojump 3 #45 February 4, 2009 you were cited for "creating a hazard or nuisance". That was the statute. but you are still a tool :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Carrapeta 0 #46 February 4, 2009 Oooohhh shit!! I love the captions!!! Frijol SaltandoIf your gonna be dumb ya gotta be tough. Your mom goes HandHeld Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Para_Frog 1 #47 February 4, 2009 Quotebut you are still a tool :) Word.- Harvey, BASE 1232 TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA BLiNC Magazine Team Member Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeheelbillie 0 #48 March 17, 2009 QuoteOooohhh shit!! I love the captions!!! Frijol Saltando Not sure who said it but, “If it weren’t for airplanes we’d all be BASE jumpers.” Speaking of which how was ID this past weekend…Gently pushing comfort zones since 1976... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #49 March 18, 2009 What? Politeness? Consideration for others? You will never last on a DZ! Tee! Hee! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #50 March 18, 2009 "... there was a one time i visit a neighbor dz...a small one...i gear myself up for a tracking jump, one of the older jumpers came up to me and asked why i had my pants over my legstraps so i told him i was going for a track jump,,,,then he snaped at me and told me this is something only base jumpers do(??),,,and he asked about what license i had,,,he didn`t care about many jumps i had..the situation went pretty weird...it ends with i took myself off my load and never visit this dz again,,,," .................................................................... So a skydiver was ignorant and rude towards you. Wearing pants over leg straps is not a new concept and not limited to BASE jumpers. Someone should tell that grumpy old bastard that all the hot skygods wore their pants over their leg straps back in the 1970s. He was ignorant because he is afraid of the low speed (tracking suit/wing suit) and low altitude (BASE)edges of the envelope. It is one thing to admit that you lack the skills/courage, etc. to explore the edges of the envelope, but a vastly different notion/rude to bad-mouth someone who does. In conclusion, most DZs see tracking suits as good training aids for learning wing-suiting and wing-suiting is welcome at most DZs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
jtnesbitt 0 #44 February 4, 2009 Ahahahahaha! Thats awesome!"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #45 February 4, 2009 you were cited for "creating a hazard or nuisance". That was the statute. but you are still a tool :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carrapeta 0 #46 February 4, 2009 Oooohhh shit!! I love the captions!!! Frijol SaltandoIf your gonna be dumb ya gotta be tough. Your mom goes HandHeld Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para_Frog 1 #47 February 4, 2009 Quotebut you are still a tool :) Word.- Harvey, BASE 1232 TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA BLiNC Magazine Team Member Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeheelbillie 0 #48 March 17, 2009 QuoteOooohhh shit!! I love the captions!!! Frijol Saltando Not sure who said it but, “If it weren’t for airplanes we’d all be BASE jumpers.” Speaking of which how was ID this past weekend…Gently pushing comfort zones since 1976... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #49 March 18, 2009 What? Politeness? Consideration for others? You will never last on a DZ! Tee! Hee! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #50 March 18, 2009 "... there was a one time i visit a neighbor dz...a small one...i gear myself up for a tracking jump, one of the older jumpers came up to me and asked why i had my pants over my legstraps so i told him i was going for a track jump,,,,then he snaped at me and told me this is something only base jumpers do(??),,,and he asked about what license i had,,,he didn`t care about many jumps i had..the situation went pretty weird...it ends with i took myself off my load and never visit this dz again,,,," .................................................................... So a skydiver was ignorant and rude towards you. Wearing pants over leg straps is not a new concept and not limited to BASE jumpers. Someone should tell that grumpy old bastard that all the hot skygods wore their pants over their leg straps back in the 1970s. He was ignorant because he is afraid of the low speed (tracking suit/wing suit) and low altitude (BASE)edges of the envelope. It is one thing to admit that you lack the skills/courage, etc. to explore the edges of the envelope, but a vastly different notion/rude to bad-mouth someone who does. In conclusion, most DZs see tracking suits as good training aids for learning wing-suiting and wing-suiting is welcome at most DZs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
