"Family oriented" drop zone

[wrightskyguy 1]

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Bingo, Millertime!!! You summed up exactly what I would have said to this myself and hit the nail on the head!

*** Perhaps there should be a quiet spot at the DZ where the adolecents can cuss and be as obnoxious as they want, away from the regular people. Of course I realize that it's not as much fun as when you share it with everyone, kinda like cigarette smoke.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

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[Bolas 5]

If you're gonna segregate, segregate the kids.

Besides they're easier to visibly spot...

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[LyraM45 0]

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Bingo, Millertime!!! You summed up exactly what I would have said to this myself and hit the nail on the head!

*** Perhaps there should be a quiet spot at the DZ where the adolecents can cuss and be as obnoxious as they want, away from the regular people. Of course I realize that it's not as much fun as when you share it with everyone, kinda like cigarette smoke.

Actually, I find more jumpers use profanity than not on a DZ. Kinda comes with the personality type that is a skydiver. That doesn't mean everybody, but I am saying most because you defined the people who use profanity as "not normal," and "adolescent." If you want to get into that argument, line me up 10 random jumpers from your DZ and give me the number of those that use any type of profanity in their language throughout the day. I am willing to bet it will be majority of them. I think you should re evaluate what is "normal," and watch the backdoor attacks by labeling people as "adolescents" who choose to use such language.

Edited to add-- What may be "normal" in this situation may not always be right. I'm one for the dz being a more adult oriented place for various reasons, but I don't always think its right (for the most part for me personally) to go dropping F-bombs every other second with kids around but people who choose to do so should be able to in an adult enviroment.

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

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[rehmwa 2]

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I feel that way about grocery stores and tennis courts too.

Actually, I feel that way about parks and playgrounds too.

The flaw in this logic is that childen can participate in these activities. In which part of skydiving is a child allowed to participate?

camping with the folks, watching the jumpers, grilling, hanging out with friends and being at the bonfire - if skydiving is part of my life, it's part of my daughter's life

so there's no flaw, skydiving is not special in the end, it's just another hobby. insecure newbies try to treat a day at the DZ like they would a big boogie, but that's not the same at all.

As for gratuitous profanity? I don't think it's so cool to drop it around adults either - it makes people sound like idiots. I think the same people swear in regular life as at the DZ. 13 year olds do it all the time to impress their friends - and their mothers think it's adorable.

so the boogie attitude - that's not the weekend DZ, that's a big adult party. It's not about skydiving, it's about the party - so I see not having the kids there (and dogs - which city people seem to confuse with human children).

the DZO can do whatever he wants in his regular business - depending on the demographics, it's either profitable or not to allow families. If he wants to advertise the DZ as the 'never ending boogie' then I'd expect to not see kids. If he wants a regular business of all aspects of society, then he'll let families come, singles come, anyone that wants to play.

What about full time live in DZ employees? do you expect them to keep their children in a tent off the DZ? I know quite a few full timers that also wish the weekenders would grow up and not totally trash the place every week.

There's a lot in here about respect vs an attitude of "yee haw, I can be an asshole whenever I feel like it!" It's not that big a deal to do a couple things:

behave with respect for others

but expect parents to be parents (which is really part of the first thing)


(again, those that complain about kids, are usually the same ones that have out of control kids at the DZ a few years later - they don't equate skydiving with a cool activity they love, instead the equate skydiving with irresponsibility - before and after they spawn their little demons)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billeisele 122]

Family friendly or Family oriented may just mean let's keep things clean for/around the tandem crowd and their family members, I don't have a problem with that because they generally stay away from the packing area and other areas with a lot of "skydiver" activity

but it is a problem when certain folks think it is OK to bring their kids and just leave them to do whatever they want and go where ever they choose, when they are laying around in the packing area and you gently ask them to move and you get attitude - that is a problem, when they disconnect the video wires on the TV so they can plug in their game players -that is a problem, when they are at the late night parties and things get crazy and someone says "careful there are kids around" - that is a problem, when they take the creepers to go play on - that is a problem

the real problem is the parents thinking that their kids don't bother anyone

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[brucet7 0]

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I guess the real answer is that a dz is the owner's sandbox and he can style it as he likes.

I agree with this. It depends on what kind of DZ the owners is interested in having. It would seem to me that the more tandems, and the more potential AFF students a place has, the more "family" it might need to be.

POPS #10623; SOS #1672

[wrightskyguy 1]

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Actually, I find more jumpers use profanity than not on a DZ. Kinda comes with the personality type that is a skydiver. That doesn't mean everybody, but I am saying most because you defined the people who use profanity as "not normal," and "adolescent." If you want to get into that argument, line me up 10 random jumpers from your DZ and give me the number of those that use any type of profanity in their language throughout the day. I am willing to bet it will be majority of them. I think you should re evaluate what is "normal," and watch the backdoor attacks by labeling people as "adolescents" who choose to use such language.



*** I was in the Navy 21 yrs, so I know a word or two myself, I simply pay attention to when and where I use them. Also, I never made Backdoor attacks on anyone, I'm right up front about it. If a person doesn't have the decency or ability to curb his/her words or actions when they are inappropriate, or if they feel it's their right to act however they please, whenever they please, then that is adolescent behavior. If anyone is offended by this, I don't care, they aren't my target demographic.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

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[The_Don 0]

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Family friendly or Family oriented may just mean let's keep things clean for/around the tandem crowd and their family members, I don't have a problem with that because they generally stay away from the packing area and other areas with a lot of "skydiver" activity

but it is a problem when certain folks think it is OK to bring their kids and just leave them to do whatever they want and go where ever they choose, when they are laying around in the packing area and you gently ask them to move and you get attitude - that is a problem, when they disconnect the video wires on the TV so they can plug in their game players -that is a problem, when they are at the late night parties and things get crazy and someone says "careful there are kids around" - that is a problem, when they take the creepers to go play on - that is a problem

the real problem is the parents thinking that their kids don't bother anyone

GREAT POST!!!!

I am NOT being loud.
I'm being enthusiastic!

[JohanW 0]

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The flaw in this logic is that childen can participate in these activities. In which part of skydiving is a child allowed to participate?

Packing.

If they're really too young for that, they can still be pack weights.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[NovaTTT 1]

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The thing you are forgetting is kids don't just show up to a DZ by themselves, someone has to bring them.

Sorry, but that's not true.

Back in the mid-90s my DZ was in a semi-rural area and there was a kid whose family lived across the street. He was ~11 yoa and came over frequently.

This kid was not the nicest or most courteous child, but neither was he bold or rude - he was just a kid. He was only told once to stay away from and to not fuck with the gear. I never saw him in a situation after that and he was over there all the time.

He just loved being at the DZ. I guess he fed on the vibes and excitement.

Kids on the DZ? Let the DZO decide. .02

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[millertime24 8]

Rehmwa,

You seriously endorse bringing young children to the bonfire? Let me ask you this. Would you bring your child to a bar, strip club, or a brothel? Usually the bonfire is a culmination of 1 or more of these.

To both of you,

In my mind, I have ZERO responsibility for your child period. Lets actually talk about responsibility for a minute. I am responsible enough to not create a child in the first place. This way I can go and do what I want how I want when I want. Some would argue this is selfish behavior, however, you cant deny there is at least a hint of responsibility there. So the whole "you just dont have kids yet" argument doesn't fly with me.

Now those people who CHOSE to have a child (and theres nothing wrong with that) must be responsible for that child. It shouldn't be my job to watch for kids tripping over my lines while Im trying to pack my canopy. Same with the language. If you know certain people use foul language it is YOUR responsibily to either sheild your kid from it or let them be a part of it. Now if I have a parent tell me to watch my language around their kid then I do my best to comply so long as that kid is behaving itself and be properly supervised by a guardian. Nuff said on that.

That just leaves the tandem customers. I thought I already made it perfectly clear about this subject but I will elaborate to alieve any confusion. When I'm around tandems I WATCH MY LANGUAGE. Why? Because they are the ones who keep the plane in the air most of the time. When they leave the dz I want them leaving with the best possible experience so they will go and tell their friends about us and we can keep that plane flying.

As far as "trashing" the place while the beer light is on? That is totally unacceptable behavior in my book. If you want to drink, fine. If you want to get naked in public, fine. Hell, I dont care if you're fucking in public, but how friggin hard is it to throw your trash away, clean up your clothing articles, and just in general not break shit? I get drunk but I damn sure dont leave beer cans strewn about for someone else to clean up the next morning.

Now I also believe that it's the dzo's choice of what they allow to go on at their dz and if I'm visiting a dz Ill be sure and take a few hours to 'feel out' what is tollerated and what isnt and act accordingly. It is, after all, their buisness.

Anyway, these are my beliefs. You dont have to agree with them or even like them.

Muff #5048

[wrightskyguy 1]

This are my final thoughts on this thread as it is getting dull. I was talking about acting like a grown up and being considerate of others at the DZ, but since it has turned into a child at the DZ thing, I'll finish on that. I've only been going to the DZ for about 18 yrs now, but my experience has been that I have NEVER had an instance where having children around has taken away from my fun, in fact, just the opposite is true. Have kids ever inadvertantly stepped on my lines? Of course they have, but so have about 500 skydivers. Have I ever had to get my
helmet back from a child because they were playing Star Wars with it? Sure have, but it's never something that could'nt be fixed by asking them not to do that anymore. I can tell you with certainty that I've never had to throw away packing carpet because some drunk child vomited all over it. I've never had to ask a child to quit using phrases like "stupid niggers" or "Fucking dumbshits" in a crowded pacing area because they thought it was their right. I've also never had to drag a child, drunk and unconcious out of the classroom in the morning so that I could teach as class. All this and more I have had to do with "adult Skydivers". You may have Zero responsibility for my child, but rest assured that you are responsible for your actions when you're around my child. Given your limited time in the sport, I find it hard to believe that you've had all that many issues with kids unless you're incredibally thin skinned. This is just my opinion, but I believe that children are a blessing and I feel sad for those that think otherwise. How sad and angry must a person be to dislike children?

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

[The111 0]

The examples you've given were all hateful and insulting regardless of the language used. Racism, insults, and disrepect of property (the drunk guy in your classroom).

That sort of shit (insulting and disrespectful behavior) is indeed wrong and shouldn't happen with or without children around, and it has nothing to do with "family values" but with "human values." It is also a lot different discussion that the original discussion in this thread, which is that of a DZO kicking somebody out for saying a "bad" word (fuck)... which is harmless in itself and does not express hate or anything negative or disrespectful toward another human.

You can insult somebody without cursing, example:
"Hey idiot, get your stupid rig out of my way!"

And you can curse without insulting someone:
"That swoop was hot as shit!"

Interestingly enough, I heard one of the major proponents in this thread of "family values" at a DZ this weekend with "bad words" coming out of his mouth when children might have been within earshot (the exact phrase was something regarding "that swooping shit"). Now JohnRich, if the DZO had kicked you out for saying "shit," would that have been ok?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[poe62 0]

The only time I've had an issue with kids at the dz was when our beloved pilot's (7 year old ?)daughter chased me around the hangar with a grasshopper. I like bugs less than I like kids.

~Nikki
http://www.facebook.com/poe62

Irgity Dirgity

[peek 20]

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This are my final thoughts on this thread as it is getting dull.

Well, I did my part, bringing up a topic involving women skydiving in swimsuit tops, but then so many people wanted to talk about kids and foul language! :)

[millertime24 8]

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Well, I did my part, bringing up a topic involving women skydiving in swimsuit tops, but then all these people just wanted to talk about kids and foul language! :)

"Family Oriented" and "Kid Friendly" pretty much go hand in hand.

And for the record, I dont hate kids. I simply tollerate them.

Muff #5048

[rehmwa 2]

I have no problems with your entire post, if you read my posts, we agree on most all the points.

Except that a bonfire can be many things, not just your boogie attitude and your post tone. If a bonfire is moving out of hand, it's time for the kids to go to the camper, it's not time to have the others settle down - one can respenct the other adults and care for their kids.

If it gets REALLY out of hand, then most of the adults tend to go away as it is, because at that point, the others are being assholes and they are NOT respecting the other adults. Again, these are the ones that tend to also complain about kids are also the ones being inconsiderate of the adults too. You know it's true.

I also agree with wright's response to your post that the most irresponsible behavior tends to come from the pseudo-adults.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jammindave 0]

here's how i see it, since i experenced this stuff as a kid, kids will here it from kids, what adults say is nothing like what us kids said. us kids were worse. and if they are really young, it's only a matter of time.

[Tuna-Salad 0]

So I guess since a chick in a swimsuit violates the "family oriented" rule...
I guess swimming pools, pool parties and the beach are also not family oriented activites or locations.
That is probably being said by a guy who spends half his paycheck at the local titty bar.

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[Tuna-Salad 0]

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Rehmwa,

You seriously endorse bringing young children to the bonfire? Let me ask you this. Would you bring your child to a bar, strip club, or a brothel? Usually the bonfire is a culmination of 1 or more of these.

To both of you,

In my mind, I have ZERO responsibility for your child period. Lets actually talk about responsibility for a minute. I am responsible enough to not create a child in the first place. This way I can go and do what I want how I want when I want. Some would argue this is selfish behavior, however, you cant deny there is at least a hint of responsibility there. So the whole "you just dont have kids yet" argument doesn't fly with me.

Now those people who CHOSE to have a child (and theres nothing wrong with that) must be responsible for that child. It shouldn't be my job to watch for kids tripping over my lines while Im trying to pack my canopy. Same with the language. If you know certain people use foul language it is YOUR responsibily to either sheild your kid from it or let them be a part of it. Now if I have a parent tell me to watch my language around their kid then I do my best to comply so long as that kid is behaving itself and be properly supervised by a guardian. Nuff said on that.

That just leaves the tandem customers. I thought I already made it perfectly clear about this subject but I will elaborate to alieve any confusion. When I'm around tandems I WATCH MY LANGUAGE. Why? Because they are the ones who keep the plane in the air most of the time. When they leave the dz I want them leaving with the best possible experience so they will go and tell their friends about us and we can keep that plane flying.

As far as "trashing" the place while the beer light is on? That is totally unacceptable behavior in my book. If you want to drink, fine. If you want to get naked in public, fine. Hell, I dont care if you're fucking in public, but how friggin hard is it to throw your trash away, clean up your clothing articles, and just in general not break shit? I get drunk but I damn sure dont leave beer cans strewn about for someone else to clean up the next morning.

Now I also believe that it's the dzo's choice of what they allow to go on at their dz and if I'm visiting a dz Ill be sure and take a few hours to 'feel out' what is tollerated and what isnt and act accordingly. It is, after all, their buisness.

Anyway, these are my beliefs. You dont have to agree with them or even like them.

I couldn't agree more with the very first statement.. I have ZERO responsibility for YOUR child. Becase YOU choose to bring YOUR child somewhere I should not have to alter MY behavior to accomodate.

For those of you who insist on bringing your kids.. why not pitch in to build a play area on the DZ or something? Complete with razor wire and key locks to make sure the little monsters cannot escape and pester the non child having heathens.

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[JohnRich 4]

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Interestingly enough, I heard one of the major proponents in this thread of "family values" at a DZ this weekend with "bad words" coming out of his mouth when children might have been within earshot (the exact phrase was something regarding "that swooping shit").

"Children might have been within earshot?"

Were they, or were they not?

How far away is "within earshot"?

Where was I when you heard me say this, and what time of day was it?

[skymama 35]

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If a person doesn't have the decency or ability to curb his/her words or actions when they are inappropriate, or if they feel it's their right to act however they please, whenever they please, then that is adolescent behavior.

+1, wholeheartedly.

I also think parents have the responsibility to bring their kids home from the dz if the situation might not be appropriate for children. After all, just because you can take your kids to an R rated movie, doesn't mean you should. When the Bonfire starts, which is when most of the shenanigans start, it might be a good time to take the kids home, have a family dinner and put them to bed at a decent hour.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[Andy9o8 0]

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I believe that children are a blessing and I feel sad for those that think otherwise. How sad and angry must a person be to dislike children?

Deliberate demagoguery. You know fully well that's not what people are saying, that's not what they mean, and that's not what this is about. This statement crosses the line from disagreeing with people's opinions, to demonizing the people with whom you disagree.

[The111 0]

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"Children might have been within earshot?"

Were they, or were they not?

How far away is "within earshot"?

Where was I when you heard me say this, and what time of day was it?

You were on the packing mat, and I was about 20 feet away and heard you very clearly. I don't know if there were any children nearby because it's not something I was looking for. But I do know the hangar was full of people, of all ages. So let's forget about children and just focus on people. It didn't offend me, but let's assume it offended someone. Or even better, let's assume it offended nobody, other than the DZO who had a policy against four letter words, like a similar policy mentioned earlier in this thread, which you seemingly approved of. What then?

Earlier in this thread you alluded to your opinion that using such language, even around adults, is "disrespectful" of others around you. So, when I observed you using such language at a DZ around many people, only days after that post, I certainly wasn't offended, but I was amused by the irony.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[popsjumper 2]

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...How sad and angry must a person be to dislike children?

Not very....not at all actually. Evidently you equate "a dislike for children" with "sad and angry".

In reality, it's not the kids...kids do stupid shit. It's to be expected. The whole problem lies with the parents who let them run wild and unsupervised that creates the problems.

You (in the collective sense) let your kids run wild and unsupervised? YOU are the bozo (in the kindest, gentlest way I can put it right now). Yes, you....over there...YOU! I'm talking about YOU! No, don't look around like it's somebody else...it's YOU.



I'd like to get back to Peek's "women skydiving in swimsuit tops". I really have a hard time dealing with that. I mean, it's soooooo distracting, don't you think?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239