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tkhayes 329
100lb people do not play pro football and 300lb people do not skydive.
Do not bother a dropzone with such a request. It is both stupid & dangerous, and exposes EVERYONE involved to a retarded amount of liability.
negligence
noun
failure to take proper care in doing something : some of these accidents are due to negligence.
• Law failure to use reasonable care, resulting in damage or injury to another.
Even a tandem harness is not approved for that much weight. The tandem system is approved for a TOTAL weight, using two harnesses to support the total. Not a total weight supported by ONE of the two harnesses.
If you think it is OK to do that, you should probably call Bill Booth and/or Ted Strong and see if they give the OK.....I doubt they would touch it.
Do not bother a dropzone with such a request. It is both stupid & dangerous, and exposes EVERYONE involved to a retarded amount of liability.
negligence
noun
failure to take proper care in doing something : some of these accidents are due to negligence.
• Law failure to use reasonable care, resulting in damage or injury to another.
Even a tandem harness is not approved for that much weight. The tandem system is approved for a TOTAL weight, using two harnesses to support the total. Not a total weight supported by ONE of the two harnesses.
If you think it is OK to do that, you should probably call Bill Booth and/or Ted Strong and see if they give the OK.....I doubt they would touch it.
I had a call just last night from an “old airborne guy!” He said that he now weighs 220, 230, maybe 250, and hasn’t jumped since the mid 80s, well maybe 10 years ago (whatever!). He wants me to put him out a couple of times, so he can brush up for some sort of reunion jump. I told him multiple times, in different ways “I will not put you out, the gear is not certified for weight above 254 lbs. It’s illegal.” So, he says that he wants to come out and talk with me. He says that he’s going to do a military round jump, and wants to look good when he lands. I told him “Sounds like an ambulance ride to me.”
“Stupid is, as stupid does.”
It's really not good business practice to be breaking and killing folks!
Martin
“Stupid is, as stupid does.”
It's really not good business practice to be breaking and killing folks!
Martin
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.
AC DZ
AC DZ
Phree, TK & Martin reread your TSO's. 23C has a 254 lbs limit, but 23B does not have a weight limit. There might be limits on the canopies (though I know of at least 2 Cat D sport reserves rated above 300 lbs), but 23B containers do not.
In fact, Jeff from Mirage has sent me test data where the G3 handled that kind of weight with flying colors in oder to satisfy my dzo that the rig wasn't going to disintegrate around me. Since that time, I've personally put a couple of hundred jumps on my Mirage where the exit weight was around 350 and deployment speeds typically varied from 140-175 mph. I know that that is on the extreme high end of the curve, so I inspect the gear reguarly and have not found any difference between my rig and those with a similar number of jumps used by jumpers of more average weight.
-Blind
In fact, Jeff from Mirage has sent me test data where the G3 handled that kind of weight with flying colors in oder to satisfy my dzo that the rig wasn't going to disintegrate around me. Since that time, I've personally put a couple of hundred jumps on my Mirage where the exit weight was around 350 and deployment speeds typically varied from 140-175 mph. I know that that is on the extreme high end of the curve, so I inspect the gear reguarly and have not found any difference between my rig and those with a similar number of jumps used by jumpers of more average weight.
-Blind
"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."
PhreeZone 20
Please list the reserves and their TSO's. The assembled rig is only cleared to its lowest certified weight. If the harness is certified to no limit but the reserve is only certified to 254 then that derates the assembled harness to the reserves weight. Highest I know of for a reserve is the Intruder by Paraflite (only with the Raider Harness) for 450 lbs but those are really hard to get your hands on for sport jumping let a lone for student operations at a DZ. The R-Max is for around 320 lbs, no where need the 400 lbs this jumper would need.
I have no doubt that the rigs we use today will go way beyond the 300lb mark and probably way higher but in a student situation all FAR's and TSO's need to be completely complied with and that involves finding gear that is correctly certified for the jumpers weight.
I have no doubt that the rigs we use today will go way beyond the 300lb mark and probably way higher but in a student situation all FAR's and TSO's need to be completely complied with and that involves finding gear that is correctly certified for the jumpers weight.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
QuotePlease list the reserves and their TSO's.
The two I know off the top of my head are
R-Max 288: 317 lbs
AngleFire 246,280 & 300: 330 lbs.
I think there is one or two more, but I'd have to dig
QuoteThe R-Max is for around 320 lbs, no where need the 400 lbs this jumper would need.
True, I was more addressing the misconception of the the 254 lb "limit".
-Blind
"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."
Hey TK. I guess that also means that tents are for sleeping in instead of flying into them.
QuoteThis guy would qualify for "Super Anvil" status.
He is his own two way.
That could be a new world record by itself.
Get him jumping and then it's a 400 mph headsdown.
Can you imagin us "regular" Anvils headown chasing the "Super Anvil" on his belly?????????? Far out!!!!!
"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"
Amazon 7
QuoteQuoteThis guy would qualify for "Super Anvil" status.
He is his own two way.
That could be a new world record by itself.
Get him jumping and then it's a 400 mph headsdown.
Can you imagin us "regular" Anvils headown chasing the "Super Anvil" on his belly?????????? Far out!!!!!
Been there done that...
Quote
In fact, Jeff from Mirage has sent me test data where the G3 handled that kind of weight with flying colors in oder to satisfy my dzo that the rig wasn't going to disintegrate around me. Since that time, I've personally put a couple of hundred jumps on my Mirage where the exit weight was around 350 and deployment speeds typically varied from 140-175 mph. I know that that is on the extreme high end of the curve, so I inspect the gear reguarly and have not found any difference between my rig and those with a similar number of jumps used by jumpers of more average weight.
Phree, TK, and Martin hit the nail on the head! This is a "Huge" liability issue for any DZ that makes the mistake of offering service.
I have heard the equipment argument a thousand times, the fact is the TSO limit is the limit! Period! Nada! no exceptions!
Equipment never fails until it "Fails" I personally have inspected equipment for over 25 years and can identify, which rig is hauling an excessive weight! so the statement that the extra weight has no effect, is in my opinion not true!
But lets get past the equipment issue and get to the crux of the matter, Question! if a 180 pound man will brake his leg from a 5 foot fall, than a 370 pound man will brake his at? If you use basic math it will show 2.5 feet or less. The one thing that does not happen when a person gains more weight is the the basic structure, "bones" do not enlarge also, so the load upon the structure is greater and the effect of possible failure increases greatly!
As I understand the object of skydiving is to be a fun, and enjoyable experience, not a long painful ride to the emergency room, for rods in both legs, and a hip replacement!
Bottom Line! He is to big!
.
Quote
Phree, TK, and Martin hit the nail on the head! This is a "Huge" liability issue for any DZ that makes the mistake of offering service.
If they are within the limits where is the a larger liability than people with other types of physical conditions that we allow to jump?
I know that you cited the risk of breaking bones, but honestly if we let osteoporosis-ridden grandmas celebrate their 70th birthdays by doing a jump, how can we deny the heavy jumper who might actually have stronger bones? And how is that any riskier than letting the jumper you know is on BP meds continue to jump?
The answer is that it isn't. These people are allowed to jump because they have been informed that they are at an elevated risk, but they have chosen to assume the extra risk.
Quote
Equipment never fails until it "Fails" I personally have inspected equipment for over 25 years and can identify, which rig is hauling an excessive weight! so the statement that the extra weight has no effect, is in my opinion not true!
Where do you see the excess wear? Is it on the rig or the canopy/risers? I am honestly curious because while I have seen wear on links and linesets that weren't designed for the load that was put on them, I haven't spotted any excess wear on the stitching, joints or hardware on the container itself.
Quote
But lets get past the equipment issue and get to the crux of the matter, Question! if a 180 pound man will brake his leg from a 5 foot fall, than a 370 pound man will brake his at? If you use basic math it will show 2.5 feet or less. The one thing that does not happen when a person gains more weight is the the basic structure, "bones" do not enlarge also, so the load upon the structure is greater and the effect of possible failure increases greatly!
You are working under a flawed assumption. You are only looking at the physics and not the physiology. Bone density in load-bearing bones increases as the normal load on them increases which counters the failings of the cube/root law to a large, but not total, extent. Heavier people are at a elevated risk, but it's not as dire as the simple math would suggest.
-Blind
"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."
Quote
If they are within the limits where is the a larger liability than people with other types of physical conditions that we allow to jump?
After a serious injury of a larger student jumper, the plaintiffs attorney will tell the jury that it is common knowledge that persons near or at the legal limit of weight whom get involved in the sport of skydiving are at much greater risk!
He will ask you as the service and equipment provider if you were knowledgable of this increased risk? unless you are willing to purger yourself you will state "Yes" you knew of the added risk, he will than ask on what grounds or assumption that "you" choose to put this person whom was with common knowledge at added risk into this situation?
You will state that by your current acessment that you think the risk to be a factor of any and all jumps!
He will than state "But you choose on behalf of the unknowledgable potential student to place him in this situation of added risk! than again he will ask "Why" did you decide to do this? you will than say I don't know or I'am not sure!
He will than look into the eyes of the jury and state "Was it for money? Greed? to operate your business?
You will find yourself unable to defend this statement and after a short deliberation the jury will find you guilty of neglignce, or contributory negligence, and will reward the plaintiff a free ride on your nickel for the rest of his entire life!!!!!
Do you get it now?
Quote
I know that you cited the risk of breaking bones, but honestly if we let osteoporosis-ridden grandmas celebrate their 70th birthdays by doing a jump, how can we deny the heavy jumper who might actually have stronger bones? And how is that any riskier than letting the jumper you know is on BP meds continue to jump?
Well the 70 something Grandma is doing a Tandem, you control the situation and do not allow her any opportunity to control the jump and take all precautions to remove her the option to injure herself.
If persons are on meds they should contact their doctor for his opinion as to the effect this may have on their safety, You would be surprised that many if not most would be informed not to jump!
Quote
The answer is that it isn't. These people are allowed to jump because they have been informed that they are at an elevated risk, but they have chosen to assume the extra risk.
But when they file suit against you, even if you can get them to admit they knew of the added risk you are still responsible and can be found negligent as the expert jumper whom was part of the bad decision! They will find someone to bear the responsibility, and it will not be the injured person.
Quote
Where do you see the excess wear? Is it on the rig or the canopy/risers? I am honestly curious because while I have seen wear on links and linesets that weren't designed for the load that was put on them, I haven't spotted any excess wear on the stitching, joints or hardware on the container itself.
All of the above!
Quote
You are working under a flawed assumption. You are only looking at the physics and not the physiology. Bone density in load-bearing bones increases as the normal load on them increases which counters the failings of the cube/root law to a large, but not total, extent. Heavier people are at a elevated risk, but it's not as dire as the simple math would suggest.
OK all you need to do is sell that train of thought and belief to the jury during the hearing.
In the last 30 plus years I have put thousands of persons through the doors of aircraft, Static Line, Tandem, AFF, and I can state that the injuries that I have witnessed were almost totally to persons whom were on the upper end of the weight spectrum. Any mistake that they make or poor decision results in more frequent injuries, than persons of lower weight making the same bad decisions. They cannot negate themselves of the added risk, and you as the service provider cannot hide from the responsibility of allowing this decision.
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pms07 3
Quotedoes anybody know of a staticline dz in the Boston area. I work with a guy thats 6'4 and 370lbs. Also keep in mind he's not going to fit in any c-182.
You have got to be kidding
. 370 lbs? Add maybe 50-60 lbs at least for appropriate sized gear and clothing? TK and Tom came up with words like stupid and dangerous and that seems kind...
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