Has basic skydiving become an obstacle?

[Tuna-Salad 0]

More and more I see people who want to jump wingsuits and cameras or do this and that but most of them want to get there without learning to skydive first.

So I ask.. has basic skydiving become nothing more than an obstacle to get out of the way before the "Real" fun starts? I see people learning to free fly almost out of AFF...
all skydives end on the belly so I feel time should be devoted to that to guaratee stable and consistent pulls.

Just seems anymore that getting basic flying skills are a bump in the road to greater things. How sad is it that falling out of the sky with a spectacular view is so under appreciated? Shouldn't that be enough?

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

I don't think so.

I think it's kind of like the "good" teenagers. You never hear about them because they don't do anything notorious.

You see tons of threads about fast downsizing, wingsuiting, camera, ect.
As in: "But why can't I do this NOW?" and [whine] "But I WANNA!!![/whine]

The smart, sensible folk aren't going to start a thread to brag about taking 100 jumps (or more) to sort out their belly skills before moving on to freefly or how many jumps they took to get through Billvon's entire downsizing checklist.

They also are probably working with local coaches and instructors and don't need or want to have to sort through all the crap on here to get the one or two good pieces of advice (or they search around to find where the question has already been asked).

FWIW I'm just starting to fly a camera. I've gotten invaluable info from the camera forums, but haven't commented there much yet because I'm still absorbing as much as I can (and have a local mentor to get direct instruction from).

Just my $0.02

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[feuergnom 22]

ok. i'll bite

first: dizzie.dot is just a small (although very loud) community in the internet - don't take the loudmouths and all the wannabe's as the general norm. many people i know don't even bother to have a look in here, because valuable questions and infos get lostin all the noise in here which bugs me most of the time. (sometimes there are discussions worth posting to but many times i refrain from hitting the replybutton)

i think that all the people in here being in a rush represent maybe 10% of the whole skydivin community - and that would be the amount of people you know personally on your dz who are in a unhealthy hurry to get things done

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[airtwardo 6]

+1

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Andy9o8 0]

I think there's been a bit of an overreaction to the other thread where someone asked how to quickly and cheaply "rack up 200 jumps so he can learn to wingsuit." In his defense, while he may have been speaking out of impatience, he was also speaking out of basic layman's ignorance: he is a whuffo, who has never had a FJC or made a jump, and still knows next to nothing about skydiving or wingsuiting. In other words, what seemed to us as impatience might have been just a good dose of eagerness. Once things are explained to him, and he has a FJC and a few "basic" jumps under his belt, he may very well be willing to be more cautious than we gave him credit for.

You know, sometimes certain things that are considered "highly advanced" in one era are considered "typical" in the next era. A couple imperfect examples:
(1)there was a time when it was almost unheard of for a student aircraft pilot to fly a jet-powered aircraft until he'd first learned the basics on a prop-driven craft. That's no longer necessarily the case today, especially in the military.
(2)Back in the 70's, all student jumpers had to jump mil-surp cheapos until they had at least an A license, then they graduated to Parcommander-class canopies, then they had to have around 100 jumps before they'd be allowed to graduate to a square canopy. Today, of course, virtually all civilian students learn exclusively on ram-airs.
(3)Today, it's not unusual for a recent AFF grad to jump on a 4-way or larger formation with less than 20 jumps. Virtually unheard of 30 years ago.

But all those aspects of the sport have evolved. What was "advanced" in yesteryear is considered "basic skydiving" today.

Now, analogies are always imperfect, and since I don't wingsuit I'm not qualified to say what is or is not necessarily required before a student wingsuiter can make his first wingsuit jump. But it may very well be that what is considered to be a minimum requirement in wingsuiting today just might not be viewed that way 10 or 20 years from now, after the sport has evolved some more.

[squirrelgirl 0]

From the small pool of beginners and students still in AFF at my DZ, I'd say no. Nobody there appears to be in a rush to get anywhere but more experienced. I think everyone has a different long term goal, but for now it seems that we're content to learn something new and work steadily toward that first license.

I remember so many people telling me that my first solo might be "boring." And while I like having someone with me, it couldn't have been farther from dull. I hope jumping out of planes doesn't get "boring" anytime soon because I have no idea what hobby I'd pick up from there.

[jumpwally 0]

I would say that your .02 cents are spot on,,,i would also say that 97% of skydivers do not post or get involved on here......

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[grimmie 173]

...and 3% of skydivers give the other 97% a bad name!

[davelepka 4]

I would say no. Everytime you hear a guy say he 'really just wants to BASE jump' or is really just jumping so he can 'become a skysurfer' (this isn't a new phenomenon) it's always a guy with between 0 and 1 jump, usually closer to 0.

It's the classic 'mall ninja'. The suburban guy who thinks he's a badass because he's got a 'tactical folder' pocket knife, and an opinion on the best semi-auto hangun for close quarters combat. Just douchebags posing as their favorite super hero, just like the 'BASE jumpers' in training.

The other side of this is the guy with 100 jumps who prefers the 'flight characteristics of HMA over vectran' and has already plotted out his downsizing progression through a 79 Velo. Because they have 100 jumps, and some idea of what they're talking about, I classify them as less of a 'mall ninja' and more of a shithead.

I think a good majority of jumpers are appropriately impressed with and terrified of regular skydiving enough to keep on the right track.

[Chubba 0]

I can only speak for myself...

I started freeflying straight out of AFF and I'm counting down the jumps till I buy my wingsuit.

That's what you get on small C182 dropzones, with AFF's running all day you might only get to launch 1 x 4 way on a weekend, the rest are 2-ways or solo's.

Belly flying by yourself absolutely sucks... messing around learning to sit though is pretty fun and I bet solo WS flights would be a ball too.

I'll take up any RW dive that appears, but unlike some of your big turbine DZ's, we don't have the option avaliable 24/7.

[Will_Evo 0]

Quote

More and more I see people who want to jump wingsuits and cameras or do this and that but most of them want to get there without learning to skydive first.

So I ask.. has basic skydiving become nothing more than an obstacle to get out of the way before the "Real" fun starts? I see people learning to free fly almost out of AFF...
all skydives end on the belly so I feel time should be devoted to that to guaratee stable and consistent pulls.

Just seems anymore that getting basic flying skills are a bump in the road to greater things. How sad is it that falling out of the sky with a spectacular view is so under appreciated? Shouldn't that be enough?

So your saying progression is a bad thing? So what if someone's ultimate goal is to wingsuit or base jump, as long as they get to that goal safely it shouldn't matter. The fact is, during those 200 or whatever the number is to get to their goal, they are undoubtedly going to be learning, pulling stable, and developing belly skills, its just bound to happen. The old saying "practice makes perfect" comes to mind.

Granted, because I am low jump number, nothing I say here is taken seriously, but I feel like alot of common sense is being left out in a ton of these threads and things are being over analyzed.

-Evo

Zoo Crew

[billvon 2,384]

>Belly flying by yourself absolutely sucks... messing around learning to sit
>though is pretty fun and I bet solo WS flights would be a ball too.

It is until you get bored with it. And if you're the kind of guy who gets bored with 2 way belly flight quickly you'll probably get bored with solo and 2 way freefly/wingsuiting just as quickly.

[Joellercoaster 6]

Quote

In other words, what seemed to us as impatience might have been just a good dose of eagerness.

Very well said

Even crammed into a month, doing 200 jumps will be an eye-opener. You don't know what you don't know.

Definitely time for a bit more "easy, tiger!" and a bit less "you fool!"

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[Tuna-Salad 0]

Quote

Quote

More and more I see people who want to jump wingsuits and cameras or do this and that but most of them want to get there without learning to skydive first.

So I ask.. has basic skydiving become nothing more than an obstacle to get out of the way before the "Real" fun starts? I see people learning to free fly almost out of AFF...
all skydives end on the belly so I feel time should be devoted to that to guaratee stable and consistent pulls.

Just seems anymore that getting basic flying skills are a bump in the road to greater things. How sad is it that falling out of the sky with a spectacular view is so under appreciated? Shouldn't that be enough?

So your saying progression is a bad thing? So what if someone's ultimate goal is to wingsuit or base jump, as long as they get to that goal safely it shouldn't matter. The fact is, during those 200 or whatever the number is to get to their goal, they are undoubtedly going to be learning, pulling stable, and developing belly skills, its just bound to happen. The old saying "practice makes perfect" comes to mind.

Granted, because I am low jump number, nothing I say here is taken seriously, but I feel like alot of common sense is being left out in a ton of these threads and things are being over analyzed.

-Evo

There is absolutely nothing wrong with progression. At times it appears that some people are looking to the peak of the mountain instead of the first step to begin the climb though. Nothing wrong with wingsuits or whatever your discipline is at all.. just that I get the impression some people have an attitude of "well if i can't fly a wingsuit some day then skydiving just isn't worth it" .. or same with a camera or whatever.

I'm not picking on anyone here, I'm just making a comment on the rapid downsizing and what has become a trend of progressing too fast. Probably a poor observation on my part.. I'm good at those.

This is coming from a guy with almost 170 jumps that has not taken part in more than an 8 way because as it is 8 is plenty to keep track of. What I say comes as a grain of salt and has about the same worth.

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[Will_Evo 0]

What I am saying is you are over analyzing this. There is a requirement to do wingsuiting for a reason, 200 jumps. From what you are saying, the person in question is going to fork over 20 dollars per jump, do nothing in freefall by himself, and land his canopy, then repeat 200 times. People are going to enjoy their jumps, all 200 of them, participate in group jumps, etc.. because its fun, it is worth the money.

So no I don't think basic skydiving is an obstacle for anyone. It just seems like your over analyzing a situation, and creating a concern out of nothing. Just like someone said, usually the people saying they want to do get into wingsuiting or whatever have 0-1 jump(s). Just because they are eager to try something, doesn't mean they are going to waste the 200 jumps before that goal. As long as the requirements are being held steady and not wavering, all will work out.

-Evo

Zoo Crew

[tetra316 0]

Quote

What I am saying is you are over analyzing this. There is a requirement to do wingsuiting for a reason, 200 jumps. From what you are saying, the person in question is going to fork over 20 dollars per jump, do nothing in freefall by himself, and land his canopy, then repeat 200 times. People are going to enjoy their jumps, all 200 of them, participate in group jumps, etc.. because its fun, it is worth the money.

So no I don't think basic skydiving is an obstacle for anyone. It just seems like your over analyzing a situation, and creating a concern out of nothing. Just like someone said, usually the people saying they want to do get into wingsuiting or whatever have 0-1 jump(s). Just because they are eager to try something, doesn't mean they are going to waste the 200 jumps before that goal. As long as the requirements are being held steady and not wavering, all will work out.

-Evo

I disagree. I've known a few people who have racked up 300 or more hop & pops just for sake of jump numbers so they could get a tandem rating. Some have also used the date of their first tandem as a starting point for time in sport. So you could end up with someone who has been skydiving less than a year, with 500 jumps becoming a tandem master. Perfectly legal but definitely not wise.

[camero 0]

"You don't know what you don't know."


Thats hilarious

[DSE 3]

Quote

More and more I see people who want to jump wingsuits and cameras or do this and that but most of them want to get there without learning to skydive first.

So I ask.. has basic skydiving become nothing more than an obstacle to get out of the way before the "Real" fun starts? I see people learning to free fly almost out of AFF...
all skydives end on the belly so I feel time should be devoted to that to guaratee stable and consistent pulls.

Just seems anymore that getting basic flying skills are a bump in the road to greater things. How sad is it that falling out of the sky with a spectacular view is so under appreciated? Shouldn't that be enough?

Didn't we sorta have this discussion just before/at Sebastian?

If getting to a goal is all that matters, yes..."basic skydiving skills" have become an obstacle. There will be "that guy" that will go do a number of hop n' pops just to get to 200 so he can wingsuit or wear a camera. I had a goal of hitting 500 jumps in my first year by my birthday, so I ended up doing 42 H n' P's to make that goal.
It used to be that jump numbers were an indication of basic skill/experience. Today, it means nothing. You have tunnel rats with 50 skydives that are amazing in the air and terrible under canopy, and you have people with 1000 skydives that can't form a 4 way round. People lie about jump numbers anyway.

[thekgb2k1 0]

I am a newcomer to the sport. just 1 IAD jump under my belt. Looking forward to getting my 2nd. I feel lost when I see posts about rushing to 200 jumps and feeling boared. I don't get it. I jumped once and it was the single most amazing moment of my life. Having said that I a 82nd vet with 80+ SL jumps. Each jump (at least to me) is a drug i cant resist. My goal is to fly a wingsuit...maybe to hop N pop from 10k...I love canopy flight...the journy to the goal is it's own reward

...always remember when jumping a round...at 100' slip into the wind...keep your feet and knees together...pray to god...and hit all 3 points of contact...FEET, A**, HEAD

[half-a-greek 0]

Everyone has goals in life. There not a bad thing to have.. encouraged even, lol.

When it comes to goals in skydiving, there are cliques. I am old fashioned when it comes to my thinking despite my young age (19), I believe that you must start at the bottom and work your way up. I can't wait to sit fly, or fly a wing suit, or learn how to swoop on a canopy that's loaded at over 2:1, but all of that will come in good time. At this point in my life I want to learn how to be a safe and skillful skydiver on my belly, and that's it.

It is tempting at times to say fuck belly flying... especially when i struggle with it, and move to something else. However the sky isn't going anywhere, and as long as I'm safe in the sky, neither am I. I am sick and tired of people trying to get me to free fly, trying to pressure me into moving past my comfort zone. One day my persistence to stay on my belly will pay off when a big way rolls around and I can out fly the free flier with twice as many jumps as me...

[Will_Evo 0]

Noone is saying your bad for staying on your belly. What I am saying is quit undermining people who's goal is to get to something else, and making it seem like their first 200-500 jumps are going to be useless. I personally do everything I can within my limits right now, Ive done freefly, up to 8 way RW, CReW docking and downplane, and a few for fun jumps. I am still learning doing this, I am still gaining invaluable experience, just because I am not staying on my belly doesn't mean I am wasting my jumps

Someone here said they knew someone who did 200 hop n pops to get to 500 so they could do tandem. Ok and? They still have 300 normal jumps, and in this case, if he/she passes the tandem proficiency requirements, then they is qualified for the job, end of story. Find me one person who did 500 hop n pops and then got their tandem rating. Find me one person who did 200 hop n pops and got their coach rating. Your taking things to an extreme here. Hop off the high horse.

-Evo

Zoo Crew

[suzyellow 0]

But us kids watch Travis Pastrana BASE, and jump without a parachute and video jump.... we wanna be just like him!!!!!!!!!!! I just bought a rawa and jump a video camera. 200 jumps is recommended not required. I know my emergancy procedures.

Love Life

[antonija 0]

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Find me one person who did 500 hop n pops and then got their tandem rating.

You'd think this couldn't happen, right? That at least instructor for tandem instructors would have enough sense to say that hop-n-poper to F off and get some full alti jumps before becoming TI?
Well the only thing written is the number of jumps. And I do know a guy who had about 1000 jumps (its twice as much as 500 but bear with me) but he was an accuracy jumper. So that 1k hop-n-pops and TI license.

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne

[bullin82 0]

Quote

ok. i'll bite

first: dizzie.dot is just a small (although very loud) community in the internet - don't take the loudmouths and all the wannabe's as the general norm. many people i know don't even bother to have a look in here, because valuable questions and infos get lostin all the noise in here which bugs me most of the time. (sometimes there are discussions worth posting to but many times i refrain from hitting the replybutton)

i think that all the people in here being in a rush represent maybe 10% of the whole skydivin community - and that would be the amount of people you know personally on your dz who are in a unhealthy hurry to get things done

New guy here....im going to have to agree here cause from what i have seen there are posts that show that there is people that are viewing standard skydiving as a bump to what they want to do ie:freefly, wingsuit whatever. but as i have seen for the most part all the good discusions go un-noticed because the once that ask for a "fast way" to something else catch the attention (which they should) of the experts. thankfully the experienced peeps here are whilling to get on those "fast way" posts and advise people of the risks before they get hurt or hurt someone else.

i know as myself i know im only a student and i have alot of time for belly down, but even after AFF is complete i am in no hurry to start freeflying, wingsuiting or anything until i get more experience with my belly. i do admit i would like to learn how to fly with cam but i will definetly go slow and learn from better peoples teachings way before i try myself.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Quote

Noone is saying your bad for staying on your belly. What I am saying is quit undermining people who's goal is to get to something else, and making it seem like their first 200-500 jumps are going to be useless. I personally do everything I can within my limits right now, Ive done freefly, up to 8 way RW, CReW docking and downplane, and a few for fun jumps. I am still learning doing this, I am still gaining invaluable experience, just because I am not staying on my belly doesn't mean I am wasting my jumps

-Evo

I don't disagree with you or think you are wrong.
I think that by stretching out and doing different disciplines you are on your way to being a "well rounded" jumper.

The ones I am scared of (and for) are the ones who think getting a solid foundation on the fundamentals is a waste of jumps.

Like the ones trying to swoop without knowing exactly where the stall point on their canopy is.

Like the ones who want to wingsuit, but don't have any interest in learning how to track.

Or the two guys I heard about 2nd hand recently.
A friend of mine overheard them discussing how to transition out of head down. "Why not just flip into a sit?" he asked. "Oh, we don't know how to sit fly, we just do head down".

Some of these folks don't seem to realize trying to run before you can walk sets you up for one hell of a crash.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo