USPA Collegiate Nationals is no longer allowing grad students to compete

[pms07 3]

I don't know why such a motion might have been presented or passed by USPA but am curious. Bill Wenger may be visiting this week and, if that happens, I will ask him. I don't expect there is any great conspiracy however. In fact, at the dozen or so USPA collegiate meets I've been at, the total number of graduate students competing is not zero but pretty close. Still, I remember Jan there in 86 and a few others.

I coached many collegiate teams, was chairman of the collegiate committee for USPA for several years, and was also the collegiate championships meet director (Eloy) as well. I never viewed the graduate student clause as an issue back then but I guess things could have changed.

[NiteQwill 0]

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Help me understand something I never have; why do the USPA Collegiate Nationals even exist?

I'm not just pissing in your corn flakes here. I really don't understand why they just aren't folded into the regular Nationals and play by the exact same rules.

The same reason the NBA, NFL, and collegiate sports teams exist...

"Fail, fail again. Fail better."
-Samuel Beckett

[Happick 0]

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the wording 'more than 24 years old' means a person who is 24 years old is eligible or not (technically, immediately after your 24th birthday, you are 'older' than 24

Not really a problem. If you're used to reading legalize, you understand that the original wording limits the age to the change of the YEAR of your age. Thus, once you turn 25, that portion of the statute was invoked.

Maybe so, but there was a slight issue with the interpretation at the 2008 Collegiates, which is why I think they tried to clarify.

[quade 3]

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Help me understand something I never have; why do the USPA Collegiate Nationals even exist?

I'm not just pissing in your corn flakes here. I really don't understand why they just aren't folded into the regular Nationals and play by the exact same rules.

The same reason the NBA, NFL, and collegiate sports teams exist...

No. I'm not buying it. Main stream college sport teams exist as a source of revenue. While there maybe the occasional professional skydiving team, they're restricted to the Open class and virtually everyone plays by the same rules.

So, either you're missing something or I am, but in either case you certainly haven't made a case that I can understand.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[AggieDave 6]

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Maybe so, but there was a slight issue with the interpretation at the 2008 Collegiates, which is why I think they tried to clarify.

Seriously? Well at swoop nationals last year, everyone was not eating or drinking water during the day for fear of coming in over the weight limit after a run and being disqualified. So after seeing the USPA meet director's ability to read the letter of the rule and understand the spirit of the rule, I can understand why there might be issue. Especially with something as clearly defined as the previous qualifications.

The ideas presented made sure that the competitors were dangerously dehydrated with low blood sugar at the meet. Good thing that competitive swooping doesn't take a large amount of concentration...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[lost_n_confuzd 0]

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So, either you're missing something or I am, but in either case you certainly haven't made a case that I can understand.

Look at it like this: there's many different types of clubs someone could join; People that like Anime, WOWsers, Lark or whatever that nonsense is called, HALO gatherings, dance teams, rifle matches, movie clubs, etc... the list goes on.

Why wouldn't there be a club for people that enjoy skydiving? Why wouldn't this club meet up on a regular basis to, I don't know, skydive? Skydiving can be a competetive sport; so why not have competitions between different schools or clubs?

http://www.collegeskydiving.com/

[skyjumpsteve 0]

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So, either you're missing something or I am, but in either case you certainly haven't made a case that I can understand.

You ever read the articles in Parachutist about the Collegiate Nationals and see all the smiling faces and happy people with excitement and joy and pride in competing? That is why they exist.

[quade 3]

You both seem to be completely missing the point.

Why is there a separate competition and it not just folded into the regular nationals?

Nothing would stop people from meeting at campuses. Nothing would prevent them from competing. The USPA and competitors would save time, money and effort.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[skyjumpsteve 0]

Nothing would prevent them competing but in reality very few would. Why would a 50 or 100 jump wonder show up at the Nationals and expect to fit in or have any realistic shot at competing even in the intermediate division? The Collegiate Nationals simply gives them a way to compete on a more friendly and level playing field. How would competitors save time and money? How many do you think compete in both? If they did the Collegiates just gives the younger jumpers another competition to gain skills and become better jumpers. Valid point about USPA $ though....

[MiataMan 0]

Interesting

I am a grad student however the majority of collegiate competitions exclude grad students from being on the teams that compete. Grad student can coach, help with logistics, fabrication, and financial support.

I can see how it does limit the number of competitors. However, insuring that only undergrads are on the competing team could lead to increased interest in the competition. Also, with collegiate competition there is a necessity to include the underclassmen. Without the inclusion of them the sport may not increase in size.

A man without a mustache is like a hamburger without a bun, Un-American.

[NiteQwill 0]

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Help me understand something I never have; why do the USPA Collegiate Nationals even exist?

I'm not just pissing in your corn flakes here. I really don't understand why they just aren't folded into the regular Nationals and play by the exact same rules.

The same reason the NBA, NFL, and collegiate sports teams exist...

No. I'm not buying it. Main stream college sport teams exist as a source of revenue. While there maybe the occasional professional skydiving team, they're restricted to the Open class and virtually everyone plays by the same rules.

So, either you're missing something or I am, but in either case you certainly haven't made a case that I can understand.

What I'm trying to say is that the playing field is NOT the same on different levels of the sport. I would not feel comfortable, as a 70 jump sophomore in college, competing against 1000 jump jumper at nationals. Hence, my correlation between collegiate sports and professional sports.

"Fail, fail again. Fail better."
-Samuel Beckett

[LemmingBoy 0]

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You both seem to be completely missing the point.

Why is there a separate competition and it not just folded into the regular nationals?

One of the best things about collegiates is that it is held over the Christmas/ New Years break when pretty much every school has off. The team I was on would have loved to go to the big USPA nationals, but as students, we couldn't just take a week off to travel and compete any time we felt like it. Most of us have to travel over the holidays anyway, so having a stop in AZ, or TX, didn't cost us nearly as much as making a separate trip out someplace else.

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Nothing would stop people from meeting at campuses. Nothing would prevent them from competing...

Time and money. Really, collegiates is about giving people who have no chance to fo to nationals an opportunity to compete.

[AggieDave 6]

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Why is there a separate competition and it not just folded into the regular nationals?

I don't know how long it has been since you were in college Paul, but nationals is typically in September/October, which is in the middle of a semester.

So make nationals in July, which would interfere with summer semesters or make nationals at the end of December. Either way, all of the "regular" jumpers would just about riot.

Why does it offend you so much to have a collegiate competition? I went twice, my wife went once, we both had a great time. We didn't place, but both were great epic college road trips. We both met some fun people, had some nice jumps and was all well worth the time, effort and money.

The people volunteering, judging and the likes were all very passionate and glad to be there. All in all they were great experiences that shows a very positive side to our sport.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kallend 1,623]

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You both seem to be completely missing the point.

Why is there a separate competition and it not just folded into the regular nationals?

Nothing would stop people from meeting at campuses. Nothing would prevent them from competing. The USPA and competitors would save time, money and effort.

For that matter, why not just fold the Rose Bowl into the NFL?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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I believe they changed the wording this year in order to 'clarify' the rule, but they ended up writing the rule wrong. The wording in the May 2008 edition of the Skydiver's Competition Manual read:

B. To be declared ineligible to compete, a competitor must have achieved all three of the following:
1. Be more than 24 years old at the time of the
meet
...

This year, the wording in the May 2009 edition was changed to:

B. To be declared ineligible to compete, a competitor
must have achieved all three of the following:
1. Be less than 25 years old at the time of the meet
...

This completely reverses the meaning of the age restriction, which I don't think was their intent. The goal was to clarify if the wording 'more than 24 years old' means a person who is 24 years old is eligible or not (technically, immediately after your 24th birthday, you are 'older' than 24).

...another thing they need to change.

There is no record of this change in the minutes from winter 08, summer 08, winter 09.
That change makes no sense.

How does this relate to the insertion of the word undergraduate in 2.Section 7-1.2A3a ???

What was the issue that came up at the 08 Collegiates?

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[decompresion 2]

#138
I was one of the grad students in Collegiates last year.
Came with 250 jumps, less than 3 years in the sport but more than 25 years old.
I am glad to have had the opportunity to compete before this rule change.
Thanks to the "VT B team"

There are no dangerous dives
Only dangerous divers

[Happick 0]

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I believe they changed the wording this year in order to 'clarify' the rule, but they ended up writing the rule wrong. The wording in the May 2008 edition of the Skydiver's Competition Manual read:

B. To be declared ineligible to compete, a competitor must have achieved all three of the following:
1. Be more than 24 years old at the time of the
meet
...

This year, the wording in the May 2009 edition was changed to:

B. To be declared ineligible to compete, a competitor
must have achieved all three of the following:
1. Be less than 25 years old at the time of the meet
...

This completely reverses the meaning of the age restriction, which I don't think was their intent. The goal was to clarify if the wording 'more than 24 years old' means a person who is 24 years old is eligible or not (technically, immediately after your 24th birthday, you are 'older' than 24).

...another thing they need to change.

There is no record of this change in the minutes from winter 08, summer 08, winter 09.
That change makes no sense.

How does this relate to the insertion of the word undergraduate in 2.Section 7-1.2A3a ???

What was the issue that came up at the 08 Collegiates?

I know the change doesn't make sense and I didn't see it in the minutes either, but I have both manuals and that was copied directly from them.

This doesn't have anything to do with the insertion of undergraduate, but people were discussing it so I thought I'd try to clear it up. The issue at the '08 collegiates was just that there was a competitor who was 24, had more than 1,000 jumps and more than 5 years in the sport. Some people thought that since he was technically over 24 years old, he was ineligible. After a short discussion they declared that he was eligible.

By the way, thanks for the advice on how to start an interim motion, we will definetely be doing that.

[tdog 0]

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Help me understand something I never have; why do the USPA Collegiate Nationals even exist?

Because Collegiates:

1) Occurs later in the year allowing a team to form and practice in the fall, whereas the Nationals is too close to the start of the school year.

2) Christmas break = time off from school, when it occurs.

3) Because, why the hell not? Nothing says students can't do both!

[quade 3]

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Why does it offend you so much to have a collegiate competition?

Not offended at all. Just trying to understand it and why it really exists.

See more detail in my next reply.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 3]

So let me preface this AGAIN by saying I'm not against them, I just want to understand them better and figure out why they exist.

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Help me understand something I never have; why do the USPA Collegiate Nationals even exist?

Because Collegiates:

1) Occurs later in the year allowing a team to form and practice in the fall, whereas the Nationals is too close to the start of the school year.

Makes a bit of sense.

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2) Christmas break = time off from school, when it occurs.

Also makes a small bit of sense, but could be argued it also makes it unlikely that people will attend since it does take time away from family. To be honest, there is never a good time for everyone.

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3) Because, why the hell not? Nothing says students can't do both!

Actually, at the lower classes, that's not the case and it's beginning to bug me.

The jump and licensing requirements are different for Collegiates and I can't for the life of me figure out why.

One would assume the reason the Nationals requirements are the way they are is for safety purposes. That a person probably should have a certain level of experience and competency in basic skydiving before taking their focus away and competing.

If so, then why are the Collegiate requirements lower?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[steve1 5]

I don't know a whole lot about this issue. It seems like the Air Force Academy has a huge advantage in these competitions. If anyone is excluded it should be them, (in my opinion). With all their free jumps and financial backing, how can that be fair!

In 73 or so we kicked the Air Forces Academy's rear in competition at Boise, Idaho. Most of these cadets thought they were too good to even talk to my long haired team-mates. Most of these cadets come from families of privilege, and most are connected even to get into the Academy. It felt great to beat them at R.W. (in ten-way competition).

[ozzy13 0]

165

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[Krip 2]

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I don't know a whole lot about this issue. It seems like the Air Force Academy has a huge advantage in these competitions. If anyone is excluded it should be them, (in my opinion). With all their free jumps and financial backing, how can that be fair!

Fair let the Academy's compete in their own class

BTW If

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This doesn't have anything to do with the insertion of undergraduate, but people were discussing it so I thought I'd try to clear it up. The issue at the '08 collegiates was just that there was a competitor who was 24, had more than 1,000 jumps and more than 5 years in the sport. Some people thought that since he was technically over 24 years old, he was ineligible. After a short discussion they declared that he was eligible.

If this is true

This requirement or the undergraduate student requirement could prevent some of the a vets going to school on the G.I. bill from competing.

One Jump Wonder

[LyraM45 0]

ARE YOU FRICKIN' KIDDING ME????!!!!!!!! LIKE... SERIOUSLY????


Ugh!!! I am so pissed off right now because I had just sorted this all out with them last year when I decided to go back for my masters and wanted to compete again. God dammit.


Done.. finito. Petition signed!!!

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[LyraM45 0]

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So a college senior has at most 4 years of skydiving experience. OTOH someone in the 6th year of a PhD program may have 10 years of skydiving experience. And in this sport experience definitely matters. Doesn't that give the grad student a HUGE (and perhaps unfair) advantage over the undergrad?

Not really... they group the jumpers by jump numbers, not years of experience. I think 125 jumps and under was novice, and 125-300 (I can't remember what the upper tier number was for this one) was intermediate, etc. And then I think there is a clause all together that if you have over 1000 skydives or something you're ineligable, and your first jump couldn't be more than five years previous or something. Not 100% sure, but I know its done fair enough to where I didn't feel like I was at a disadvantage competing with 126 skydives in 2006 when I was an undergrad.

Take me for example... time is not always experience. My first tandem was in Oct. 2001, and I am only up to 180 jumps now because of the time I took off from the sport here and there while I was in college and couldn't afford to jump. Just getting back into it now, but back then even though I had a few years experience more than other people, I had no tunnel time to help me out, so I had the raw limited jump numbers over a longer period of time. Def. did not put me at an advantage.

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)