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dalemeyer

Scare Tactic

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howzit folks...

i have a question... why are people using the "Scare" tactic to try and get others to be safer?
the more someone tells me not to do something, the more i would like to do it... its just not working!

the place you notice it the most is with regards to canopies and downsizing and stuff like that...
the "you-will-kill-yourself"/"see-you-in-the-incidents-forum" speech annoys the hell out of me.

i brought this up to try and find out what other methods would work...

my theory: warn them of the dangers (use personal accounts or experiences if possible) and explain it in detail of what could happen. if they choose not to listen, then atleast you have warned them and its out of your hands.
If they are downsizing too much... set goals for them to acheive first(goals with original canopy before downsizing) (and i dont mean 500 jumps in 3 years type of thing), like 20 jumps within the next 2 months, and goals like landing in a designated area (accuracy), cross-wind/downwind landings... if they demonstrate good skills with setup, and they complete those required tasks with no issues, and it happens to be at jump #200 instead of 500 as 'the canopy chart' suggests, then good on them, and they should be able to downsize one down.
NO going from a 190 to a 150 or less without skipping a step...

Positivity and encouragement is the key... to within your capabilities of course

"What are my capabilites?" ask your instructor/mentor on advice.
I fly a 190 Pilot with a W/L of 1.5 (big boy) and have done so for the last year and a bit. I am confident (not arrogant) in my abilities under canopy. I am comfortable in winds/no wind, crosswind/downwind landings, and i land no my feet within the area i have chosen.
i should be told of the dangers/risks invlolved if i wanted to go from a 190 to a 170.
My personal situation at the moment is that i would load a 170 at 1.6 or so. That puts me out of my comfort zone more than what i would like. so i will lose 40 lbs to bring that W/L down to 1.4, which would be less than my current W/L
the fact that i would be willing to lose 40 lbs should surely, among other things, prove that i am no idiot and that i have thought this through/done my homework and will not be doing anything stupid...

Negativity is a crap tool and i believe its use in the skydiving community is not needed and should not be used...

"I want to downsize Mr DZSO" "Ok, little Timmy, i dont think that you are ready for it, BUT here are some drills/tasks/exercises i would like to see you complete first""Complete them with no issues and then we can try one size down"

"I want to downsize Mr DZSO""Ok little Timmy. I have seen you fly and you are competent""Lets try one size down"

thanks for listening



As humans, we seek more. More challenges, risks and rewards...
Take it easy... and if you get it easy, take it TWICE!

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even though i fully agree with you, the first thing that comes to my mind is this:

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"I want to downsize Mr DZSO" "Ok, little Timmy, i dont think that you are ready for it, BUT here are some drills/tasks/exercises i would like to see you complete first""Complete them with no issues and then we can try one size down"


"Oh yeah? Well then I'll go to [wherever], because they'll let me downsize now. I don't need to do any crap excercises because I already can land my current canopy in optimal conditions."

Let's face it - the people most likely to benefit from your approach are also the ones least likely to listen.
Then again, if you can make even one person see sense, all effort wasted on other people is totally worth it:)
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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if they want to jump at another dz... let them... its not your or my dz that will be in the headlines if the shite hits the fan... the responsibility is out of your hands...
or, advise the other dz of the intentions...
but i understand what you are saying...

had a similar issue as you have mentioned at a dz... problem was that they would have to travel for and extra hour and decided to stay... hehe...
Take it easy... and if you get it easy, take it TWICE!

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if they want to jump at another dz... let them... its not your or my dz that will be in the headlines if the shite hits the fan... the responsibility is out of your hands...



Are you trying to keep the jumper safe or to absolve yourself/your DZ from the responsibility?



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if they want to jump at another dz... let them...


Happens here all the time... People can`t jump that canopy here. People go to the another dz. People smash to the ground. People live, but still want to buy VX-es after that...
And the original DZ is still seen like idiots teht won`t let me fly/jump/do whatever I want.
Some people will do what they want, and the ones that will listen to you are not the type that we discuss here.
dudeist skydiver #42

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Are you trying to keep the jumper safe or to absolve yourself/your DZ from the responsibility?

***


its probably more the disgust from seeing the same scenario play out again and again with the same shit, different people - you just cant get through to some people and since they are gonna go do what they want cuz you dont know their mad skills, or that they always fly conservatively,
I for one would rather them break themselves somewhere other than where I am at personally,
I have helped sterilize the ground with bleach water once and never want to do it again.


Roy
They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

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i can only do so much... if i have given my opinion/advice, and you choose not to listen and go to another dz... i wont stop you... everyone who jumps has the ability to make decisions... whether they are good or bad, is only our opinions...
if they take my advice, good on them, and we will probably turn out to be best of mates later on down the line... if not, then that is their decision and i have done what i can, short of begging...
Take it easy... and if you get it easy, take it TWICE!

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Hmmmmm, let me guess.

So someone gets told a Katana at that wingloading with those low jump numbers might be unwise(nice version)/STUPID(scare tactic) and the poor little child gets his feelings hurt. I guess this grumpy old fart who only has a few years in sport is already tired of hotshots with madskilz on too small of a canopy with too few jumps and them getting a ride in the meat wagon/whirlybird even though they had been told nicely it was not wise/fucking stupid.

I was going to respond to that original post but just figured you wouldn't listen and didn't waste my time. Seems I was right. Downsizing while changing to a higher performance canopy are two links in the chain to an incident report. Add low jump numbers and testosterone poisoning and there are two more links adding to the chain of events. Why the rush. How about you lose the weight first, downsize to another Pilot and jump the hell out of that, and then just maybe try the Katana in the same size. But at least you are thinking enough about what was said to actually ask another question.

Just for shits and giggles, send an email to PD and see what they suggest on the canopy size/type for you. They have a bit more experience about appropriate wingloading/canopy choice.
50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

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...why are people using the "Scare" tactic to try and get others to be safer?



Sometimes that is just the only thing that works. There are certain (young male in particular) skydivers that are just very aggressive about their progression and overestimate their abilities.

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my theory: warn them of the dangers (use personal accounts or experiences if possible) and explain it in detail of what could happen.



I agree, and that is how I try to do it.

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... set goals for them to acheive first(goals with original canopy before downsizing)



Bill von Novak put together a list of skills like that, you can search for it or maybe someone will point you do it.

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(and i dont mean 500 jumps in 3 years type of thing), like 20 jumps within the next 2 months



Ten jumps a month is barely staying current if someone wants to explore high performance canopy flight. 20 dedicated canopy flight jumps out of 40 jumps in the past two months is more like it.

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tell them the dangers involved and let them make up their own mind...



The problem is that one of the big dangers involved also involves the safety of other people. Smaller canopies fly faster and therefore require that the pilot exhibit a higher level of situational awareness and a firmer grasp on avoidance maneuvers to help avoid the possibility of a collision.

Developing situational awareness under canopy requires spending time in the element. Someone with 1000 jumps has spent significantly more time in the element than has someone with 200 jumps.

Putting survival avoidance techniques into muscle memory (for example making it automatic that you go to a flat turn when someone cuts you off on final, no thinking needed), likewise requires time spent practicing them; like EP's, the more practice the better.

I no longer have an issue with noobs fucking themselves up under canopies that are even just a little bit too fast for their ability. Since most of them didn't listen, they serve as excellent examples. I do have an issue with anybody fucking somebody else up because they are flying something that is even just a little bit too fast for their ability, whether the incident involves a canopy collision or a collision in the landing area or even just a close call. Your right to fly whatever you want stops at my right to walk back to the packing area.

Unfortunately, most people who go too small too fast aren't going to hear the above argument either. Which leads to what could be a very effective method for making the point if enough experienced jumpers used it - simply refuse to be in the air with the scary people.

"Oh, Bob's on that load? Put me on the next load instead then."

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I find it much more personally beneficial to fore go all the gloom & doom warnings to the future femur fellas and instead practice up on my wind-sprints...


One of the most important and enduring rules of skydiving is~

First one to the crater gets all the good stuff! B|











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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I find it much more personally beneficial to fore go all the gloom & doom warnings to the future femur fellas and instead practice up on my wind-sprints...


One of the most important and enduring rules of skydiving is~

First one to the crater gets all the good stuff! B|



Good thing I am younger and faster than you. I could use a Katana 170.:P
50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

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howzit folks...
i have a question... why are people using the "Scare" tactic to try and get others to be safer?



Because for some people it's one out of two methods that work, with the second method usually requiring a trip to the emergency room and orthopaedic surgeon.

>If they are downsizing too much... set goals for them to acheive first(goals with original canopy before downsizing) (and i dont mean 500 jumps in 3 years type of thing), like 20 jumps within the next 2 months, and goals like landing in a designated area (accuracy), cross-wind/downwind landings...

The problems with this are that

1. It's not just about the skills. It's developing muscle memory and psychological familiarity and confidence with the speed and maneuvers so that when things go to heck (you land out because of a long spot, don't see the power lines because it's on the sunset load, and turn low) you're not over stimulated past where you can perform and have good chances of doing the right things.

100-200 jumps per size with more at small sizes, for the transition to fully elliptical canopies, and when things start getting really small aren't too out of line and perhaps not coincidentally match what Brian Germain has in his chart (in addition to 10,000 jumps, designing parachutes, and travelling around the world to teach canopy flight Brian studied psychology in school and has written a book on it).

2. You need to be able to make 90 degree turns from roof-top level, you need to be able to land with induced speed (because some time you won't make a flat turn correctly), you need to be able to land down wind, and you need to be able to fly around obstacles on the ground. A lot of people claim they "aren't hook turn type people," will "just be careful" and not try those things.

Landing straight-in and more complex maneuvers are deceptively simple when nothing else is going on.

3. It's not linear or predictable. Although I'd be fine with 600 jumps under bigger parachutes with the last 200 under a 135 elliptical, when I switched to a Stiletto 120 at 1.6 pounds per square foot the thing didn't always land in a straight line due to pilot error.

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"What are my capabilites?" ask your instructor/mentor on advice.



With a handful of exceptions your instructor hasn't seen a lot. He may just be used to 25% of the guys he knows going to the hospital. Unless his advice is more conservative than accepted wisdom because you need more practice you'd do well to go slower.

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I fly a 190 Pilot with a W/L of 1.5 (big boy) and have done so for the last year and a bit. I am confident (not arrogant) in my abilities under canopy. I am comfortable in winds/no wind, crosswind/downwind landings, and i land no my feet within the area i have chosen.



Big people don't bounce as well as little ones do.

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Negativity is a crap tool and i believe its use in the skydiving community is not needed and should not be used...



Logic doesn't work too well.

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Negativity is a crap tool and i believe its use in the skydiving community is not needed and should not be used...



Hey, that would completely change dropzone.com!

I don't disagree with the points in your post.

Sometimes though, one doesn't have the time to coddle every person and gradually try to alter their perceptions through a course of well thought out instructional and motivational practices and content. Much quicker just to slam people.

A warning about dangers can still be a starting point, although adding some positive aspect may help a lot (e.g., adding reasons for the danger, or how to learn to avoid the danger). Even depersonalizing the warning can help reduce the defensive attitude that is likely to occur -- "you could kill yourself" rather than "you'll kill yourself".

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My personal situation at the moment is that i would load a 170 at 1.6 or so. That puts me out of my comfort zone more than what i would like. so i will lose 40 lbs to bring that W/L down to 1.4, which would be less than my current W/L
the fact that i would be willing to lose 40 lbs should surely, among other things, prove that i am no idiot and that i have thought this through/done my homework and will not be doing anything stupid...



Planning to lose the weight isn't the same as actually doing it. I had a similar plan to make a downsize to a 9 cell without worrying about the container size. But instead I worked all spring with limited fun of any sort and the weight didn't change a bit. So last month I ordered a same size but with the 'smaller' fabric that is all the rage.

Any plan based on losing 40 lbs is a suspect one, with the more likely result you lose less than 20, get the canopy, and go out and fly it 'real conservatively.' Which the old timer scare mongers have seen over and over as well.

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i can only do so much... if i have given my opinion/advice, and you choose not to listen and go to another dz... i wont stop you... everyone who jumps has the ability to make decisions... whether they are good or bad, is only our opinions...
if they take my advice, good on them, and we will probably turn out to be best of mates later on down the line... if not, then that is their decision and i have done what i can, short of begging...



Everyone who jumps can make a decision. A good or bad one is NOT our opinion. There are truly good decisions and bad decisions made before, after and during a skydive.

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i have a question... why are people using the "Scare" tactic to try and get others to be safer?
the more someone tells me not to do something, the more i would like to do it... its just not working!

the place you notice it the most is with regards to canopies and downsizing and stuff like that...
the "you-will-kill-yourself"/"see-you-in-the-incidents-forum" speech annoys the hell out of me.

i brought this up to try and find out what other methods would work...

my theory: warn them of the dangers (use personal accounts or experiences if possible) and explain it in detail of what could happen. if they choose not to listen, then atleast you have warned them and its out of your hands.



So you're claiming that logic and reason would work better with you than scare tactics. I suspect that neither is going to work. Here's why...

This is a topic that has been beaten to death on DZ.com. I think if you were likely to listen to logic, that would make you logical and rational in how you are thinking about this. Since some people have raised some concerns about your plans to fly a large katana loaded at 1.6, you could have used that logical, rational thinking to do a search on here and you would have found enormous numbers of posts and threads on here discussing the relative merits of downsizing rapidly, including many logical and thoughtful posts on what might constitute a reasonable canopy progressions. You would have also found a good number of threads in the incidents forum where people have hurt or killed themselves which would describe in relative detail what kind of things can happen when things go bad under canopy.

Instead of doing that, you've instead come here with a post about how it's really everyone else's fault why you want to make a poor canopy choice. I also think that the fact that you've chosen to conceal your true jump numbers while making such posts says a lot about what you want to do. Are you worried that if your profile says you only have 73 jumps (or however many it actually is) that you won't get the answers you're hoping for? It sounds to me more like you've come here to find someone to say what you want to hear and while it may be annoying to have people use scare tactics, it sounds like you're trying just as hard not to listen.

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K...
firstly, IM NOT CLAIMING anything...
2ndly... i have not had this "you will kill yourself" conversation with anyone as i am yet to purchase any canopy (although i would like a katana)

i have 210 jumps only...
im half way to losing my goal weight...
the katana would be loaded at 1.4 (WHEN(not if)) i reach my goal weight...
but once again... this is not about me... i was using myself as an example only

i read a large deal of these posts (not necessarily this forum) with people being "put down" so to speak...

in saying that... i would like to thank Skybytch, Dreweckhardt and Pchapman for their responses... that was more of what i was looking for...
Take it easy... and if you get it easy, take it TWICE!

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firstly, IM NOT CLAIMING anything...



You did start by stating that such tactics have the opposite effect on you and then went on to suggest that a calm and well reasoned explanation of the risks might be a better approach. It certainly sounds like you think the latter approach would work better on you than the former approach.

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im half way to losing my goal weight...



Good job!

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i read a large deal of these posts (not necessarily this forum) with people being "put down" so to speak...



There are also a number of reasonable and constructive posts on the topic such as this post from billvon. The information is out there if people want to look.

In a lot of those threads, you'll also find posts outlining the reasons for the attitude in the responses. For one thing, it doesn't help when people keep seeing the same questions being asked by newbies touting their mad skillz and how the normal advice doesn't apply to them. That's going to set some people off. For another thing, there are plenty of examples of posts out there where the OP had reasons and answers for why every rational argument provided didn't apply to them. I'm not sure that the lack of attitude in other response would have changed that, but you may have a different opinion. So far I've seen plenty of attempts to provide calm, well-reasoned arguments as to why certain choices may be bad ones, but I'm not sure that there's much evidence to suggest it was any more effective for many of these people than any other approach. Perhaps more specific feedback might produce better results, but I also think that the effectiveness of any given approach is as much dependent on the recipient of the advice or feedback as it is on the person giving and how they go about it.

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