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mattz

logbooks

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sorry if this poll or thread has been done before. i recently had a situation of trying to get current after about 5 yrs off with 330 skydives. my logbook is MIA and my "home" dz said i had to do some sort of aff progression so i could be "felt" out, due to the fact, from what i understand, cause my logbook was missing. that sounded expensive so i said F- that called another local dz and got current for 50 bucks with gear rental. ya i know safety first when it comes to skydiving i just found it to be frustrating.

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a quick review of the SIM will tell ya that a $20 recurrency jump is not the normal practice

apparently everything worked out OK - at least so far
Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

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i would reckon that the logbooks are pretty NB as they wont let us jump at a new DZif you dont have proof of any previous jumps... unless someone (with pretty good credibility and that knows the people you know) still in the sport can vouch for you i suppose...

Im all for safety first, BUT, i would not want to do the whole AFF thing along with the massive prices just to prove that i have jumped before...

just my two cents...
Take it easy... and if you get it easy, take it TWICE!

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you didn't say what was meant by "some sort of AFF progression", that could be a whole range of options

assuming you had a C license and depending on who remembered you and what they remembered, it would at least involve a review of certain parts of the first jump course - emergency procedures, equipment, exit, freefall & canopy control

the depth of these reviews would depend on how well you remembered certain critical things

after the review and the jump a decision would be made if further jumps were needed
Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

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If I was a bogus, stupid wuffo and I wanted to get over on somebody, I would study the book a little and go to the DZ that you went to. Bingo! I'm jumping with no proof of ability...AND doing it on the cheap!!

Please don't name the DZ. At least make the bogus, stupid wuffos do some heavy research to find the place.
:S

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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i would reckon that the logbooks are pretty NB as they wont let us jump at a new DZif you dont have proof of any previous jumps... unless someone (with pretty good credibility and that knows the people you know) still in the sport can vouch for you i suppose...



Logbooks are very important if for nothing else than personal records of what you've done, where and with whom.

At one time I kept detailed, in depth logs listing names, winds, distance to target, aircraft N #...then I quit logging for several years 'cause that's what the koolkids did.
Now I just update once a month from the computer/beeper in my lid.

For me proof of 'currency' is rarely an issue even though I never travel with a logbook...never lost one that way.

An in date PRO Rating usually will suffice, if not I have my DZO on speed dial.

I highly recommend to n00bs that ask, they keep an accurate, well worded log entry for each jump...and keep the record safe.

There will come a time you'll be happy ya did! B|










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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I started using a Neptune for a log book at around jump 600 and I back it up to my computer at home. I also have nearly every jump since jump number 435 on video from my perspective. I keep all my video and never over write any tapes.

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I haven't logged any jumps in a very long time. It just isn't that important to me. If I remember correctly, I probably stopped logging when I had around 300 jumps - a 'C' license.

The only time I was asked for proof of jumps was when I traveled to Perris. I then walked over to Square 1, bought a new logbook, put in two recent entries, and submitted it for approval. They accepted it.

Since then I've gotten my Coach, AFFI, Tandem, and Pro rating and was never asked for proof of jumps. I've also traveled to countless new DZ's and had my USPA credentials accepted without question. Having all of the instructional ratings may have something to do with it.

Some people value the social aspect of a logbook, but I don't - so that's fine.

_Am
__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

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I got an Alti-Track early on, so I have most of my jumps logged on my computer. I like the graphs and details.
But, I know how much stuff I have lost off of computers, so I keep a written version too.
I know what it feels like to come across old log books from my diving days, and reading stuff from 30+ years ago encouraged me to keep up with it now. It makes a great autograph book and place to jot down phone numbers and emails too.
I'm not sure how important the 12 hr freefall thingie is but I'm there. Having the logbook proves it, if anybody cares. Getting there in less than 500 jumps is probably rare.
So I'd say keeping a logbook is a good idea. How much good it would do after 5 years off is debatable, and probably wouldn't have made much difference in your case anyway. They can be faked, if someone wants to, and don't mean much to some folks, but I'll keep mine, accurate and signed.
But what do I know?

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Since then I've gotten my Coach, AFFI, Tandem, and Pro rating and was never asked for proof of jumps.



Then the people handing your ratings to you failed in their most basic duty to confirm that you had tohe requirments to hld the rating. Shame on them.
"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

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So, someone with 5 years off and a low number of jumps comes to my DZ. Documentation of the jumps or not the person is going to sit through a FJC. They will also do at least one jump with an instructor. From there they will be evaluated to see if they need any other jumps with an instructor or not to confirm they have the basic skills needed to jump safely with other people.

The problem here is not that the first DZ was going to provide you a structured program to safely get back into the sport; that is what they are supposed to do. The problem is that you didn’t have any proof you were ever a skydiver. It sounds like they took an appropriate and reasonable course of action. I actually disapprove of the actions of the second DZ. While you saved a few bucks they probably actually did you a disservice.

Please don’t disparage the first DZ; they took a reasonable course of action given your lack of any evidence you were actually a skydiver at one time in the distant past.

To everyone, logging jumps is an inconvenience. But it is also required by the USPA as documentation of experience. One needs it when they show up to a DZ, ask for licenses, ratings, etc. Some DZ’s have asked me for a logbook, some have not. But I am prepared when I show up. It is MY responsibility to prove I am who and what I say I am, and documentation is how that is done. I find it disappointing that people so lightly say they just forge a logbook. What if pilots did this (and then showed up at a DZ and wanted to fly) or CPA’s or EMT’s?
"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

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Then the people handing your ratings to you failed in their most basic duty to confirm that you had tohe requirments to hld the rating. Shame on them.



Shame on you for being ignorant and judgmental.

There are FAR better ways of verifying ratings than an easily faked, self-signed log book.

Oddly, of all the 4 ratings I had, each one was from a different course director. Ignoring unreliable logbooks is far more common than you suspect.

_Am
__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

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Then the people handing your ratings to you failed in their most basic duty to confirm that you had tohe requirments to hld the rating. Shame on them.



Shame on you for being ignorant and judgmental.

There are FAR better ways of verifying ratings than an easily faked, self-signed log book.

Oddly, of all the 4 ratings I had, each one was from a different course director. Ignoring unreliable logbooks is far more common than you suspect.

_Am



Ignorant and judgmental? Please. Resorting to personal insults just shows the weakness of your position.

While logbooks CAN be faked so can most anything. Signed logbooks ARE the basic standard of proving jump numbers. I applaud anyone that goes further like viewing the computer system of a DZ , or a looking at a ditter or talking to staff member at a DZ to help confirm jump numbers or experience... Oh those things can be faked or misrepresented too. Hmmm…

EVERY rating I’ve received I had my logbook reviewed and my credential reviewed.

Just because a log book can be fraudulently produced does not mean it has no value. Again, it is the basic and acceptable format for showing experience in the sport.

Just because you choose not to log your jumps does not make it a superior position to logging them.
"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

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Just because you choose not to log your jumps does not make it a superior position to logging them.



I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth.

I never said not logging is superior. To each his own. If you want to log, go ahead.

However, to be under the delusion that it's required to get ratings is exactly that - a delusion. Skills verification through a logbook is the worst way to do it, the book is easily faked, and I've gone through the procedure 4 times with 4 different course directors - none of which looked at my log book.

They were smart enough to figure out more accurate ways to verify my credentials.

For you to accuse them of anything but the highest ethical standards is pure ignorance.

_Am
__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

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Question... What reason besides checking track of your freefall time and numbers would you keep one after you receive your D?

There really is no other reason. You also dont need to get it signed after that point. Once you get your D there is no other verifications that need to be met. Im i right or wrong?

I do keep my log book up to date.
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

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If you are an instructor you have currency requirements. What if you went to a different dz and wanted to work there. A log book could verify that you are within the requirments for tandem and AFF currency. As for actual practice, I don't know what is the norm.

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Just because you choose not to log your jumps does not make it a superior position to logging them.



I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth.

I never said not logging is superior. To each his own. If you want to log, go ahead.

However, to be under the delusion that it's required to get ratings is exactly that - a delusion. Skills verification through a logbook is the worst way to do it, the book is easily faked, and I've gone through the procedure 4 times with 4 different course directors - none of which looked at my log book.

They were smart enough to figure out more accurate ways to verify my credentials.

For you to accuse them of anything but the highest ethical standards is pure ignorance.

_Am


I don’t have to put words in your mouth you’re the one saying that written documentation signed by a third party (a logbook) is inferior to another method. So I’ll cry uncle and admit I’m wrong and you’re right if you explain what this mysterious un-forgeable proof of experience is. It surely isn’t a third party’s verbal assurance, which is of course inferior to written assurance. It’s not a pro-track, it’s not a printout from a DZ which is easily forgeable. So what is this mysterious un-forgeable proof of experience?

And I’m not questioning the Course Directors behavior; you clearly missed the point. I’m questioning the veracity of your statement that 4 separate course directors never asked to see your log book. I do find it likely they either asked to or you approached them in advance and said you didn’t have it. They were willing in lieu of a logbook to accept something else - possibly a printout from your home DZ of your jumps and a confirming call or conversation with the DZO or something such as that. That does not mean the alternate method is un-forgeable or superior. It means they accepted something other than the basic standard of proof of jumps used in the sport which is a written logbook signed by a third party.

Sorry guy but your argument is not persuasive and frankly it’s not even lucid much less cogent. But again, I am willing to admit I’m wrong if you can explain to me what form of proof is not subject to forgery or dishonesty. In the mean time written documentation witnessed by a third party is still the gold standard in the sport and in most fields.

BTW: I hate to log but I do it anyway. Why Because it eliminates ever having to ask someone to accept something in lieu of my logbook as proof of experience or currency.
"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

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logbooks???

sure. there are 12 of them sitting on a shelf, right here...B|

some of 'em have 100 jumps in them, some 150 ,and a few of them held 500 jumps...
i have a variety of styles and sizes....from the "ten jumps on a page" to the "2 jumps on a page"...:):S:D:D


i'm glad i have them and i'm glad i kept them accurate....

they are true documentation of where, when, with whom i made a jump and sometimes even contain an explanation of WHY???
...i was making a skydive...:) i try to list the names of others on the dive,, if i can...


i don't often look through them, but when i do, i smile..
Logging jumps, just as a pilot logs his or her hours, always made sense to me...and i thought from the start, that it was a sensible thing to do...

lately it's been quite easy,,,,,to log my jumps... ( i'm simply not making as many jumps , as i once did....[:/]:(:()

Don't believe Me????
look in my logbooks!!!!

once at a boogie, i asked some skydivers who were in the 20 to 30 year age range,,,,
to tell me the day and year of their birth...

i checked the list against my log books, and found that in 3 cases, not only WAS i jumping before they "were born"... but had actually made one , or more skydives ,,, on the very DAY of their birth...
hahaha.. you can't prove That sort of thing....without a log book...:P;):)

jmy a 3914
d 12122
POPS 3935
nscr 1817

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If you are an instructor you have currency requirements. What if you went to a different dz and wanted to work there. A log book could verify that you are within the requirments for tandem and AFF currency. As for actual practice, I don't know what is the norm.



your renewal to USPA each year is when you need to be verified that you are meeting your currency for your rating.

As far as going to a new dz they can verify from your old dz. I think if they are just looking at your log book for verification of what you did as a instructor is pretty scary if you ask me. As stated above it can be falsified
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

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I love logging! I look forward to it when I get down from a jump. But I'm weird :)
But yeah I can see where it can be frustrating if you've lost your logbook and a new dz won't let you jump. Although if there's no way to prove that you're a current jumper than I can't really blame them.

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My written logs experienced a decline when I got my neptune. Also, the problem I ran into was I didn't want to take the time after each jump to fill it out, I wanted to pack and get on the next load as soon as possible. Then at the end of the day, when I might still remember the details of the jump I did at 10 in the morning, I was more concerned with finding a student with beer and bullshitting. I will go back and log very memorable jumps, however (Night 5 way WS Jump, Thanks Z-Hills!).
Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

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