surfbum5412 0 #26 July 13, 2009 QuoteI like that as well........ after all it is the freefall time that matters! 150 jumps with half being hop and pops or exits from 5500 isn't quite the same. Exactly how many people do you know have 75 hop-n-pops during their first 150 jumps? I see your point, but generally speaking, I don't know anyone that would rack up a lot of hop-n-pops at such a low jump number. My guess would be because they're not at a canopy size where swooping is fashionable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 0 #27 July 13, 2009 QuoteQuoteI like that as well........ after all it is the freefall time that matters! 150 jumps with half being hop and pops or exits from 5500 isn't quite the same. Exactly how many people do you know have 75 hop-n-pops during their first 150 jumps? I see your point, but generally speaking, I don't know anyone that would rack up a lot of hop-n-pops at such a low jump number. My guess would be because they're not at a canopy size where swooping is fashionable. Oh I've watched it happen! I do agree getting stable and pulling is the important thing but the other important thing is air awareness and tracking skills. I just do not buy that in 50 to 100 jumps you can build what you need. Just because nothing ever happened to you does not mean you had the air awarness you needed. By the way I was an AFF wonder myself and had my card signed off on in 13 jumps which happenes to be when I had my first chop ;) AS a coach now I just see students that are working through belly stuff and I shudder at the thought of them getting off student status and starting to freefly. JMOLife is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
packerboy 3 #28 July 13, 2009 How soon is too soon to start freeflying? Before you let go of the aircraft! -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #29 July 13, 2009 QuoteAS a coach now I just see students that are working through belly stuff and I shudder at the thought of them getting off student status and starting to freefly. JMO Why? What difference does it make what they are trying to do as they flail around? As long as they can remain in their part of the sky, be altitude aware, and pull on time, I'd say that's a successful freefall. All of those apply to belly fliers as well. How about we worry less about freefall, and more about canopy control and related education. Last time I checked, landing a good canopy produced far more incidents than freefalling, yet jumpers spend far more time dirt diving and door jaming than they do considering their canopy control. Look at the laundry list of freefall activities we require a student to complete before they can have a license. Turning, floating, sinking, diving, different exits, etc, all of which take large investments in terms of time to train for, yet the canopy control from jump to jump remains largely the same, fly the pattern and flare before impact. Where is the understanding of how the canopy works? How about object turbulence, how to predict it, and handle it if you should encounter it? How about ideas for accurately predicting your glide? How about a flow chart for making the call to land off, then how to select a good alternate LZ, and an alternate-alternate when you notice some power lines from 1500ft? Freefall is a game. It's a time killer until you dump, that's why they call it a 'delay', because pulling and the aftermath are what's important. Get it together, and teach people skills they can use to save their lives, not hold hands with their friends. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skron 0 #30 July 14, 2009 I started sitflying at 25 jumps. On jump 49 I broke my back when I dumped immediately after coming out of a sit. Obviously I didn't fully understand the dangers of the higher speeds of freeflying. Not to mention I now have 502 jumps, I am a good freeflyer and freestylist but am hesitant to get on RW loads because I am not confident with my belly skills. I don't think there should be a 'general standard' for freeflying. First of all like any other standard, if it were set at say 100 jumps, that limit would be pushed by many to 75 or 50. Also, in skydiving, it always depends and the student (and student should mean someone learning any new discipline no matter how many jumps) should defer to their instructors for guidance. One jumper may be ready for something at 100 jumps when another might not be ready for the same thing at 300 or more. Maybe this belongs in another thread, but one other thing I can't help but notice is the number of people with less than 300 jumps referring to other jumpers as their students. This just scares me. And before you fire back with Coach Rating requirements, I am fully aware of them...but it still scares me. I know at 502 jumps I have so much more to learn, I am not ready to have anyone else be considered my "student".Well behaved women don't often make history. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surfbum5412 0 #31 July 14, 2009 QuoteI started sitflying at 25 jumps. On jump 49 I broke my back when I dumped immediately after coming out of a sit. Obviously I didn't fully understand the dangers of the higher speeds of freeflying. Not to mention I now have 502 jumps, I am a good freeflyer and freestylist but am hesitant to get on RW loads because I am not confident with my belly skills. I don't think there should be a 'general standard' for freeflying. First of all like any other standard, if it were set at say 100 jumps, that limit would be pushed by many to 75 or 50. Also, in skydiving, it always depends and the student (and student should mean someone learning any new discipline no matter how many jumps) should defer to their instructors for guidance. One jumper may be ready for something at 100 jumps when another might not be ready for the same thing at 300 or more. Maybe this belongs in another thread, but one other thing I can't help but notice is the number of people with less than 300 jumps referring to other jumpers as their students. This just scares me. And before you fire back with Coach Rating requirements, I am fully aware of them...but it still scares me. I know at 502 jumps I have so much more to learn, I am not ready to have anyone else be considered my "student". Dude, as much as your opening speed might be an ingredient for a hard opening, there are way more important factors that contributed to you breaking your back. Coming out of a sit (approx. 145 mph) and pulling is not a significant factor to blow your back out. I've seen guys pull in a head down flock...I'm sure they don't let the *cough* slider slip down at all when packing *cough* See the thread above yours. I agree with him completely. To me, skydiving is freeflying. A person that learns to fly in all 4 orientations is all around, a better body pilot. It is not an advanced discipline; it includes learning to fly your body in all orientations, including belly. As long as someone has freefly-friendly gear, gives good separation, and turns perpendicular to the line of flight...who gives a fuck how much the flail. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #32 July 14, 2009 "learn to love your belly before you begin exploring your butt....." Until my incident, I'd been shooting lots of AFF Instructor candidates. It is immediately obvious who started freeflying right away vs those that had waited. Nothing wrong with freeflying right away, just be aware that it may have an impact on how well you'll do during coach/AFFI examinations. Seen several very good freeflyers fail the AFF program. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rlucus 0 #33 July 14, 2009 Quote Maybe this belongs in another thread, but one other thing I can't help but notice is the number of people with less than 300 jumps referring to other jumpers as their students. This just scares me. And before you fire back with Coach Rating requirements, I am fully aware of them...but it still scares me. I know at 502 jumps I have so much more to learn, I am not ready to have anyone else be considered my "student". Just because we have more to learn doesn't mean we aren't qualified to share what we have. I have dedicated myself to becoming an instructor since I started. Studying the literature, dedicating jumps for specific training, hours of tunnel time. So yes I have a lot to learn, and yes I have my own students that I have coached since they got off the leash at my own cost. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #34 July 14, 2009 Quote Maybe this belongs in another thread, but one other thing I can't help but notice is the number of people with less than 300 jumps referring to other jumpers as their students. This just scares me. And before you fire back with Coach Rating requirements, I am fully aware of them...but it still scares me. I know at 502 jumps I have so much more to learn, I am not ready to have anyone else be considered my "student". As a wise person once said: Quote One jumper may be ready for something at 100 jumps when another might not be ready for the same thing at 300 or more. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gato 0 #35 July 14, 2009 Please forgive my noobishness, but.... Isn't this one of those questions (like wingsuiting) in which some people with less than 500 jumps are likely to say, "Sure, go ahead whenever you're ready." And the important question seems to be, "Is your rig FF friendly?" Also, I don't recall seeing any discussion about the corresponding higher horizontal speeds during FF dives. (Incidentally, my rig is NOT FF friendly, so I won't be trying any freeflying for a little while.)T.I.N.S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blink 0 #36 July 14, 2009 QuoteAlso, I don't recall seeing any discussion about the corresponding higher horizontal speeds during FF dives. Ugh, unless I'm doing it wrong, you're not supposed to have high horizontal speed. You're not supposed to have any a all, that's the whole point of falling down the "tube". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rlucus 0 #37 July 14, 2009 QuoteAnd the important question seems to be, "Is your rig FF friendly?" Minimum appropriate gear is a given and no one will argue it. The question is not what gear is needed, but what skill is needed. QuoteAlso, I don't recall seeing any discussion about the corresponding higher horizontal speeds during FF dives. While the potential for high horizontal speeds is a concern for the beginning FF, especially not paying attention to ground speed and direction. I believe you meant vertical speeds, which leads back to the question of how much skill/practice at slower speeds should you have before moving into faster, more disorienting positions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kimemerson 7 #38 July 14, 2009 As long as a skydiver has the ability to pull, pull at the right altitude and pull stable, can track away from others and not present a danger to him/herself or others, then how one orients one's body to the planet is of little consequence. As far as I'm concerned it is entirely feasible to teach skydiving in a head down/freefly position. I don't know who could do it now, but there's no reason to think it couldn't be done. So, how soon is too early? When you can't get stable and pull at a safe altitude or get away from others to pull. Getting the awareness to be a safe skydiver is not contingent on discipline. All the disciplines require extreme awareness. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #39 July 14, 2009 QuoteJust curious what everyone thinks. I am of the mind that building air awareness and belly skills is VERY important and think around the 150-200 mark should be a general standard. You need to be proficient (but not competitive) at flat RW. When the body position itself is hard isn't the time to be learning how to approach and dock on formations. Flat is the greatest common denominator for sunset/birthday/X00 jump/pickup loads and you don't want to be left out of the fun. Maybe that's a hundred jumps. Now days tunnel time would substitute. You also need enough time so that free fall isn't overwhelming so you can notice when you didn't hear your audible and the ground has snuck up on you. 200 jumps is the wing-suit numbers. There's less to deal with when freeflying. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surfbum5412 0 #40 July 14, 2009 QuoteIsn't this one of those questions (like wingsuiting) in which some people with less than 500 jumps are likely to say, "Sure, go ahead whenever you're ready." No, it is not. To me, skydiving is freeflying (4 axis of body flight). A safe and common progression is necessary, but if you want to be a freeflyer, you should start immediately. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #41 July 14, 2009 5000 jumps. by that time you should be a world champion 4 way RW competetor... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #42 July 14, 2009 I used to jump in the base for hybrids, but I won't do it anymore. First reason is I got sick and tired of having the crap beat out of me by freeflyers who don't know how to dock gently. Second reason is when the base broke off, as planned, I'd turn to track away and find a bunch of people straight below going la-di-da on their backs with big silly grins, but who hadn't cleared the fuck out of the area. If they were belly flyers I'd have kicked some asses back on the ground. On the other hand, I do know some freeflyers who are simply amazing. Most of them are also amazing belly fliers when they want to be. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #43 July 15, 2009 Most modern student progressions teach basic freeflying skills around jump number 15 or so. As an instructor, it's entertaining because the student almost always flails uncontrollably as they try to master the new positions. However, the few times I've been surprised at the successes are some of my favorite jumps. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tetra316 0 #44 July 15, 2009 Quote First reason is I got sick and tired of having the crap beat out of me by freeflyers who don't know how to dock gently. +1 although it's very entertaining to watch bad ass free flyers totally flail trying to belly fly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #45 July 15, 2009 Quotefind a bunch of people straight below going la-di-da on their backs with big silly grins, but who hadn't cleared the fuck out of the area. If they were belly flyers I'd have kicked some asses back on the ground. I don't understand why you didn't 'kick some ass on the ground' anyway."That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ruudwas 0 #46 July 15, 2009 Well my .02 make sure you have the right gear to do FF with. And I mean all gear necessary. Get briefed by an instructor who knows what he is talking about. Don't go do it without the briefing. He can also do a gear check ;). Some earlier post have already shown that it could end up to be a painful experience. If the person who is asking for the briefing is not qualified yet, well that's the moment he will be stopped before doing anything stupid ;) So, it could be someone with as little as 30 jumps ;) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sebinoslo 0 #47 July 16, 2009 I didn't try any FF at all until I got my A-license simply because the student was not FF-friendly. So I work on the mantis and FS techniques. Since I can only jump with 2 other people for the moment and most groups are larger than that, if I have to jump alone I sit - I find it fun for now. I would never contemplate doing any FF with anyone around me - except those at the DZ with over 1000 FF jumps. 2 people posted on this thread doing FF when working toward their A-license. I know some at my DZ who were also doing so. It seems intructors do not stress enough that (most?) student rigs are not FF friendly, that the leg straps will tend to slide down in a sit etc...I only found out when asking whether I could try tracking on my back for a change and was told that it was a really bad idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LyraM45 0 #48 July 17, 2009 QuoteQuoteI think the answere is, it depends. How fast do you learn? Is your rig ff friendly? How many hours of tunnel time do you have? What do the instructors think about your skill level? Tons of things go into it IMO. For example, if you just got off of aff and have an "A" license, but have been tunnel flying since you were 6 I would say that as soon as you have a ff friendly rig and a coach then why not 30-35 jumps? I see what you are saying but the tunnel does not teach air awarness and a few other things that are important...... MT said what I would have said basically, but then you came back and said what I would have said after him. I am not an experienced flyer at all, but I was blessed enough with the opprotunity to work at a wind tunnel for a little while, so I can hold my own on some freefly jumps for the most part. What the tunnel did not teach me is the situational awareness that I will need on a skydive. It did not teach me currency with my gear and emergency procedures. For this reason, I still freefly by myself or in very small groups head up on my jumps. A tunnel rat with 30 jumps under his belt may be a bad ass flyer, but for the reasons listed above, I voted at least 100 jumps (pref. in the past year or so for currency) to get into hard core freeflying (harcore meaning busting out 10 ways and doing anything much past solo's or coached jumps.)Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twodarhythm 0 #49 July 17, 2009 Quote I started at jump 17. I have 18 jumps, and im dying to freefly! You are an inspiration! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 0 #50 July 17, 2009 Quote Quote I started at jump 17. I have 18 jumps, and im dying to freefly! You are an inspiration! Many are but whether you think you need 50, 100, or more...... I'm sorry at 17 jumps it is flat out a BAD idea. JMHO Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
