0
SivaGanesha

coach jumps or solo jumps?

Recommended Posts

If a student has graduated from AFF and is now working towards their 'A', what would you recommend--if funds are a bit of an issue--that their focus be--coach jumps or solo jumps?

The tradeoff here seems to be that one can learn a lot more on coach jumps but on the other hand if one REALLY wants to get some jumps in, solo jumps will be less expensive and easier to get more jumps in.

Obviously some coach jumps are needed to get signed off for the 'A' but other than that where should the priorities be?
"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Neither, go find a DZ where people will jump with you for free.



Actually I haven't asked about costs yet so I really don't know whether people would jump with me for free or not.

But I guess I was assuming that at a minimum I would offer to buy the coach's jump ticket as a gesture.
"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You'll need to do at least two jumps with a coach or instructor to get the requirements in Cat F and G signed off on your card.

Personally, I think you're better off doing solos where you pull high and work on canopy control until you have the A license, for two reasons. First, once you have the A license you can jump with anybody instead of only with an I, coach or D license holder. Second, more people die or hurt themselves from mistakes made under good parachutes than from mistakes made while doing RW, thus it makes sense to me to focus on survival skills instead of group freefall skills at this point of your skydiving career.

We do have a couple of groups of fun belly fliers at Davis that will likely be happy to jump with you (at no extra charge) once you get the license. Find me next weekend and I can introduce you to them.

For the solos you will be doing, check out the canopy sections of the dive flows for Cat D-H in the SIM and plan to do some of those drills on each jump (I'd be happy to help you plan your jumps if you aren't sure which drills to focus on).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you know a lot of ppl at your DZ, just approach someone and say "hey, if i cover your slot can you help me with (insert skill set here)?"

Depending on the jumper and what they have going on they might or might not have you cover their slot. Either way it's cheaper than a coach jump and you can going to get a LOT more out of it then a solo jump. If possible, ask someone who has video as well. If you are comparing your learning curve to the economic cost jumping with someone who has video (and doesnt charge you for it) will save you a LOT of money because you can learn more from it.

If you arent comfortable approaching someone like that then ask your AFFI to recomend someone. Thats also a great way to meet people.
"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

If you know a lot of ppl at your DZ, just approach someone and say "hey, if i cover your slot can you help me with (insert skill set here)?"

Depending on the jumper and what they have going on they might or might not have you cover their slot. Either way it's cheaper than a coach jump and you can going to get a LOT more out of it then a solo jump. If possible, ask someone who has video as well. If you are comparing your learning curve to the economic cost jumping with someone who has video (and doesnt charge you for it) will save you a LOT of money because you can learn more from it.

If you arent comfortable approaching someone like that then ask your AFFI to recomend someone. Thats also a great way to meet people.



Hell man, if you are at my dz I will jump with you and pay my own slot. I can't believe you cannot find people at your dz to do the same. B|


"Don't! Get! Eliminated!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
depends on the "coach"

a good coach also may or may not have a Coach rating

not all those with a Coach rating are any good at coaching either

some are, some aren't, I've yet to see a correlation of any kind to the 'rating' the U$PA charges for....

It's nice to get a few solos in after graduation to get comfortable, but at some point, you have to get skills assessments signed off. And, at some point, learning advanced skills will usually require coaching at some time by someone that, not only knows what they are doing, but also has the ability to teach it to you. Basic skills requiring a coach? That's pretty specific to skill of the jumper and those that will jump with him for fun.

I'd do some solos, and make some friends to jump with and if you hit a wall on certain skills, find a skill jumper with teaching skills and work on it with them.

in other words, be very tactical in your jumping budget until you can go afford a good mantis tunnel camp and some good FF tunnel coaching - I recommend both, jack of all trades jumper and all that

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Here Here good advice Chris most jumpers will include you in on a fun 2 or 3 way sometimes even bigger ways. If you make it in the round great but you will see how others get it done. I don't think I have ever paid for a coach after student level. I just tagged along and worked on my skills and learned by watching others. Yea we might rib when you blow out but it is your jump do with it what you want. Just have fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It used to be that a new jumper made friends at the DZ and made progressive jumps with them to learn. The payment rendered was beer.
"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

We do have a couple of groups of fun belly fliers at Davis that will likely be happy to jump with you (at no extra charge) once you get the license. Find me next weekend and I can introduce you to them.



Thanks! I will look for you this weekend!
"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Here Here good advice Chris most jumpers will include you in on a fun 2 or 3 way sometimes even bigger ways. If you make it in the round great but you will see how others get it done. I don't think I have ever paid for a coach after student level.



Thanks! I'm still at student level, though. I've graduated AFF but don't have my 'A'.
"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
96 Jumps and No A License??

Assuming you Profile is not correct, You should try to find qualified people that will jump with you. Many will do so at no charge (Giving back to the sport).
I remember when I was just off AFF and begging my DZO to let me do a solo, He frowned upon Resent AFF grads doing Solos and would always find a qualified Jumper to jump with them (at no cost to the student). His reasoning was that you learn very little on a solo because you have no point of reference in the sky.

Times (and attitudes) have changed with the coach rating and its use (and misuse). I would suggest that you avoid doing solos if possible. Hang around the DZ after hours and meet some people, Many will gladly jump with you at no charge (Look for the old timers, they are more likely to have the "Pay it forward" attitude and they are easily bribed with Beer.)

If however you really do have 96 jumps and still no A License, That is a different story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thank you for your feedback.

The jump total is correct but the vast majority of those jumps were in 1984 and 1985. I completed the then-requirements for an 'A' (in Canada) but didn't actually do the paperwork to get the license.

So I'm basically starting again--for all practical purposes those old jumps don't "count" because (a) I no longer have my old logbook (b) it has been so long (c) many of the skills required for an 'A' now were not required then (d) most of the old jumps were on rounds, etc.

For the purposes of this thread you should assume I have 15 jumps because that is the number of recent, logged, jumps I have and represents a much closer estimate of my true skill level.

Thanks again for your feedback. At my DZ, and talking to other students, they seem to want the student to take some responsibility for their own training at this stage (post-AFF) of their skydiving career. Ie I think they want the student to form some opinion of what to do next (particular skills to acquire from a coach or practice solo) and not just expect a coach, instructor, or DZO to hand-hold them. At least that is my impression.
"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Neither, go find a DZ where people will jump with you for free.



This guy has it right. I jump at two places and there's always someone willing to jump with you for nothing more than covering his spot on the load (some will even be real nice and refuse that). Usually, it's the older guys who like to be a father figure and make sure everyone's as safe as possible. They enjoy teaching and making sure everyone's super safe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Uh... I don't know.. not much without someone else there as a reference point...

Sometimes I will do a solo jump and fly in the deployment position for the entire skydive..

Although that may appear dumb to some people .. that way I will have consistent pulls...
Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Obviously some coach jumps are needed to get signed off for the 'A' but other than that where should the priorities be?



Learning to skydive safely.
A good Coach will help with the book knowledge in addition to freefall skills.

A good Coach will help you avoid developing bad habits.

I think a good idea, considering cost-effectivenss, is to have a Coach teach you then jump with you and give you a good de-brief and then you do some solos to practice what he/she taught you....assuming, of course, that you actually are doing what he/she taught you.

As an aside, I cringe when I visit a DZ and see signs saying "Coach Jumps - $80". Reminds me of SLYride operations.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Neither, go find a DZ where people will jump with you for free.



This guy has it right. I jump at two places and there's always someone willing to jump with you for nothing more than covering his spot on the load (some will even be real nice and refuse that). Usually, it's the older guys who like to be a father figure and make sure everyone's as safe as possible. They enjoy teaching and making sure everyone's super safe.




Yep, but I ment find the people that would refuse all payment. There are people like that out there. I despise the coach system. Making people jump with only instructors,coaches or do solos is a waste.(many DZs don't let people know they can jump with D license jumpers)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

As an aside, I cringe when I visit a DZ and see signs saying "Coach Jumps - $80". Reminds me of SLYride operations.



You have got to be kidding me. You're comparing the coaching system with Skyride?

I don't get it. What's wrong with charging people for a service offered? A true coach jump includes evaluation of previous jumps, training on the current jump, the jump, evaluation of the jump, and retraining if necessary. All of that takes a long time, and effort. So, the coach makes the enormous amount of $10 to $15 bucks, for two hours of work (if the coach is doing it correcly, it is work). Do the math, that's barely minimum wage ( Michigan is $6.95 per hour).

Sure, some coaches suck. However, the majority of coaches that I know, that follow the ISP, do a very good job and are worth every penny to the student.

Why is it worth it to the student? Where is the value? Answer...... They won't suck when they get their license and they will be far, far, far ahead of the student that jumps solos or does some yahoo skydive with someone that has not taken the time to prove they have the minimum teaching and flying skills to acquire the coach rating. The only thing the D-license holder has proven is that they can survive enough jumps to earn the D-license. Nothing more. That's why the current system is in place, because any yahoo can get a D-license.

Please tell me one thing, what's the difference between a student paying me to do a coach jump with them, and me hiring Shannon Pilcher and Ian Bobo to do 4-way coaching with me and a team mate. I have a skill that the student wants to acquire, and I know how to teach them. Shannon and Ian have a skill that I want to acquire, and they know how to teach it, and trust me, Shannon and Ian are much, much, much more expensive than I am. Coaching is coaching, we're just talking about levels.
So, please go tell Shannon, Nikklas, Jay Mo, Dan B.C., Gary, Eliana, and Craig that they are Skyride'ish because they are hired as coaches to teach a particular skill that they all have proven they possess.
However, what I just said sure didn't sound as cool as what you said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Got news for you, any yahoo can get a coaches rating.

The difference is you are not told you can't jump with someone else till you are willing to hire the people you mentioned.

That being said, It sounds like you take your coaching very serious. It's too bad that more coaches don't. Most I have seen just look at it as a way to get a free skydive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

If a student has graduated from AFF and is now working towards their 'A', what would you recommend--if funds are a bit of an issue--that their focus be--coach jumps or solo jumps?

The tradeoff here seems to be that one can learn a lot more on coach jumps but on the other hand if one REALLY wants to get some jumps in, solo jumps will be less expensive and easier to get more jumps in.

Obviously some coach jumps are needed to get signed off for the 'A' but other than that where should the priorities be?



West Tennessee Skydiving provides a free coach to every AFF Graduate on each and every jump until they receive their A License. This is our "Jump Buddy" program where a coach will be assigned to the AFF Graduate who will keep in contact with the student, make sure all items on the A License card are accomplished, and make sure that the student progresses in the sport.

If you will come to our DZ, we would be glad to provide a free coach.

Mike Mullins
www.SkydiveKingAir.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

.... Skydiving provides a free coach to every AFF Graduate on each and every jump until they receive their A License.




what is 'free'

0 - free jump (:S)
1 - student pays for their slot only
2 - student pays their slot + coach slot
3 - student pays their slot + coach slot + coach pack
4 - student pays their slot + coach slot + coach pack + (gratuity is rather vigorously encouraged)

I've heard people argue vigorously for each of these "REALLY" being what they considered free with the "pay to jump" profeesionals moving to the bottom of the list arguing about the extent of their time, missed pay opportunities, gear maintenance, etc. and how "free" really means they only get paid their 'minimum' allowance to jump with someone plus slot and pack.

(it also seems that the farther down the list a pro considers 'free' - there's a correlation to them starting tipping threads too :o:o:ph34r:)

I don't much care, but when someone offers "free" they need to be specific

When I did free jumps with newbies, I paid my own slot and packed my own rig. Anything above that I consider not free. It might be 'reasonable', but it's not free.

coaching now? It's free if I feel like it - it's fun for me still and that's how I was trained. I'll take slot for it if I don't want to really jump at that time, though - I've had staff wake me up from a nap and note someone really needs help on "this load". But if that's the case, then that jump is 100% focused on the student, with a thorough pre-brief, post brief, and a discussion on following progression and what to do next.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

don't get it. What's wrong with charging people for a service offered?



Nothing at all. I don't think anyone is saying that people should be allowed to hire a Coach if they want to. The problem is exactly what the title of this thread says..."coach jumps or solo jumps?".
Those are the only options many AFF grads think they have.

Even if not getting Formal Coaching, Having someone to jump with is better and more educational than doing solos. Back to the point of reference in the sky thing. A resent AFF Grad will not learn much at all if they are doing a solo, How do they know if they are backsliding? What freefall skills can they realistically work on without a point of reference?

Now if someone qualified is willing to jump with them at no extra costs to the student (Giving back concept), The student has a greater opportunity to learn from the jump.

Saying that they MUST jump with (PAY) a COACH or Jump Solo is a mistake in some peoples opinion and a disservice to the student.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0