New jumpers at your DZ

[Baksteen 84]

One of the issues raised in the "AFF experiment" thread in "Instructors" was that the student retention rate is nowhere near as high as it should be.

I tried to ask a question about that in there, but it got kinda lost in the discussion which progression is superior.

This thread is NOT meant to become yet another "SL vs Tandem vs AFF" argument.

What I want to know is simply:

1) What does your DZ do to keep students/novices/newly licenced jumpers coming back?

2) How does your DZ make new/inexperienced jumpers feel at home and/or part of the group?

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[ladydyver 0]

Student retention is definitely down..... I don't know if it is the economy or if there are other issues that are there. For the students Doc and I try to talk with them and get them excited about jumping....doc can do coach jumps but I don't have my rating as of yet. Once they get their A I jump with everybody. I try to include everyone in drill dives that I have learned so that they can increase their skill set.
For jumpers coming to visit or who are new to our dz we try to bring them into the fold. we are a pretty small dz so we all kind of hang out together anyway. lots of bonfires to hang around and chat and drink lots of beverages of choice.

DPH # 2
"I am not sure what you are suppose to do with that, but I don't think it is suppose to flop around like that." ~Skootz~
I have a strong regard for the rules.......doc!

[virgin-burner 1]

i've wondered about that same question a couple of times already; maybe for different reasons tough..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[feuergnom 22]

in classic AFF there is a huge gap you drop in after you passed your levels. and i remember pretty well how bored/frustrated i was once i got to jump without instructors and after i got my license.
i see the same with jumpers from other dz's coming to our place. so what do we/do I do to pas sthat obstacle? We've implemented three coach-jumps in our student programm the students can book more if they want to - and most of them do and they enjoy learning the basics of RW. recently four of our club got their coach-rating, so we have more staff, which also helps a lot

so far the biggest problem seems to be wintertime. students finish in fall, take the break and never show up again in spring

my guess is that it is the mindset. there's tons of "cool video" on the net, but to be able to do all the "cool" stuff (or get anywhere near it) you have to dedicate time - and that seems way harder than to get the money needed for jumping

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[rivetgeek 0]

As a low-time jumper, I can say easily that my home DZ (elsinore) will keep me coming back if nothing else for the kick-ass parties :D

~Bones Knit, blood clots, glory is forever, and chicks dig scars.~

[Chubba 0]

AFF stage 1's, the majority of us put on a fake show, they come and go sooo quickly the first time jumpers.

Anything pass stage 1, you're a part of the DZ.

Once you have your own gear, you're part of the family.

[virgin-burner 1]

sometimes not even that is enough.. besides spending most your weekends there, trying to help out, be nice with people and welcoming others..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[feuergnom 22]

Quote

As a low-time jumper, I can say easily that my home DZ (elsinore) will keep me coming back if nothing else for the kick-ass parties :D

*grumpymode*

yeah, that's what it's all about - parties and getting laid

*grumpymode off*

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[virgin-burner 1]

Quote

Quote

As a low-time jumper, I can say easily that my home DZ (elsinore) will keep me coming back if nothing else for the kick-ass parties :D

*grumpymode*

yeah, that's what it's all about - parties and getting laid

*grumpymode off*

its NOT!?!?!?

boy, was i wrong..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[bluepill 0]

I think the issue for most jumpers just off of student status is that they dont have many options to jump with other people. Yes of course they can get coached jumps. But that is part of progressing and not every jump can be a coached.

Choosing to skydive is a very individual thing. Not many people have existing friends who also come in to skydiving.
You generally come to the DZ alone and to a newbie the DZ can seem full of skygods and cool established characters. And this group can can appear to be pretty tough to break in to to make friends and find people to FUN jump with.

You could say that the bottom line is you have to get off your own ass and make friends. But the DZ crowd can be harsh and intimidating to some.

At my DZ I try to talk and be open to talk to anyone.

I think maybe if DZ's offered or promoted buddy up opportunitites it would help. What I mean by that is provide a list of people who are happy to jump with others including just off student status jumpers. It can be sooooo boring jumping on your own.

BP

[pirana 0]

I'm just right up front and tell them to make themselves available by getting to the DZ at least once per week, and accepting that there are those that will jump with them and those that will not. Worst that can happen is someone will say no.

The more they show up, the more people get familiar with them, the more people see they are making an effort to learn, the more they will get invited on jumps. But I also make sure they do not take it wrong when someone says no. When the experienced jumpers want to crank out some points with people at a similar level; just accept that.

Most importantly, be open to learning and sincerely be in that mode. I'm really wary of new people that nod and keep saying "yep" but aren't really listening. Stick around a bit after the jumping; listen and learn. It's very obvious who is really trying to soak up the knowledge and improve their skills and who is in that mad-skills-with-100-jumps-and-I-already-know-everything mode.

Persevere; soon enough you will be the one paying it back and trying to keep the next generation of new jumpers from drifting away. (General advice - not aimed at "you").

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[piisfish 135]

Quote

1) What does your DZ do to keep students/novices/newly licenced jumpers coming back?

2) How does your DZ make new/inexperienced jumpers feel at home and/or part of the group?

1) we provide them all kind of coaching for free (actually we printout Virgin-Burner's posts for WS flying, Sangi's posts for BASE etc etc)

2)we bake them cakes and offer them our wives.

seriously... we always have quite a lot of beer in the fridge, and it's free... The deal is, every once in a while, just put some full bottles in the fridge.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[virgin-burner 1]

now, THAT might be a successful approach!

and i'm mentioned with Sangi in the same sentence, i get an all warm and fuzzy feeling now..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[freeflyit 0]

>>Choosing to skydive is a very individual thing<<

I agree with you there. In my oppinion, you can't make somebody like something. And that's part of the beauty of this sport is that there are few, the select few that fight to stay in the sport regardless of lifestyle, obsticles, etc... Just with anything else, you have to want it bad enough.

I don't know about you, but there's nowhere else I'd rather be than in the plane at 12g's, on top of the world, just you and a select few, living the dream.

In my experience, you have to give up a lot to stick around, what are you going to do?, give people your stuff to make it easier for them to stay?

[Draggyn 0]

Good morning all, I think this could fall into this category ? Move it if you feel it should be elsewhere.

So reading a few threads here got me wondering ? Sometimes this is a good thing sometimes not. SO I will ask away.
I have been lurking in the shadows here on DZ and finally registered. Have had some great responses to a couple questions related to gear and locations. In reading this thread and others makes me wonder ? I have been thinking about visiting some local dz's near me to kind of check them over, get a feel for things and such but not sure how a currently nondiver would be welcomed ? Now mind you I am not one that is going to show up and soak up all the beer, not my style so no worries about having an empty fridge when I leave, LOL.. Rather it is a concern that being a n00b, definitley interested in getting into the sport, that I would simply be brushed off if someone asks the questions that are bound to come up. What lic class, # of jumps, rig type, you know what I mean. Personally I want to begin my AFF course asap however to be honest I just dont have the funds right now. I am looking to become familiar with a dz and when I have the available funds take my AFF and continue forward from there. Ok this being said, how would you as a skydiver welcome a nonskydiver in your midst that wants to learn, wants to make friends, of course wants to skydive when he can afford it, and overall is just a regular person ?

Is there anyone here from either SSM or Skydive Temple as these are the two major DZ's near me. If so drop me a line and lets chat about your DZ !

[virgin-burner 1]

do it like me, show up, nag an instructors ear, preferably the one that has a radio in hand, ask shitloads of stupid questions until their eyes start rolling; if you're fed up yourself, PROMISE them to come back.. that will really piss them off, especially if you DO turn up a month later to do your AFF!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[piisfish 135]

Quote

do it like me, show up, ... ask shitloads of stupid questions until their eyes start rolling; if you're fed up yourself, PROMISE them to come back.. that will really piss them off, especially if you DO turn up a month later to do your AFF!

aaaah, I understand better now.. YOU are THAT guy...

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Draggyn 0]

Quote

do it like me, show up, nag an instructors ear, preferably the one that has a radio in hand, ask shitloads of stupid questions until their eyes start rolling; if you're fed up yourself, PROMISE them to come back.. that will really piss them off, especially if you DO turn up a month later to do your AFF!

See this is not what I want to be seen as the annoying person. I want to be informed however I dont want to piss someone off.

[virgin-burner 1]

it was alexa..

come on, EVERYONE would do that!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[davelepka 4]

There are a bunch of reasons that student retention is down since the 'good old days'.

For starters, the price of skydiving has gone up. Good economy or not, and factoring in for inflation, it still costs more.

The gear is more expensive. Sure it's better, but a rig with an ADD is a big hunk of change. A reasonable used set up with an AAD will run you 4k. That's a months pay for a recent college grad, two months 20-something without a college degree.

The specialzied jumpsuits everyone 'needs' at $400 a pop. Years ago the suits were cheaper, and there no such thing as a freefly suit.

The helmets are no longer recycled motorcycle, hockey or skateboarding helmets. They're made for jumping, and run $200 and up.

The jumps cost more. It's not that they cost more, there's just more of them. Back in the day on a Cassna DZ, you'd make three or four jumps per day, and now it's twice that number or better with a turbine. I guess they do actually cost more, but you're going to 13k instead of 10K. Either way, $75 paid for a weekends worth of jumps back then, and now that's closer to $300.

The monetary point is this - jumping used to be much cheaper to get into. A guy with a little free time could afford skydiving on a part time basis. You buy your gear and jump once a month, and feel good about it. Now, it costs $7k to train, and buy some basic used gear, and that's alot of change for something you only use once a month.

Aside from the money, the jumps are different. If you jumped at a Cessna DZ, there's four slots on the plane, and if you manifested, there was a good chance that you would jump with the other guys on the load. Instant load organizer.

There was no freeflying, just RW, so everyone was doing the same thing. It ws only natural that everyone jumped together.

Now we have Otters where there are 20 some people, and everyone is already grouped up, There are freeflyers, and wingsuiters, RW, trackers, CRW guys, whatever. Anyway you slice it, it's tougher for the new guy to show up and fit into one of those groups.

Let's take it one step further, all of those freeflylers, wingsuiters, RW guys and CRW guys have all spent the untold thousands of dollars it took to get them trained, experinced and equipped for their jumps, and they're spending $100's to be there that day, and people are surprised that they only want to jump with similarly skilled jumpers?

Here's the bottom line, if you want skydiving liek it is today, with big fast airplanes, specialzed equipment and training, and a variety of disciplines, then you're going to have to accept that it's become a sport for the affluent.

The catch 22 is that alot of affluent people don't want to sleep in tents, drink beer around campfires, and shit in a porta-potty. They want catered meals, hotel suites, and yes, flushing toilets.

Skydiving has the costs of entry and partcipation of an upscale sport, and the facilities of a tractor pull.

Furthermore, the very market that skydiving needs to tap into, the 20-soemthing males who will spend every weekend at the DZ, and become the instructors of the next generaltion just can't make the grade. Where does a 20-something kid get the dough to make it happen? It's $5k to $7k to get in the door, and $500 or $600 a month to come out every weekend. What kind of money did (do) you make in your 20s?

[ibx 2]

Hey Dave,

you've probably summed it up better than anybody could.

Thanks !

[pirana 0]

I think your prices are way high; except the suit.

<> Just got a state-of-the-art RW suit for $350. It's all a noob needs for at least a couple hundred jumps. Used can easily be had for half that.
<> $7K for training?! $1500 for AFF seems more like it.
<> $4K for a used rig with AAD? Maybe not too far off, but easy enough to score it for $3K or less unless the AAD only has a year or 2 on it.
<> Even the fancy Pro-Tec is what? $50? Still jumping the one I bought new 14 years ago. Does a noob need more than that?
<> I read somewhere (I believe the source was USPA) the average fun jumper makes 70 or 80 jumps per year. Under $2K per year in the USA.

Not being a nit, but it just seems you painted a worst case financial scenario. I think $5K to get started and $2K per year for jumping is a more realistic average. If somebody has money to burn and wants all the latest in brand new condition, that is up to them, but it is not necessary and probably even wasteful since they'll be replacing most of it soon enough.

As far as 20-somethings maybe not having that much cash; where there is enough will there is a way. At our DZ they pack, mow grass, work manifest, fuel the plane etc. as they learn. I've watched a few of them move on to AFF & Tandem ratings. (I remember when they were only soooooooooooo tall). They do what it takes to stay in the sport, some making it their livelihood; most just making it so there is no out-of-pocket for their jumping.

It's certainly not a cheap sport, but the expenses are manageable if one is hungry for it.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Draggyn 0]

Not wanting to be the smart ass here...
In doing some basic research here online at DZ and other sites, I think it a little less expensive than you are making out here. For one with two of the dz's i mention here the cost is anywhere from 1300 to 1800 for AFF course, depending if you select the level 7 course or go all the way to level 14, according to the DZ's, rig rental is about 35 per jump + jump tix of 22ea to altitude. So here is how I broke things down
1800 AFF course, well take the max to cover anything special

------

SSM Course lvl 1-14
AFF Full Course Package (AFF Level 1 - 14)
(With 10% discount) $1860.00
Jump ticket to 13,000 ft $21.00
Gear Rental $30 per jump or $60 /day

------

Skydive Temple
Entire AFF Course if paid up front - $1290
AFF Course lvl 1-7
Jump to altitude $22
Gear Rental $35 a jump or $75 a day (does not include pack jobs)

-----

70 + 44 two jumps a month, rig rental and jump tickets. Yes I do understand that this is an expense till I can afford my own rig, but the point is it still lets me jump.

Jump suit ? questionable at best. I have see people use them and some disregard them entirely, well use your 400 dollar figure here simply cause I had not factored that in.

Helmet ? Depends on what you want, just enough to get by ? A Benny open face is no more than 70 bucks, I can afford this off one payday and still get by.
http://www.chutingstargear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=17_19&products_id=197

Goggles, again depending on what you want its a variable, I used 35 bucks more or less depending on what you want. Same here, easy nuff to get a pair and shelve them, till your ready.
For me these would work fine either with my contact or get the rx filled.
http://www.birdzeyewear.com/bill.php

Altimeter, again depending on what you want ? There is a brand new one here that will do the job for 100.00.

So that being said I came up under 2500 +/- bucks. So is that doable yes, but a little at a time.
Yes eventually we would like our own gear however some cannot afford a nice new pretty rig custom built so we shop around, a well loved container of choice, and the same for mains and res also, sure we will likely want a new AAD, who wouldnt, I know I will. So we piecemeal things. Get this first save for that. The way you are making this sound is that only those that are well off that dont mind getting dirty are able to afford it. I humbly dsagree, it what you want and how bad you want it. If you want it badly enough you will find a way to live without that second cup of coffee, sadly yes I am doing just that, but that is a couple bucks closer to what I WANT.

[davelepka 4]

Quote

I think your prices are way high; except the suit.

<> $7K for training?! $1500 for AFF seems more like it.
<> $4K for a used rig with AAD? Maybe not too far off, but easy enough to score it for $3K or less unless the AAD only has a year or 2 on it.

$7k was the number for training plus a rig. I don't think that's too far off the average for AFF, plus coach jumps to an A license, plus a rig w/ AAD.

In terms of the rig, and all the other gear, let's keep in mind I'm not talking about the cheapest you can find, I'm talking about the average costs for modern skydiving gear.

That's a big part of the problem is that the 'norms' in skydiving are high. Some people see the bigger picture, and are happy to buy just what they need to get by, but more people tend to want to 'fit in'. As such, a newer rig used rig, with some fancy pants options w/ an AAD runs $4K on average.

Along the same lines, those same people aren't going to be happy with a Pro Tec. Those are the same lids the students use, and they just spend thousands to not be a student anymore. Hence the need for a $200 skydiving specific helmet.

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As far as 20-somethings maybe not having that much cash; where there is enough will there is a way. At our DZ they pack, mow grass, work manifest, fuel the plane etc. as they learn

I always look at new jumpers as the 'perfect storm'. You find the guy with the right mindset and physical abilities, at the right time in his life where his family and wife/girlfriend support his skydiving, who has the money and the time to dedicate to the sport, and that's what it takes to make a new skydiver.

I know guys like you describe, in fact I was one of them, and I did whatever it took to keep me in the sky, but I was the exception and far from the rule. There will always be the exceptions, but you can't expect to build a sport on the exceptions to the rules.

Let's rememebr that this whole post was was about retaining jumpers, and building the corps of fun jumpers. It's not about finding out what is 'possible' if anything goes, it's about what is probable given the averge John Q Public trying to become the average John Q Jumper.

[davelepka 4]

Again, reference my reply one post up. You're looking at the minnimums for everything, and I'm looking at the fatter part of the bell curve.

Another thing I've learned from the few years I've been at this is that everything costs more than you think it will.

Let's not leave out the ancilary costs of jumping - rigging including repacks and AAD maintenence.

Travel costs for boogies, or even just driving to the DZ.

Equipment costs like relines, and replacing worn components, PC pouches, PC's, etc.

All of that could add up to another $1k a year. It might not sound liek alot, but you're talking about $1k less in the checking account, and another $1k you have to explain to your wife on top of all the jump money and time you want to spend at the DZ.

We're not talking about the cheapest way to do things, that's another discussion. we're talking about the average costs for the average jumper looking to get into skydiving and fit it into their lives and financial picture.

I didn't even touch on specialty items like wingsuits ($500) or camera helmets ($1000+) or competition ($$$$$ who knows) or specialty coaching ($100's) or wind tunnels ($600+). Again, none of these are 'must haves', but they are things the average jumper ends up spending money on.

There are people who want to jump in anyway possible. There are alot more who want to jump, and be like their buddies, and do the things they do, and have the things they have.