Re: [billvon] Fatality and skydive dallas

[CPTSkydive 0]

As a relative newbie with only 3 years in the sport and just over 350 jumps I have a question about my RSL (which is still installed on my rig) and the 1-2 quick cut and pull technique. I am IN NO WAY second guessing the decisions made by this jumper during his malfunction as I was not there, in his rig, faced with the same situation. I need a sanity check on my thought process from some of you that have been doing this for many years with thousands of jumps.
I have deployed my reserve due to a pilot chute in tow mal and my biggest concern as I pulled that reserve handle is that the reserve pilot chute would get hung up I the pilot chute in tow. I have never had a cutaway main followed by reserve deployment. I have heard all of the arguments for and against an RSL. This is the third time I have heard of a main riser not clearing the rig after cutaway and the reserve wrapping around the main leading a failure of either chute to fully inflate. I like to think myself situationally aware person (and having been trained and to be so under stressful environments and experienced those environments). In this situation, assuming an AAD is in use, and altitude allows (I habitually pull above 4,000 ft.) it seems to me that locating your reserve handle, cutting away, checking over your shoulder to make sure your main is clear and both risers have released (if not making sure cutaway handle and cables are completely clear and, releasing with hand(s) or knife if necessary/possible), then going for the reserve, is a good course of action. I remember being taught: Locate the reserve handle, cutaway, arch, pull. This sequence is not a quick “1-2 pull” but that is all I have been practicing in the plane and on the ground and all I really see others practicing. I think it is time to ditch the RSL on my rig and begin a different practice procedure for cutaway/reserve deployment. Feed me back please! Thanks TJ

[billvon 2,396]

>This sequence is not a quick “1-2 pull” but that is all I have been
> practicing in the plane and on the ground and all I really see others
> practicing.

That is an astute observation - what we practice is what we will do. If you practice pull-pull then you will do that in the air no matter what the situation. That's one reason we teach students to do two-hands-per-handle; if their hand falls off the cutaway pad due to a hard cutaway, they will keep trying to pull it to complete the trained procedure. They won't just pull the reserve handle with their right hand, as they might if they practiced pull-pull.

>I think it is time to ditch the RSL on my rig and begin a different
>practice procedure for cutaway/reserve deployment. Feed me back please!

I recommend not getting rid of your RSL until you at least have a few cutaways; that will give you a better feel for what sorts of timings you can see. In the end it's your decision of course. If you are worried about the possibility of opening your reserve before you have cut away both risers, then changing to two-hands-per-handle may help you there. If you are more worried about a gear failure that causes the RSL side riser to release first, a Collins lanyard may be the answer (or eventual removal of the RSL, although I don't recomend that.)

[bob.dino 0]

My EPs are "pull cutaway - check right riser - check left riser - pull reserve". About once a day I'll practice responding to a riser hang-up.

[Deuce 1]

The RSL is really important. Most of my jumps, lately, (tandem jumps) I have an RSL.

If they are good enough for my tandem passengers/students, they are good enough for you.

That said, I have never had a tandem cutaway (I'm overdue) but I have had 4 sport cutaways, none with RSL's.

It is just amazing how I've gotten used to the chop/deploy sequence. On my first one I essentially did a canopy transfer, and I was terrified. On my most recent one, at Holiday Boogie, I was wondering if I could get away without letting anybody know how I screwed up.

They get lots easier as you do them. The challenge then is to make sure you don't take the sequence for granted.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I recommend not getting rid of your RSL until you at least have a few cutaways; that will give you a better feel for what sorts of timings you can see.

What about for CRW or camera jumps? You're not suggesting RSLs be used ALL the time are you?

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[phoenixlpr 0]

Hmm. Call me lucky! I had the main hanging on the RSL after cutting away from a fast malfunction. It has happened twice. I never jump that rig again. BTW I don`t have RSL installed on my own rig. It was not my decision, it was my rigger`s.

[skybytch 259]

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What about for CRW or camera jumps? You're not suggesting RSLs be used ALL the time are you?

Getting rid of the RSL is different from unhooking it for certain skydives.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Getting rid of the RSL is different from unhooking it for certain skydives.

True. But there is a school of thought that believes it better to jump without an RSL all the time, instead of constantly connecting and disconnecting on a jump by jump basis. It's not always in a jumpers best interest to have an RSL connected. I'm not sure cutaway experience is the best criteria. Like everything else in skydiving, there are many factors that need to be considered regarding RSL use before an informed decision can be made.

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[billvon 2,396]

>It's not always in a jumpers best interest to have an RSL connected.

I believe that for most newer skydivers, it is in their best interest to have their RSL connected. They have saved far more people than they have caused problems for. Once a jumper has enough experience/a few cutaways under their belt they will be in a better position to evaluate whether they want to keep their RSL.

[skybytch 259]

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I'm not sure cutaway experience is the best criteria.

Why not? I'm still waiting for my beer cutaway. Didn't install the RSL on my rig until a couple of years ago. Primary reason I put it on is that I haven't cutaway yet so I don't know for sure how I'll react. Secondary reason is in case I find myself needing to cutaway below my decision altitude; RSL's can be lifesavers when you're down and dirty.

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Like everything else in skydiving, there are many factors that need to be considered regarding RSL use before an informed decision can be made.

True. But if you aren't jumping camera, doing CRW or jumping a highly loaded main I can't think of one good reason to not have it hooked up.

Sure, there are situations where it might make things worse but that can be said for AAD's too.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Why not?

Because, as you pointed out, some jumpers go a very long time before their first cutaway. Often those jumpers will expose themselves to situations where connecting an RSL would not be the wisest decision.

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RSL's can be lifesavers when you're down and dirty.

Yes they can.

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True. But if you aren't jumping camera, doing CRW or jumping a highly loaded main I can't think of one good reason to not have it hooked up.

Sure, there are situations where it might make things worse but that can be said for AAD's too.

I agree, but might add skysurfing to the list. In most situations, there is no reason not to use an RSL. My point is that jumpers should know about the RSL, know what it does and how it does it, so that they uderstand why its usually best to have an RSL, but sometimes it isn't.

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[avgjoe 0]

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In most situations, there is no reason not to use an RSL. My point is that jumpers should know about the RSL, know what it does and how it does it, so that they uderstand why its usually best to have an RSL, but sometimes it isn't.

Jumpers should know about all there gear and it's limitations not just the rsl.

[CPTSkydive 0]

Thanks to all for your replies. I will continue to monitor for more information but for now I believe I will take Billvon's advise and stay hooked to the RSL and be aware when after successful deployment of the main when it might be a good idea to pull the quick release (as I have been taught). One question though. Will a partially cut away main with one riser not released (especially the non RSL side) cause the RSL to pull the reserve out of the container. God, I think I am going to take a riggers class just for the safety exercise! Thanks again to all! TJ

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I believe that for most newer skydivers, it is in their best interest to have their RSL connected. They have saved far more people than they have caused problems for. Once a jumper has enough experience/a few cutaways under their belt they will be in a better position to evaluate whether they want to keep their RSL.

I agree, especially with respect to new jumpers.

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[tso-d_chris 0]

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One question though. Will a partially cut away main with one riser not released (especially the non RSL side) cause the RSL to pull the reserve out of the container.

If the RSL side riser releases, it activates the RSL (assuming it is connected), which initiates reserve deployment.

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[billvon 2,396]

>Will a partially cut away main with one riser not released (especially
> the non RSL side) cause the RSL to pull the reserve out of the
> container.

Under normal circumstances, if the non-RSL riser releases, the RSL will not cause deployment of the reserve. If the RSL side releases, it will cause deployment of the reserve. The Racer RSL can prevent this issue but can cause other problems. RSL's with collins lanyards also avoid this problem by cutting away the other side as previously discussed. Note that on RSL rigs the risers are trimmed so the non-RSL side releases first.

[CPTSkydive 0]

Please excuse my ignorance but can you give further information on a Collins system? Is that a Skyhook? Sorry if I missed it in another thread

[mnealtx 0]

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Please excuse my ignorance but can you give further information on a Collins system? Is that a Skyhook? Sorry if I missed it in another thread

Collins lanyard post

The Skyhook RSL system includes a Collins lanyard, but is not solely a Collins lanyard. More info, here.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[murps2000 86]

Secondary reason is in case I find myself needing to cutaway below my decision altitude; RSL's can be lifesavers when you're down and dirty.***


Do you vary your hard deck based on whether or not your RSL is hooked up?

[skybytch 259]

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Do you vary your hard deck based on whether or not your RSL is hooked up?

No. Decision altitude is decision altitude.

For me the RSL is just like the AAD - it's there in case I screw up; whether it's hooked up or not doesn't change how I skydive.

[Paige 0]

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I agree, especially with respect to new jumpers.

i think it is a lesson that EVERYONE should take to heart. Good care for you gear can save you from problems and/or save your life.

Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com

[tso-d_chris 0]

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i think it is a lesson that EVERYONE should take to heart. Good care for you gear can save you from problems and/or save your life.

Absolutely true. I hope I did not give anyone the impression that only certain jumpers should care for their gear. Certainly not what I was trying to say.

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[Paige 0]

I figured that wasn't what you were saying. I was just agreeing and adding a little something extra. I just put it in all caps so everyone would see. From having so many rigger friends, I hear all the stories. I think its something everyone could use a little reminding on.

Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com

[Frenchy68 0]

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Secondary reason is in case I find myself needing to cutaway below my decision altitude; RSL's can be lifesavers when you're down and dirty.

There's a video somewhere on this site of someone tearing through someone else's canopy at approximately 700ft AGL. Ripped the canopy to shreads, which resulted in a low cutaway. Although the odds of this happening are hopefully minimal, it's one of the reason why I do not disconnect my RSL until I'm on the ground (if need be).

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Scrumpot 1]

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...when after successful deployment of the main when it might be a good idea to pull the quick release (as I have been taught).

Please clarify this for me. ...When do you think that this is? After every "successful" main deployment? Only "SOME"? ...And Why?

I'd like to know what your thought process is on this statement before we delve into it and consider it a little more. I'm surprised that nobody else has yet remarked on this statement. Maybe it is me who just misunderstands what it is though you are meaning?

So if you could please clarify for me on that, before I say any more, I'd appreciate it! ...Are you saying that once your main deploys, you are then pulling the quick release, and disconnecting your RSL?

-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone