Re: [Liemberg] Gus Wing Hit By Otter At Deland

[-Barry- 0]

My ideas were meant to save lives in the future, no matter what happened in this case, though this case should add to the statistics and be considered. Unfortunately:

(all quotes from http://www.uspa.org/about/page2/relative_safety.htm)

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No official organization rates the safety of skydiving centers. Compiling a list of accidents by skydiving center would simply indicate the busiest, most active centers.

Wouldn't every skydiver like to know which skydiving centers are safer than others? Statistics could take into consideration how busy the centers are.

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Drop zones that join as USPA Group Members are required to use only USPA-rated instructional personnel and provide standard skydiving equipment.

At least I could choose a USPA Group Member drop zone, but should it be allowed to have any others? I bet not all skydivers, especially beginners who need to take the most precautions, know about USPA Group Membership.

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Many accidents go unreported.

It should be required to report accidents.

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A database anomoly precluded USPA from collecting comparative data for 2003.

The page lists the number of fatalities for 2003 and other years, but that's all. Where can I find full comparative data for the other years? Relying on people's memories for this is a little ridiculous.

Politics and social affairs resources at PoliSource.com

[AggieDave 6]

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Statistics could take into consideration how busy the centers are.

Statistics won't necissarily do that. It would definately fuel media troll bate. Take a large DZ with many visiting jumpers that has been in business for more then 10 years, that DZ could be as safe as any other but would possibly have a higher incident rate statistically. That proves nothing.

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I bet not all skydivers, especially beginners who need to take the most precautions, know about USPA Group Membership.

A GM membership does not indicate a "safe" DZ, nor does operating a DZ without a GM membership mean that DZ is unsafe. It does mean that without a GM membership that DZ is saving hundreds to thousands of dollars a year in dues to the USPA. Infact, as it would be, the majority of non-GM DZs I know of tend to follow the BSRs. There are GM DZs that regularly break the BSRs as well. Basically it doesn't mean much. If you do a search here on DZ.com you'll learn much more about the pluses and minuses of the GM program.

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It should be required to report accidents.

Fatal accidents are reported, literally every time. Non-fatal accidents may or may not be reported, steps have been taken by the USPA to incourage DZs to report accidents that require a jumper to be taken to the hospital. Basically by trying to make the incident report form more anonymous.

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Where can I find full comparative data for the other years? Relying on people's memories for this is a little ridiculous.

Contact the USPA for records.


Also, if you would, please fill out your profile. We've got a lot of people popping up on DZ.com in the past couple of days that may or may not be jumpers and may or may not have the betterment of skydiving in their intrest. Not only that, but people on DZ.com tend to respond much better to those that have alteast have some info in their profile.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Non-fatal accidents may or may not be reported, steps have been taken by the USPA to incourage DZs to report accidents that require a jumper to be taken to the hospital.

USPA argued against FAA-mandated incident reporting when the NPRM for FAR Part 105 came around. They are against mandatory incident reporting.

Derek

[jlmiracle 7]

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Wouldn't every skydiver like to know which skydiving centers are safer than others? Statistics could take into consideration how busy the centers are.

There are not guarantees in life.

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At least I could choose a USPA Group Member drop zone, but should it be allowed to have any others? I bet not all skydivers, especially beginners who need to take the most precautions, know about USPA Group Membership.

Doesn't sound like you are too familiar with the USPA Group Membership either. It doesn't mean jack shit.

***It should be required to report accidents.
***

Okay, then we need to require all car accidents to be reported to everyone that drives or thinks about driving.

What is your motive here? You have not profile, you don't skydive, what's the deal? Why should we tell you anything.

J

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[mattjw916 2]

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My ideas were meant to save lives in the future, no matter what happened in this case, though this case should add to the statistics and be considered. Unfortunately

So we should make a bunch of changes based on a whuffo's sudden interest in the sport after a freak and relatively rare accident?

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Wouldn't every skydiver like to know which skydiving centers are safer than others? Statistics could take into consideration how busy the centers are

Even if you make this information available, people won't read it.

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At least I could choose a USPA Group Member drop zone, but should it be allowed to have any others? I bet not all skydivers, especially beginners who need to take the most precautions, know about USPA Group Membership.

I've jumped at both types and felt no more or less safe either way.

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It should be required to report accidents.

I feel like taking up Lacross... can you point to me to the website that lists all the injuries that have occurred and the odds of it happening to me?

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Relying on people's memories for this is a little ridiculous.

Too bad for you I guess... I remember every person I have seen get injured or worse, I don't need another database to "prove" that this is a high(er) risk sport when compared to something such as croquet.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[-Barry- 0]

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What is your motive here? You have not profile, you don't skydive, what's the deal? Why should we tell you anything.

I added a profile.

I realize that there are risks people take every day. Even I don't live life as safely as possible. Maybe some of my ideas would raise the cost of skydiving to an unacceptable level to some people, or having more government regulation would lead to the government controlling every move I make. I just have concerns and would like to raise some points in case they're helpful to anyone (regulators included). I'm not preaching that you should think of your families or set a good example and look for a safer hobby, or anything like that. I don't see why suggestions (actually, I think they were mostly questions) about things like reflective parachutes should get a response like "why should we tell you anything" or like some of my (I think) private responses.

I'm a bit of an activist and I care about preventing pain, injury, and death even of people I don't know and their families. I also tend to have a lot of ideas. I don't always take the time to fully research something, but I think I put things in question form in those cases rather than in preachy form.

Politics and social affairs resources at PoliSource.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I added a profile.

No, you didn't:

"Real Name: No name entered.
Homepage: http://www.polisource.com
Email: No email entered.
Jump Profile
Home DZ: No home dropzone entered.
Photographer: Yes
Gear
Container: No container entered.
Main Canopy: No main entered.
Reserve Canopy: No reserve entered.
AAD: No AAD entered.
Forum Activity
Status: Registered User
Registered: Apr 24, 2005, 11:44 PM
Last Logon: Apr 25, 2005, 2:01 PM
Local Time: Apr 25, 2005, 2:45 PM
Posts: 5 (5.0 per day)"

Derek

[-Barry- 0]

Maybe you didn't refresh, or maybe I didn't save them originally. Anyway, I entered it again.

Real Name: Barry
Interests: Safety issues, but I'm not a parachutist, skydiver, etc.
Homepage: PoliSource

Politics and social affairs resources at PoliSource.com

[billvon 2,396]

>I'm a bit of an activist and I care about preventing pain, injury, and
>death even of people I don't know and their families. I also tend to
>have a lot of ideas. I don't always take the time to fully research
> something, but I think I put things in question form in those cases
>rather than in preachy form.

No problem there, but realize that many of the things you have been considering have already been tried and either accepted or rejected by other jumpers. Often, well-meaning people set up rules/laws that end up having the opposite effect that they are hoping for; many skydivers are thus very leery of new laws that "will keep us safe." I can think of several that did just the opposite.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I'm a bit of an activist and I also tend to have a lot of ideas. I don't always take the time to fully research something, but I think I put things in question form in those cases rather than in preachy form.

Please research our sport (this would include jumping and maybe some flight lessons to truly understand it) before you come here with your activism agenda. I think it's safe to say most of us understand and accept the risks we take. We love what we do. We don't need an outsider with no understanding of skydiving and aviation coming here and suggesting/telling us how to do what we already know.

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I care about preventing pain, injury, and death even of people I don't know and their families.

More people die each year skiing and snowboarding than they do skydiving. Plus there are a lot of people dying out there in the world due to poverty, disease, war, drug and alcohol abuse, etc, etc, etc. Maybe you should take your activist ideas there?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Deuce 1]

To add to what Bill said, it's clear that you know something of regulation, from your website. Coupled, however, with your stated ignorance of the skydiving industry, your criticism chafes.

Skydiving, you may discover through experiencing it, is one of those things that is in actuality quite unlike what people expect.

So before stating that something about skydiving is "ridiculous" and somewhat condescendingly advocating some regulation or other to make it less so, spend a summer packing parachutes and skydiving.

[-Barry- 0]

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More people die each year skiing and snowboarding than they do skydiving. Plus there are a lot of people dying out there in the world due to poverty, disease, war, drug and alcohol abuse, etc, etc, etc. Maybe you should take your activist ideas there?

Not all things are as easy to fix as the things I'm discussing here seem to be. You can think of this as my hobby, like skydiving, only with the opposite affect on life and limb.

I'm sure some proposed safety measures have been tried and failed and many people who have no experience in the sport, like me, are totally clueless about how to make it safe, but I still think there's reason to believe some of my ideas would do more good than harm.

In Why negativity about AADs is disturbing someone responded to statistics by saying

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Statistics aren’t everything. They can be wrong, misinterpreted, misunderstood, etc. So much has changed over the years besides AAD’s, that the numbers aren’t very meaningful. Real life is very different from a classroom and textbooks.

If there's indication that enough changed over the years that the statistics shouldn't be considered, fine, but I'd put money on it that not enough changed and that AADs save lives overall, and I don't even know what AADs are!

Politics and social affairs resources at PoliSource.com

[CanuckInUSA 0]

So what's your revolutionary idea that's going to save us poor jumpers? Reflective tape on our canopies? Hmmm ... but you've already told us that you're not a pilot nor are you a skydiver. So what makes you an expert on what's visible up there in the sky compared to those of us who actually spend a lot of time in the air both in the cockpit as well as under a canopy? Besides, I think many of us would be elated if adding reflective tape on our canopies would solve all of the deaths and injuries in skydiving. But there will always be something dangerous about testing gravity by trying to push the evolution of human flight. Oh and has it ever occured to you that many skydivers are helping to evolve the age old dream of human flight into a reality. Research the sport and you'll know what I mean. Would you have prevented the Wright Brothers from testing their designs because you thought it wasn't safe?

I respect that you don't want to see people hurt. But people are getting messed up all over the place (I'm talking life not just jumping). The price of life is death and death continues to suck for the survivors.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[MarkM 0]

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Maybe some of my ideas would raise the cost of skydiving to an unacceptable level to some people, or having more government regulation would lead to the government controlling every move I make. I just have concerns and would like to raise some points in case they're helpful to anyone (regulators included).

Skydiving is regulated. The FAA sets very strict requirements on many aspects of the sport and the USPA has in place very specific Basic Safety Rules that cover the rest of the operations.

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I'm a bit of an activist and I care about preventing pain, injury, and death even of people I don't know and their families. I also tend to have a lot of ideas. I don't always take the time to fully research something, but I think I put things in question form in those cases rather than in preachy form.

Sadly the vast majority of the deaths and injuries in skydiving are not caused by a lack of regulation or even enforcement(dropzones happily follow the BSRs set forth by the USPA), but by bad judgement of the jumper involved.

[samyueru 0]

I think another reason you're getting such negative responses is because it appears you are assuming that any change/rule that improves safety is bona fide "good".

I could walk around all day with my flight helmet on my head and be MUCH safer. If I fell down some stairs or got hit by a car crossing the street, I'd be much better off. However, it simply isn't practical. the chances of something like that happening are not big enough to justify the safety measure.

-S

[-Barry- 0]

> So what's your revolutionary idea that's going to
> save us poor jumpers? Reflective tape on our
> canopies...what makes you an expert on what's
> visible up there in the sky...

I gave some ideas in another thread that have probably been discussed enough to give me a clear enough answer (there was no "revolutionary idea that's going to save us poor jumpers"). I don't recall any that seemed especially innovative. I just felt like they should be mentioned as reminders, if that's all they were.

At first I thought reflective materials were either too heavy, weak, or stiff, or had to be sewn on and would effect the smooth opening of the chute, or else they were already used and known to parachuters, but now it sounds like that might have been my most unique idea. It sounds like reflective inks could be used with no problem.

See http://cms.3m.com/cms/US/en/2-135/cirlzFY/view.jhtml.

Maybe I'll contact 3m and ask if those inks have ever been used on a parachute, just out of curiosity.

Politics and social affairs resources at PoliSource.com

[ladyskydiver 0]

Dude...if you want to understand us, go to the nearest DZ and jump!

There are quite a few innovators in this sport that are doing everything possible to come up with ways to make this sport a little bit safer somehow.

Don't come in to the forums and try and "fix" us.

Sometimes shit happens - sometimes preventable, sometimes not. Don't start coming here making skydiving your pet project to save us all from ourselves.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[mattjw916 2]

Maybe the reflective tape should be put on the ground since the biggest problem plaguing the sport (argueably) is low turns under canopy...

or how about little colored balloons on strings tethered to the ground extending thousands of feet into the sky as a visual aid for those people that can't seem to pay attention to their altimeter...

or how about breathalizers before you get on the plane...

while we're at it let's ban swooping, CReW, and anything bigger than a 2-way with huge delays between groups causing the planes to make multiple passes, burn more fuel, and jump tickets that cost $50 each.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[murrays 0]

"Barry" -

There's an old quote by Wilbur Wright...you know, one of the Wright Brothers of Kitty Hawk fame....that goes something like this:

"If you're looking for perfect safety, you better stay at home and sit on the fence."

Thanks for your concern, but how stupid do you think we are? Do you think we are unconcerned when someone dies? Do you think we shrug and continue on without examination of the facts and situation? DO you think we don't institute practices and procedures to prevent similar incidents? Do you think we are cavalier with one another's lives? Skydivers are family. We participate in an inherently dangerous pastime but we don't put one another in harm's way unnecessarily.

This was a freak accident. Right now, I feel absolutely terrible for the pilot, Bill Buchman, who must be replaying everything that he did over and over, trying to find the answer that would have prevented this from happening. He is extremely experienced and knowledgable. If there is something that should be changed...I am sure he will think of it.

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[-Barry- 0]

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Do you think we are unconcerned when someone dies? Do you think we shrug and continue on without examination of the facts and situation? DO you think we don't institute practices and procedures to prevent similar incidents? Do you think we are cavalier with one another's lives?

Not the first, but the others yes, a little bit.

Politics and social affairs resources at PoliSource.com

[ladyskydiver 0]

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Not the first, but the others yes, a little bit.

WTF?!?! Where do you get off making a comment like that?

Have you read all the BSR's that we follow? How about the FAA regulations that we follow?

Every single incident that happens we try and dissect it to find out what happened and how it can be prevented from happening again. We don't go jumping to conclusions based on speculation. We wait for the FACTS to come out of a situation and go forward and learn from that.

I'd suggest very heartily that before you come into our house and tell us how to take care of our family that you get your facts straight and do some serious research instead of thinking that a whuffo can come in here and tell us "Reflective tape will fix it," etc.

Each person deals with incidents and death in their own way. Don't you dare judge us for how we as a family are dealing with this.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[billvon 2,396]

>Not the first, but the others yes, a little bit.

(in reference to)
>Do you think we shrug and continue on without examination of the facts
> and situation? DO you think we don't institute practices and procedures
>to prevent similar incidents? Do you think we are cavalier with one
>another's lives?

Here's an overview of what happens during/after a fatality or serious injury:

The incident happens, whatever it is. Lately low turns are the 'popular' way to hurt yourself. Generally the closest skydiver to him gets to him first, and does what he can until someone with medical training gets there. At Perris, on any given weekend we have a few doctors, EMT's and surgeons there. If needed they call in the appropriate transport.

After the incident, the local S+TA will interview the people involved and get statements from them on the incident. A local rigger (usually a DPRE) will get the gear and examine it. This will all go into a report that gets sent to USPA.

What happens there depends on the cause of the incident. If it's a gear related issue, often the gear manufacturer will examine the issue and send out an SB (service bulletin) to all riggers and all owners of their gear. The SB might say that additional inspection is required, or an inspection procedure has changed, or a repack procedure has changed to prevent a recurrence of the incident.

If it's a problem with the DZO's procedures, then the manager/S+TA/regional director will figure out how to change them to prevent it from happening again.

If it's a problem with USPA procedures or training, generally the BOD will discuss the incident and decide on a course of action. It might be to revoke someone's instructor rating, or to make a change to one of the hundred-odd pages of the SIM (skydiver's information manual) or even to require new training of all skydivers, as happened after the Lake Erie incident.

But all too often the incident is due to a jumper who simply screwed up. Sometimes it is a jumper who has been warned about this possibility before, and ignored advice and/or listened very selectively to it. Sometimes it is a jumper who was trying something they knew was risky, and their luck ran out. And sometimes there's no reason. The jumper made no mistakes, no one else did anything wrong, everything worked properly - and he still died. Skydiving is a dangerous sport, and you can be killed even if you do everything right.

So if you think the above description of what happens after an incident is "being cavalier about our lives" then so be it. I think if you read the SIM, went to a few BOD meetings, attended a few safety day courses, went through AFF, listened to a morning staff meeting at a DZ, and watched a typical JCC, you'd have a different opinion on how seriously we take this stuff. A lot of us put a lot of effort into training new skydivers, figuring out how to skydive safely, and figuring out what went wrong when things do go wrong. Heck, just take a look at the number of posts in the Incidents and the Safety and Training forum - these are people who care quite a bit about how to keep skydiving safer, and it's only the tip of the iceberg.

[mailin 0]

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Do you think we are unconcerned when someone dies? Do you think we shrug and continue on without examination of the facts and situation? DO you think we don't institute practices and procedures to prevent similar incidents? Do you think we are cavalier with one another's lives?

Not the first, but the others yes, a little bit.

You're off base - the best place to test your new assumptions is at the dropzone, there you will see what makes 'skydivers tick'. Skydiving changes lives - I know many people who changed the course of their life for it. I know its changed mine.

I spent a good 16 months learning about the skydiving community before I did my first solo - and I'm a better skydiver for it. I know when to keep my mouth shut about stuff I know nothing about

Go sign up for a tandem, spend time talking to skydivers and interacting in our community - then come back here and re-evalute.

I'm positive only then will you see how wrong you are in that statement.

Jen

Arianna Frances

[jdfreefly 1]

On statistics:
The first problem I have with your argument, is that statistics could prove which drop zones had the best safety record. They can't. Pure and simple. All the stats will prove is who has had the most deaths and/or accidents.

What you need to understand is that often, the accident is not the cause of an unsafe opperation. Often, it is the cause of a person who just made some bad decisions. Usually, in a fatality, it isn't just one bad decision, it is many.

Take the recent incident at Sebastian as an example. The jumper was new to the dz. He made a very bad decision about his aproach, and he was seriously injured. Does this prove Sebastian to be unsafe? All this proves is what we allready know. People make mistakes, and stupid hurts. The only thing unsafe at Sebastian is the toilets.

If you gather stats on injuries, this is the kind of thing you are going to come across. You can't draw the kind of trends you want from this sort of data.

Believe me, I appreciate your concern. None of us wants to keep skydiving dangerous. I have had friends die, and I will probably have more friends die, and I have sworn to myself to do everything I can to prevent that, but I will not destroy the sport to do it.

On reporting accidents:
I agree with you in principal that accidents should be reported. But the reason they aren't reported is the very thing you want to accomplish. It would be very damaging to the industry for people who just don't understand the sport to be drawing conclusions about the level of safety based purely on statistics.

On students and safety:
Unfortunately, the truth is, most students do not really care enough about safety. Their first skydive is often done on a whim, and no time is spent on researching the various drop zones in their area. Some do care, and some do research. Those that do, will most likely end up here and will receive enthousiastic help from the members.

Giving them accident stats for their area would be miss-leading, especially when you consider that most of the people getting hurt or killed these days, tend be of a high experience level. 57% of the people killed last year held the highest license you can have in the USPA.

I know what your answer is going to be, "We can account for that by filtering out the non-student injuries." Well, then your sample size is going to be way too small and allow for absurd statistical anomolies, like a dz that has been open for one year and hasn't had any accidents.

On existing stats:
You're right, you can't rely on eye-witness accounts from 5 years ago. So don't try. As the sport progresses, we get more and more aggressive about keeping stats on the things we know to be issues. Go to the safety section of this website, and you can see a detailed break down of skydiving deaths in 2004 and the current year. Believe me, we scrutinize this. We argue constantly over what to do about the trends that we can see from this data. And we try our best to educate each other to put an end to the trends.

I appreciate your intent, but it is missguided.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[jdfreefly 1]

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I think if you read the SIM, went to a few BOD meetings, attended a few safety day courses, went through AFF, listened to a morning staff meeting at a DZ, and watched a typical JCC, you'd have a different opinion on how seriously we take this stuff.

This is good advice.

Barry, why don't you call your local dz and see if you can take their first jump course. This doesn't mean you have to jump, just take the course. If you are in the New York area, I can think of a few places to send you.

side note - the photographer portion of the profile is meant to indicate that you are a freefall photographer. At my dz you would have to have quite a few more jumps then zero to be a freefall photographer.....due to our concern for your safety.

Methane Freefly - got stink?