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OldSchol

Anyone want a Skittle? I mean AFF rating?

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It used to be that a AFF instructor was a person at the DZ who had some time in the sport and was the person to go to when any question arose. A person to look up to. Now it is someone with some extra money and time.
Now does anyone get the feeling they are being handed out like skittles? I am sickend at the if you can afford it, it will come, garbbage I am seeing.
No I am not digging any one CD but definately some of them..
The I will get you through additude. I will never name anyone and this is my first post because I am not good at the computer. Just wondering if there are any older AFF Instructors that probably started out as Jms. out there who are discusted as I am. Now they come out with that rating and expect to be thron on the front lines. In a sick way, I hoe they have a hard student early so they realize how not ready some are. Bring back the old point system for AFF, I do not care if it is subjective or not...thoughts.

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I have done AFF at 2 different DZs... both had the same system in place for newbie AFFIs.

New instructors were paired with seasoned/experienced instructors for a LOT of 2 JM AFF skydives. The experienced jumpers for the most part gave feedback to the newbie AFFI as much as the student, so it was a learning experience for all in those 'real life' situations that no AFF course could possibly cover. After a lot of double jump master jumps, the newer AFFI did a lot of single JM jumps with students known to be on the easier end of the spectrum, before being tossed to the wolves.

I've had to 'prove' myself at two different DZs now before being tossed in with more challenging students on solo jumps, and that's the way it should be.

Edited to add: While you're passing out skittles, I'll take a green one.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

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I worked at a DZ where it started out with myself and another seasoned instructor. We handled all the AFF til the DZO decided he wanted to be an AFF instructor. So, he and another person go thru AFF and decide it's a good idea to start taking all the students up and leave us on the ground. After failing a bunch of really good students and then getting scared when they had a difficult one, he puts the newbie instructor in charge of the AFF @ his DZ. This asshole continued to make more of these types of brilliant decisions again and again. it finally got to be too much and I left. There are some really good places out there, but a few of these ruin it for the others. The sad thing is, the students don't know till it's too late.

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>It used to be that a AFF instructor was a person at the DZ who had some
>time in the sport and was the person to go to when any question arose. A person
>to look up to. Now it is someone with some extra money and time.

Instructors really haven't changed all that much - but I suspect you have. I went through the same sort of thing. The people you look up to when you started out really weren't that good; they were just good compared to you when you started.

Nowadays I see about equal numbers of people complaining about how hard the course is and how easy the course is, which makes me think it's not too far overboard in either direction.

>Just wondering if there are any older AFF Instructors that probably started out
>as Jms.

I started out with a static line JM rating at just over 100 jumps back in '93. People looked up to me back then, but I knew jack shit about skydiving. (Of course I thought I was pretty good at the time.)

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Having earned an AFF rating last summer, I gotta disagree that the ratings are being handed out. That course was the most challenging thing I've done in 19 years of skydiving - more challenging than getting a static line j/m or I was, more challenging than getting a tandem rating was, more challenging than getting and staying on an RW big way was.

While the courses of today are not as mentally and emotionally taxing as the courses of old (which, imho, is a change for the better), there are still plenty of opportunities for candidates to mindfuck themselves out of the rating. And it ain't all about showing up and paying the money either. I know several people who've been sent home from recent cert courses because they weren't ready - and they had plenty of money.

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Now they come out with that rating and expect to be thron on the front lines.



Not every new rating holder expects that. The majority of my jumps so far have been done with an instructor who has logged more AFF jumps than I have total jumps. That's the way I wanted it, and it's the path that was suggested by the person who rated me. The "I'm ready for anything" attitude comes from the ego of the person with the new ticket or from the dzo who puts a freshly rated instructor on a single instructor Cat D. It does not come from the course director.

One change that I would like to see in the process is the addition of a time in sport requirement. We require 3 years in sport of our amusement park ride operators; the same standard should apply to those who are actually teaching people to skydive.

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One change that I would like to see in the process is the addition of a time in sport requirement. We require 3 years in sport of our amusement park ride operators; the same standard should apply to those who are actually teaching people to skydive.



I could not agree more with this statement.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

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It used to be that a AFF instructor was a person at the DZ who had some time in the sport and was the person to go to when any question arose. A person to look up to. Now it is someone with some extra money and time.
Now does anyone get the feeling they are being handed out like skittles? I am sickend at the if you can afford it, it will come, garbbage I am seeing.
No I am not digging any one CD but definately some of them..
The I will get you through additude. I will never name anyone and this is my first post because I am not good at the computer. Just wondering if there are any older AFF Instructors that probably started out as Jms. out there who are discusted as I am. Now they come out with that rating and expect to be thron on the front lines. In a sick way, I hoe they have a hard student early so they realize how not ready some are. Bring back the old point system for AFF, I do not care if it is subjective or not...thoughts.



My troll detector is going off.

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One change that I would like to see in the process is the addition of a time in sport requirement. We require 3 years in sport of our amusement park ride operators; the same standard should apply to those who are actually teaching people to skydive.



I'd agree w/that, even though it would have discluded me from challenging the course a couple months ago).
The new scoring system is more challenging/difficult (according to three different CD's I've spoken with) as it brings a compromise between the point system and the former, more broad Sat/UnSat system of three sections only. Have a look at the new 2009 IRM.

Couple people were not successful in my course, the course I saw occurring this past week had a couple unsuccessful candidates, and at least one of them was a very capable skydiver with a lot of jumps.
I've not been thrown on any front lines. The way I see it, I've earned the right to be learning alongside the more experienced people on the front lines.

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The way I see it, I've earned the right to be learning alongside the more experienced people on the front lines.



And it only took ya 13,000 jumps. Impressive!

Dave



:D:D You're one of the few to notice. It ws a typo that I chose to leave when I saw a guy go from 1700 to 4000 jumps almost overnight. Sort of an inside joke among a few of us.:ph34r:
Besides, I read somewhere a moderator can have as many jumps as he wants? I should probably change it back. Or I can be *really* optimistic for the 2009 season??:D

FWIW, I'm really glad I waited that long. I'd done several observations of Cat C AFF jumps from the camera slot in the last 2 years and flew as a hands-off observer during a few Cat D jumps last year as well. Could have challenged the course last year, but also wanted more jumps and more airtime with some better relative workers over the winter.

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I would like to think that, regardless of the scoring system, the CDs would not stamp anybody that wasn't ready by a large degree.

Does it happen? Sure it does...slap the CD, not the candidates unless they are "shopping for ratings".

Funny how rating holders earned under the point system do not like other scoring systems.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Ok... Maybe a troll, maybe not. However, I will tell you this... if you earned a rating with one of the well known & respected CDs out there, you EARNED it.

I was one of those that did not make it last week (as Douglas alluded to). I now know I need to spend some time on my belly. Sure, I can burn a hole in the sky doing belly to earth military jumps, but there is MUCH more to it. Oh, and don't spend the last 1000+ jumps freeflying :P

In these courses, as Pops suggested, you will need to demonstrate your abilities "by a large degree". At least with Jay you will... No gray areas.
Don't be sexist… Broads hate that.

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It used to be that a AFF instructor was a person at the DZ who had some time in the sport and was the person to go to when any question arose. A person to look up to. Now it is someone with some extra money and time.
Now does anyone get the feeling they are being handed out like skittles? I am sickend at the if you can afford it, it will come, garbbage I am seeing.
No I am not digging any one CD but definately some of them..
The I will get you through additude. I will never name anyone and this is my first post because I am not good at the computer. Just wondering if there are any older AFF Instructors that probably started out as Jms. out there who are discusted as I am. Now they come out with that rating and expect to be thron on the front lines. In a sick way, I hoe they have a hard student early so they realize how not ready some are. Bring back the old point system for AFF, I do not care if it is subjective or not...thoughts.




Well back in the day you guys used to put students out with a 100 jumps. What did you guys really know at a 100 jumps. The sport is changing The learning curve is higher now. People progress faster now.

What Im tired of is old timers saying back in the day they did it this way. Its not back in the day;)

USPA set standards. Whether they are right or wrong thats what they are. If someone meets those requirements they get the rating. For you to complain about someone having money or time is just silly.

Rant done

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I was one of those that did not make it last week (as Douglas alluded to). I now know I need to spend some time on my belly.


I was under the impression the jumps that were unsuccessful can just be redone until you either learn it or get lucky, or go to another CD to retake the jumps that were unsat? What ever happen to the if you are unsuccessful then you must wait 12 months, thought process? From my observations.
I agree 100% with a time in sport requirement as stated above, (3 years, min.) also I would love to see a number of coach jump requirement, or a time period after earning a coach rating, even better.
remember as a AFFI you will be responsible and in some cases in charge of coaches, how the hell can you be thrown into that setting with minimal coaching? Boggles my mind.
I am also a fan of the old AFFJM rating, as a JM you would start at reserve side or at lower levels under the tutalidge of a senior instructor. At which time he or she feels you are ready you can slowly start taking on more responsibilities. Similar to a pilot and 1st officer. You just do not get handed the keys to a 737 because you are a pilot. You learn from senior pilots and gradually take on more responsibility.
FYI: I did go through the old point system with Don Yarling in 93, I do realize times have changed but I do know that the responsibility of someone elses life has not.
and yes I want a RED Skittle.

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I was under the impression the jumps that were unsuccessful can just be redone until you either learn it or get lucky, or go to another CD to retake the jumps that were unsat? .



Perhaps that is why so many old timers diss the new method. You can retake precourse jumps until you are comfortable, but when you say "game on" You get 4 tries to get 2 sats on Cat C (main & reserve) and 1 sat on a Cat D. In other words Once it is "game on" you got 3 shots to get two Cat C sats. If you took all three attempts to do it, then you have one chance on your Cat D. If you get your 2 sats for Cat C in 2 jumps, then you have 2 jumps to get 1 Cat D

steveOrino

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...which is really no diferent than the point system requiring that you get X number of jumps to accumulate Y number of points.

If the CD thought your jump was "satisfactory" he gave you points, if not, few points or no points.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I suspect a large part of the dissension nowadays is a matter of perspective.

When you you were younger, AFFIs in your eyes, were gods. Nowadays, having more experience and knowledge, you learn that they are indeed not gods.

Today, young jumpers think AFFIs are gods...they will soon learn, with time and experience, that they are not and then become disillusioned.

Don't get me wrong...there really ARE some AFFI GODS out here! I wish I was one of them.
Hopefully...someday....

Hopefully, we are not condemning young AFFIs who have not yet "earned their wings". Extremely very few newly stamped are top-o-the-line right out of the box.
Time and experience will tell the good from the bad and the ugly.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Perhaps that is why so many old timers diss the new method. You can retake precourse jumps until you are comfortable, but when you say "game on" You get 4 tries to get 2 sats on Cat C (main & reserve) and 1 sat on a Cat D. In other words Once it is "game on" you got 3 shots to get two Cat C sats. If you took all three attempts to do it, then you have one chance on your Cat D. If you get your 2 sats for Cat C in 2 jumps, then you have 2 jumps to get 1 Cat D




All I am going to say is it depends on the CD, and if he has the guts to take someones coin and then tell them they are not ready.

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I like that time in sport requirement, though. If a jumper racks up 500 jumps in year one, and 6 hours of freefall. In theory, he can get his AFFI in 12 months from entering the sport.. What would be so bad about a 3 year in sport requirement, 1000 jump, D License, Coach Rating + 100 documented coach jumps with students.... I guess I will get crushed but the worst case is some good people will have to work a bit harder or wait a bit longer...

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That's more along the lines of our rules:

AFFI needs to have:
D license
3 yrs in sport
500 formation jumps
of which at least 50 successful linked exits
be a HI ("help instructor", more than a coach but less than an I, this rating requires at lease 2 yrs in sport and some other stuff)

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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What would be so bad about a 3 year in sport requirement, 1000 jump, D License, Coach Rating + 100 documented coach jumps with students.



Can't disagree with you. If you feel strongly about it, why not approach the BOD with a request to put this on the agenda? Why would you be crushed? Aren't you already an AFFI?

[edit] ~~Relevant discussion

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