Unintentional Downwinder

[helldog 0]

While comming in for landing on a variable wind day, the sock was straight down indicating no wind. know that the winds were squirly I decided on a straight in approach in the direction that the wind had been comming from previously that day. Much to my supprise at somwhere between 15 to 20 feet above the ground the wind began blowing 10 to 15 mph directly behind me. (I was unaware of this as the sock was now out of my vision). The first instant I knew something was amiss was when the ground was rushing by ant 25 mph +. What was disconcerting was as i flared and ran like hell, my canopy did not get the lift I was expecting (remember still didnt know that the wind was behind me). The end result was an ugly plf (ok a wipe out) that resulted in a nasty bruise on the outside of my right calf. The point being here, is be ready for anything, even on a straight in approach things can go bad real quick.

Blues
Jim

[tigra 0]

Well, first mistake- on a no wind/ low wind day, aren't you supposed to determine the landing direction and pattern before you even board the plane? Or were you in the air all by yourself?

[AggieDave 6]

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Well, first mistake- on a no wind/ low wind day, aren't you supposed to determine the landing direction and pattern before you even board the plane? Or were you in the air all by yourself?

No matter what the winds are for the day, its good to figure out your flight plan before you get in the loading area for the plane. Doing it by the seat of your pants won't make you good, accurate or very safe really, since you won't have a plan.

The top swoopers figure out a flight plan for their patterns so they can have a perfect pattern to be right over the gates for a perfect swoop. So its not just something that students "have" to do.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skybytch 259]

If you can't land your current canopy downwind without injury, upsizing might be a good idea.

Shit happens. Choose your gear so that you are sure you can walk away when it happens to you.

[helldog 0]

No canopy no matter how big can gurauntee that you wont get hurt. You catch a rotor at 20 feet above the ground under a lighty loaded canopy your still going down. Whether you get hurt or not depends on how you react to the situation. A good plf might save you and might not. We dont land on nice soft grass or even sand, its rock hard dirt.
JMHO

Blues
Jim

[helldog 0]

As I said winds were variable. The first three jumpers landed in three different directions (chasing the wind sock) By the time i started my base leg the sock had gone flat. It stayed flat I'm told until I was almost on the ground (like 15'). Hind sight being 20 20 If I had realized that the wind had picked up directly behind me I would of reeled up the legs a bit and tryed to slide it in. (bruised ass instead of bruised calf).

Blues
Jim

[tigra 0]

The first was sort of a rhetorical question. I know the importance of a flight plan, and what concerned me most about the post was the fact that he seemed to be determining his pattern and landing direction while he was in the air. That's way more scary to me than a downwinder, especially if there was anyone else in the air with him.

[tigra 0]

3 jumpers, 3 landing directions? You don't see a problem with that?

[davelepka 4]

Your story is BS. If there was no wind, and at 15' the wind picked up speed quickly enough to effect your canopy before you landed (at 15' you only have a second or two of flight time left) your canopy would have stalled, and dropped you on your ass.

What do you think happens to your airspeed if you go from no wind to an instant 10 to 15mph tailwind? It would quickly drop to a very low, possibly negative number, both of which equal a stall.

Take another look at the incident, and re-evaluate either your perceptions, or the actual events (becasue these are two different things). Once you come to a realistic conclucion, then attempt to learn something from this incident.

[skybytch 259]

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No canopy no matter how big can gurauntee that you wont get hurt.

Right. And you can die crossing the street. Do you look both ways before stepping out into traffic?

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You catch a rotor at 20 feet above the ground under a lighty loaded canopy your still going down. Whether you get hurt or not depends on how you react to the situation.

Been there, done that (although it was more like 50-75 feet), walked away because I was flying a canopy I was able to land in all conditions without injury.

A lighter loading equals less speed, both vertical and horizontal. Less speed equals fewer or not as serious injuries when shit does happen.

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A good plf might save you and might not.

A good PLF has saved more people more times than you may think. Because it may or may not save me is not a reason to not do it.

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We dont land on nice soft grass or even sand, its rock hard dirt.

Where I jump, the really good people land on asphalt. They stand up regardless of the wind speed or direction. Why? Because they aren't flying wings that are beyond their ability to safely land when conditions change (or shit happens).

[TALONSKY 0]

I think Lisa is right; you need to be able to land your canopy downwind. In the last few years there have been a few deaths from people making low turns to get faced into the wind. You do not necessarily need to be able to do perfect stand up landings downwind but you should be able to land safely downwind or you should get coaching or upsize.
Kirk

[helldog 0]

I agree
Thanks for the constructive comment
Perhaps i need to practice the downwinders
Ive only had one other and that was at eloy when the pattern was set downwind by the first jumper.
That one I was prepared for and had no problem with landing it. I guess this caught me by suprise, usually my canopy has so much flare power this time there was little, It was not a pleasant feeling.
Blues
Jim

[TALONSKY 0]

By the way, ever watch what happens when an entire load is taken downwind. At least at my Dz you are get to see at least a few less than perfect downwind landings. I think it is a problem for quite a few jumpers. I know personally I would like to get much better at my downwind landings .
Kirk

[AggieDave 6]

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usually my canopy has so much flare power this time there was little, It was not a pleasant feeling.

This statement is what catches my attention.

Your canopy has the same amount of "flare power" when doing a downwind or a crosswind or into the wind, your canopy has no clue where the wind is when flaring. Infact, your canopy is still maintaining the same airspeed, as far as it knows. The difference is your relation to the ground, its faster, slower or possibly going a bit sideways.

So typically what lower experience (and some experienced jumpers who don't do downwinds/crosswinds) do is the visual of the ground moving differently then what they are used to get them in the toggles early, much higher and much slower. So instead of doing the perfect flare into a full finish, they bleed off speed and end up loosing the airspeed over the airfoil (the canopy) to generate the normal amount of lift. Nevermind that people tend to have a problem with finishing their flare when something is different.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AndyMan 7]

I agree. His description simply doesn't make sense.

Sudden gusts from behind do not cause the canopy to accerate forwards.

Sudden gusts from behind cause the canopy to stall, and drop straight down until it recovers and rejoins equilibrium. When that scenario happens at 15 feet, it usually means a femur.

The fact that the jumper found himself in a downwind landing means categorically that it was not a gust, but sustained winds that put him there.

Correct observation of current winds is critical to a long and injury free skydiving career.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[davelepka 4]

This is where his story is partailly correct. If he did get an increased tailwind at or near the time of his flare, the airspeed of his canopy would decrease, thus reducing his flare power.

Much like when landing into gusty winds, if your flare needs to occur just after a gust has diminished, your airspeed will be loer, and flare power reduced. Actaully all of your control inptus will reduced effectiveness during these conditions.

The concept that a canopy is not 'aware' of the wind speed or direction is only applicable provided that the wind speed or direction is constant. A change in either one of those can/will effect your canopies arispeed, which will effect your control sensitivity.

[AggieDave 6]

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The concept that a canopy is not 'aware' of the wind speed or direction is only applicable provided that the wind speed or direction is constant. A change in either one of those can/will effect your canopies arispeed, which will effect your control sensitivity.

I agree. I just got a different understanding of what he said happened in how he wrote it. Since he stated that other had followed the windsock on his load, then there was most likely wind and I took it to be more of an overal situational awareness issue that put him downwind then a windsock that was limp then instantly blowing 15mph.

That's just my take, so I wanted to cover some basics about the canopy, like flight plans, groundspeed vs. airspeed and such to help him out (and maybe others that are reading, you never know).

Since I wasn't there and we haven't seen a video we don't know for sure exactly how things happened.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 2,396]

> No canopy no matter how big can gurauntee that you wont get hurt.

Of course. But appropriate skills can do it, and if you don't have the skills, then a larger canopy will reduce the pain.

>Whether you get hurt or not depends on how you react to the situation.

And how fast you are going when you hit. Larger canopies don't go as fast.

[bodypilot1 0]

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Where I jump, the really good people land on asphalt. They stand up regardless of the wind speed or direction. Why? Because they aren't flying wings that are beyond their ability to safely land when conditions change (or shit happens).

I have seen MANY experienced people land on that asphalt downwind, or into the wind over the last 10yrs there, and at times the ONLY reason they stand up the landings is because of the gravel thats letting them slide their feet on the asphalt, as the small canopies they are flying no longer are producing enough lift to keep then hanging in the harness.
I have even seen many get get off of it with bloody hands and knees from it, and a few even with a ruined harness and container from sliding face down or on their ass.

The prefered landing into the wind into the wind pattern is always better for your canopies lift, but at times people do make mistakes and misread the winds.

Be prepared to do a great PLF , or jump at a DZ that has a good smooth grass landing area that you can slide on, is always a good choice.

Jump canopy that is right for your exit weight and your experience level.



Be safe.
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[skybytch 259]

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I have even seen many get get off of it with bloody hands and knees from it, and a few even with a ruined harness and container from sliding face down or on their ass.

Okay, you've been jumping there a lot longer than I have - I've only seen/heard about three skinned knees in the four months I've been here (two highly experienced jumpers, one not so highly experienced jumper).

None of them blamed the wind for their owies, they blamed the pilot. The people who jump pocket rockets here seem to be aware of the risks they are taking with their canopies and with their choice to swoop asphalt; only one of them is possibly under something a bit more aggressive than he might be ready for (and his skinned knee was due to an unexpected downwind landing).

I think that was my point... lack of caffeine can be a bad thing. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

[helldog 0]

I agree its a pilot problem. I attempting to become a better pilot thats why I posted. Getting some good feed back on whats happening on a downwind landing is helping. I'm wondering if my impression of lack of lift was really the canopy beginning to stall.But my flare was not high, but some of the comments made make me believe that I may not have completed it. Suffice I was in a unfamiliar position and would like to know how to react better to it so as to not repeat the mistake.

Blues
Jim

[davelepka 4]

Understand that the suggestion of a stall was due to a change in the airspeed via a gusting tailwind, not due to any pilot input.

When the airspeed dropped, adding brakes helped, as it lowered the stall speed, but there was little else you could do if the tailwind increased to a factor greater than your stall speed.

The solution is not to get yourself into that position. Jumping in gusty winds, either landing into or with the wind is ill advised. The gusts and their effects on your canopy are out of your control, and can result in further incidents.

The tailwind problems are not limited to canopies. Many AC's have stalled and crashed when the pilot was making his turn to the base leg. Coming off of the downwind leg, many pilots are flying slow in the pattern, and combined with the tailwind and a too steep of a turn, the AC will stall, and at pattern altitude, there isn't enough altitude to recover.

[peregrinerose 0]

Had one of these unintentional downwinds myself. As a new jumper it wasn't pleasant. Ground winds 17-18 mph when I left the ground, fairly consistent, occasionally dropped a bit and picked back up, but the high was 18. I always check wind meter frequently before jumping so I don't get in over my head. Our DZ has a waiver so students jump up to 16 mph wind, so this wasn't a stretch on what I had jumped in the past.

What I didn't know is that by the time we hit altitude (cessna), winds were gusting to 28 mph. If I had known, I would have enjoyed the view as I landed with the plane, so it was a bit of a surprise.

I completely misjudged the winds and how my canopy would react. Instead of turning low and killing myself, I landed cross/downwind. Flared well, didn't even try to stand it up though I probably could have, wasn't hurt. I learned a lot after talking with the DZO, how to work much better in higher wind situations. But there's no way I'd voluntarily jump higher than 18mph anyway, so it will be a very long time before that happens again (I hope!!).

It wasn't pretty, I would never have jumped in winds that high, but I learned a lot. I was flat out lucky to have gotten so many lessons in one jump without injury.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Orange1 0]

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Jumping in gusty winds, either landing into or with the wind is ill advised./

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Are you saying that one should land crosswind when it's gusty, or am I misreading you? Can you expand on the reasoning please?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

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[davelepka 4]

Yeah, misreading, bigtime.

Let me rephrase that. "Jumping in gusty winds is ill advised." The thread was about a downwinder, but I wanted to be inclusive of into the wind landings as well.

In gusty condidtions, you run the risk of your landing coinciding with a diminishing gust (if you're into the wind) or an increasing gust (if you're downwind). Both will effectively reduce the arispeed fo your canopy. This can lead to reduced flare performance or possibly a stall.

With all the variables involved in canopy flight, adding greatly variable wind speeds only serves to complicate the situation.